Lindsey and Owen Hospitalized

[LaFlamaBlanca]

I assume you missed these posts:

You guys caught me. I'm ousted. I belong to the hate group of psychotic demon possessed smelly people that cure their erectile dysfunction over tweets of athletes going to the hospital for rhabdo. Didn't realize I posted in the Willfully Ignorant of Humor thread.

I looked for gifs that said "it is obvious that the previous coaching staff had this team woefully unprepared for the entirety of the 2017 season, in all facets. It is clear that the new administrations approach resulted in quite the opposite for a team in central Florida. Now for those who have the mental capacity to ponder the likelihood of two things being correct at once, the following conclusion shall be more than adequate. Riley's football team is not acclimated to work out at a championship level and Duval overestimated the stamina of some of his participants given the handicap of training under an insufficient regime the previous year. That doesn't mean that the new staff is doing something systematically incorrect but instead made a mistake" but I thought that might be a little on the nose, don't ya think?  

And to the second post, I will use this analogy. Imagine if Rosie O'donnell posted a video, telling her youtube subscribers that she hates when people make fun of her weight in the comment section. It is guaranteed that the first comment will be "When Rosie walks in front of my television I miss 3 shows" or "Rosie so fat she gave Dracula diabetes" -- Everything is a joking matter or nothing is and the best way to ensure that something IS joked about is to say that it shouldn't be. 

Now, back to keyboard warriors beating the crap out of straw-men they constructed. MUSH! 

 

[Stumpy1]

Interesting..

I think that if you're able to do three sets of 10 reps on a squat, it wasn't that heavy. Or you're squatting high.

My understanding is that they are doing circuit training with no breaks between lifts.   I'm guessing they are doing 3 cycles of 10 for squats. 

 

[kchusker_chris]

Front page of CNN....

 

[Zeke]

Front page of CNN....

#fakenews     :thumbs

 

[RedSavage]

Front page of CNN....

Only about half a page above an article titled "Cuckolding can be positive for some couples..."

Yea, I'm gonna go ahead and not worry about that

 

[khaake]

Who are you talking to? Me? It's not that I don't think it's a serious matter. My point is that it wasn't intentional and they did take multiple precautions to try and prevent it. It was an accident. No one tried to run these two young men into the ground.

I agree with that, and with the statement that sometimes s#%t happens despite all precautions, but some were trying to minimize what happened here and it rubbed me the wrong way. With that said, I can also see how this could more easily happen when the staff is new and doesn't know the athletes, and vise-versa. It probably would be easier to tell how much is too much if you had a history with the players and knew how they typically respond to stuff.

 

[DaveH]

My understanding is that they are doing circuit training with no breaks between lifts.   I'm guessing they are doing 3 cycles of 10 for squats. 

Sure, I just thought it was funny that the guy in the tweet called them "heavy"

 

[307husker]

I generally agree, but I think maybe they found a hint where this line lies for some. I hope they have some copious notes with regard to what led up to this.

That being said, I don't think productive training requires knowing where this line is. I have a feeling that approaching this line doesn't really help elicit the adaptation you're looking for and more than staying a good distance away.

I'd only additionally mention that while yes, some muscle damage is a result of productive training, muscle destruction is not. The -lysis in Rhabdomyolysis almost literally means death or at least leading to cell death. It would be good to stay away from that  

Damage and destruction are not clinical terms and have little value in differentiating between what would be expected with high intensity training and the medical condition of Rhabdomyolisis.  Eccentric contraction, resistance exercise used to develop strength, and speed-strength training methods, are all associated with rhabdo.  I don't think you can train an elite (hopefully) Division I football team without some risk of this situation.  Reasonable caution should be exerrcised, and it sounds like it was.

Football training isn't worth developing rhabdomyolysis, but, IMO, the nature of football training at a high level necessitates risking developing rhabdomyolysis...  

 

[ladyhawke]

The thing here is that the idea that these guys could get even remotely *close* to rhabdo suggests that the programming is inappropriate. How many players did not technically have rhabdo, but were close?

These kids are hand picked athletes, so as usual their natural ability will cover up the BS that is prescribed to them.

Sure, I get it when some CrossFit hero at your local box gets rhabdo because his dime store coach doesn't know what he's doing. But we pay these guys a TON of money. We should expect better and so should their parents. 

Wouldn't it depend on the current fitness level of the student(s) athlete involved?  This was a good explanation of what happened: http://www.omaha.com/huskers/football/nebraska-coach-scott-frost-confirms-two-husker-players-were-hospitalized/article_d5929674-53a7-5d90-803e-6b4e9205ee60.html

 

[DaveH]

Damage and destruction are not clinical terms and have little value in differentiating between what would be expected with high intensity training and the medical condition of Rhabdomyolisis.

Good call.

Football training isn't worth developing rhabdomyolysis, but, IMO, the nature of football training at a high level necessitates risking developing rhabdomyolysis...  

I hear ya. I guess I'm not so sure about the necessity of the risk I guess. I'd think you'd be able to program at any level without a significantly elevated risk of hospitalization.  Maybe part of this is programming for individuals vs programming for the whole team at once. You're sort of assuming, by programming for the whole team or at least wide swaths of people, that they're at similar levels of training already. Due to time constraints that I'm sure exist here, programming individually may not be practical, but maybe it is.

Wouldn't it depend on the current fitness level of the student(s) athlete involved?  This was a good explanation of what happened: http://www.omaha.com/huskers/football/nebraska-coach-scott-frost-confirms-two-husker-players-were-hospitalized/article_d5929674-53a7-5d90-803e-6b4e9205ee60.html

Yea, I think it would for sure.

 

[ladyhawke]

Good call.

I hear ya. I guess I'm not so sure about the necessity of the risk I guess. I'd think you'd be able to program at any level without a significantly elevated risk of hospitalization.  Maybe part of this is programming for individuals vs programming for the whole team at once. You're sort of assuming, by programming for the whole team or at least wide swaths of people, that they're at similar levels of training already. Due to time constraints that I'm sure exist here, programming individually may not be practical, but maybe it is.

Yea, I think it would for sure.

In the article I cited Coach Frost said: ""The workout that got them in trouble was a 32- to-36-minute weight workout. All they were doing is lifting. The workout was supposed to be longer than that, but Zach (Duval) cut it down to try and break the kids in, and I think the majority of the team reacted just fine, but there were a couple of kids who reacted poorly to it."  Then he also added: ""Zach Duval, my strength and conditioning coach, he’s been through transitions like this about five times and I have complete trust in him," Frost said. "When we got in we were a little concerned about the conditioning of the team, so they did some baseline testing, some body composition work, and actually, for how Zach would normally roll out the conditioning program, he actually backed off that quite a bit, and we still had a problem. So there was a lot of attention paid to how this would go, and as much as we tried to be attentive to how they needed to start, we still made a mistake."

  It sounds to me like they were trying to be very careful and mindful of the current state of the players, don't you?

 

[ladyhawke]

And this is after duval scaled back the workouts by 20% .  

From the article I read he had scaled back before they even started the workouts! ("Zach Duval, my strength and conditioning coach, he’s been through transitions like this about five times and I have complete trust in him," Frost said. "When we got in we were a little concerned about the conditioning of the team, so they did some baseline testing, some body composition work, and actually, for how Zach would normally roll out the conditioning program, he actually backed off that quite a bit, and we still had a problem. So there was a lot of attention paid to how this would go, and as much as we tried to be attentive to how they needed to start, we still made a mistake.")

http://www.omaha.com/huskers/football/nebraska-coach-scott-frost-confirms-two-husker-players-were-hospitalized/article_d5929674-53a7-5d90-803e-6b4e9205ee60.html

 

[DaveH]

In the article I cited Coach Frost said: ""The workout that got them in trouble was a 32- to-36-minute weight workout. All they were doing is lifting. The workout was supposed to be longer than that, but Zach (Duval) cut it down to try and break the kids in, and I think the majority of the team reacted just fine, but there were a couple of kids who reacted poorly to it."  Then he also added: ""Zach Duval, my strength and conditioning coach, he’s been through transitions like this about five times and I have complete trust in him," Frost said. "When we got in we were a little concerned about the conditioning of the team, so they did some baseline testing, some body composition work, and actually, for how Zach would normally roll out the conditioning program, he actually backed off that quite a bit, and we still had a problem. So there was a lot of attention paid to how this would go, and as much as we tried to be attentive to how they needed to start, we still made a mistake."

  It sounds to me like they were trying to be very careful and mindful of the current state of the players, don't you?

Sure it sounds like they tried but think about it this way.

If something would have really gone bad and a player was unable to play again or his life was otherwise permanently effected, would the answer of "well, we tried" be good enough? When it comes down to it, there's really no excuse. Hopefully they learned something. 

 

[ladyhawke]

Sure it sounds like they tried but think about it this way.

If something would have really gone bad and a player was unable to play again or his life was otherwise permanently effected, would the answer of "well, we tried" be good enough? When it comes down to it, there's really no excuse. Hopefully they learned something. 

What else do you think they could've done? 

 

[bugeater17]

Based on the facts as reported in the OWH, some responsibility has to be put on the players in this situation. Yes, the staff could have done a better job at transitioning the players into the high intensity work-outs (even though they did back off initial plans). However, if you are a college athlete and can't get through a 35 minute workout you are not in shape and did not use the month in advance to adequately prepare yourself for off-season workouts. Perhaps the NCAA should look at allowing more oversight/involvement of training staffs by non-bowl bound teams during December relating to strength and conditioning programs.