Duval's S&C - Year 2

[Mierin]

I think a lot of the supposed increases in strength were due to different styles of movements. In my opinion the front squat is far more you useful in football than a back squat but the numbers are smaller, especially amongst novice and intermediate lifters. Technique is certainly more sensitive in a front squat which limits a lot of non barbell athletes.

I don't think it was only that. I remember calculating it, but Farmer had given his front squat and back squat weights. And the back squat weight was an increase of much more than just the conversion amount. He's only one player but from everything we've heard on what they were doing under Riley, I think it's pretty clear they're stronger now.

 

[Mavric]

I think a lot of the supposed increases in strength were due to different styles of movements. In my opinion the front squat is far more you useful in football than a back squat but the numbers are smaller, especially amongst novice and intermediate lifters. Technique is certainly more sensitive in a front squat which limits a lot of non barbell athletes.

Honest question:  what makes the front squat better?

 

[Stumpy1]

Front squats work the quads and your core more then back squats do.   Back squats work your hammies and glutes more.  

IMO,  I don't think one is better then the other.   I think both should be done no matter what if you want to build great leg strength.    

 

[husker_fan_from_sweden]

Helpful and informative video if anyone enjoys squats while we are on the topic. 

 

[suh_fan93]

[No message]

 

[307husker]

Honest question:  what makes the front squat better?

In football, the resistance is generally encountered in front of the athlete, especially linemen.

Would emphasize back squat and deadlift more in my speed athletes. Posterior chain builds speed.  

Different positions have different requirements for s&c.

 

[Mavric]

In football, the resistance is generally encountered in front of the athlete, especially linemen.

Would emphasize back squat and deadlift more in my speed athletes. Posterior chain builds speed.  

Different positions have different requirements for s&c.

I guess I'm not really seeing that correlation.  Yes, the resistance is encountered in the front.  But you are also leaning forward such that your center of mass is in front of your feet.  In that aspect, back squats would more closely approximate the body positioning of facing resistance from the front.  When you do front squats, your shoulders would be farther back, leaning relatively away from resistance from the front which is the opposite of what you'd want to do.  

 

[307husker]

I guess I'm not really seeing that correlation.  Yes, the resistance is encountered in the front.  But you are also leaning forward such that your center of mass is in front of your feet.  In that aspect, back squats would more closely approximate the body positioning of facing resistance from the front.  When you do front squats, your shoulders would be farther back, leaning relatively away from resistance from the front which is the opposite of what you'd want to do.  

Think force vectors instead of body position. A front squat more closely mimics the force production needed to block. It's also safer, though it does require more skill which isn't always easier for the s&c staff with 100+ novice to intermediate lifters.

 

[Hedley Lamarr]

Lets just all support whatever Duval does because he is dang good at it 

 

[zeWilbur]

I guess I'm not really seeing that correlation.  Yes, the resistance is encountered in the front.  But you are also leaning forward such that your center of mass is in front of your feet.  In that aspect, back squats would more closely approximate the body positioning of facing resistance from the front.  When you do front squats, your shoulders would be farther back, leaning relatively away from resistance from the front which is the opposite of what you'd want to do.  

307Husker is absolutely right about the vectors. It might be easier to think about it in a different way though. Here's a way I can get my kids to wrap their heads around it (so it is clearly oversimplified).Front squats have more force generated through front/mid foot, back squats through the heel. When pushing on object are you pushing off the ball of your foot or your heels? 

 

[Mavric]

Think force vectors instead of body position. A front squat more closely mimics the force production needed to block. It's also safer, though it does require more skill which isn't always easier for the s&c staff with 100+ novice to intermediate lifters.

Yeah, that makes sense.  Thanks.

307Husker is absolutely right about the vectors. It might be easier to think about it in a different way though. Here's a way I can get my kids to wrap their heads around it (so it is clearly oversimplified).Front squats have more force generated through front/mid foot, back squats through the heel. When pushing on object are you pushing off the ball of your foot or your heels? 

That still seems backwards to me.  Granted, I've never done front squats.  But that's going back to body positioning.  If the weight is on the front, your body has to be relatively leaned back, so that would be more weight on the heel.  If the weight is on your back, your body has to lean forward so that would be more weight on the toe.  Of course, you can always adjust your body positioning but that seems like it would be somewhat challenging to be lifting a maximum amount while trying to keep balanced in a counter-intuitive way.   :dunno

 

[Undone]

Mark Rippetoe describes the angle of the barbell needing to bisect the exact middle of the foot in both low bar backsquats and front squats. I have to disagree with the "ball of the foot" thing with regards to any squat lift; if you're centering the barbell over the front of the foot, in my own humble opinion you're doing it wrong. Bar should basically be bisecting your shoe laces in any squat variation.

One thing that has been abandoned over the years in football strength training is the standing overhead press. The bench press has replaced it in importance which to me is one really disappointing factor. Think about a lineman's body position as he's gaining leverage and leaning forward; if only the bench press is done in the weight room, the shoulders/triceps are neglected in favor of more biceps-centric training. I wonder if Duvall does the overhead press with the guys, I'm interested in that.

This is just gym nerd theory stuff though. I'm not taking it all that seriously one way or the other.   

 

[zeWilbur]

That still seems backwards to me.  Granted, I've never done front squats.  But that's going back to body positioning.  If the weight is on the front, your body has to be relatively leaned back, so that would be more weight on the heel.  If the weight is on your back, your body has to lean forward so that would be more weight on the toe.  Of course, you can always adjust your body positioning but that seems like it would be somewhat challenging to be lifting a maximum amount while trying to keep balanced in a counter-intuitive way.   :dunno

I get how that part might be seem backward. And maybe the only way it will click is to just do a couple and feel how your body reacts different;y to each. Regardless, if you are in a 3-point stance doing a back squat is standing straight up. Doing a front squat in that position will lunge you forward.

 

[zeWilbur]

Mark Rippetoe describes the angle of the barbell needing to bisect the exact middle of the foot in both low bar backsquats and front squats. I have to disagree with the "ball of the foot" thing with regards to any squat lift; if you're centering the barbell over the front of the foot, in my own humble opinion you're doing it wrong. Bar should basically be bisecting your shoe laces.

One thing that has been abandoned over the years in football strength training is the standing overhead press. The bench press has replaced it in importance which to me is one really disappointing factor. Think about a lineman's body position as he's gaining leverage and leaning forward; if only the bench press is done in the weight room, the shoulders/triceps are neglected in favor of more biceps-centric training. I wonder if Duvall does the overhead press with the guys, I'm interested in that.

This is just gym nerd theory stuff though. I'm not taking it all that seriously one way or the other.   

No worries.  :cheers

I think this is just a miscommunication as I never mentioned where the bar sits over your feet. Or certainly didn't intend to imply a change there at least. At no point am I suggesting people squat on the balls of their feet. Just used an example that if you are pushing something forward (not squatting) look at what your body is physically doing to determine the muscle groups involved in doing it. Firing out of a 3-point stance is more horizontal effort where you stay on the balls of your feet going forward. So you do that by activating your quads and driving forward. That is a front chain heavy effort. Front squatting uses more front chain than back squatting. A side effect of engaging your quads is that you also engage your shins and more stabilizers in the foot. That changes the feel of a front squat to a front/mid-foot feeling vs heel feeling. Though too far towards the front of the foot means you are falling forward and life is about to go very badly! Fun exercise, if your kinesthetic awareness is decent, is to flex your butt and see where you feel it in your feet. Then do the same with your quads. That's where if get the front/mid vs rear comparison. Maybe just using 'mid' instead of 'front/mid' would be less confusing.

Also, I have seen video of the team doing incline press and some overhead with dumbbells so they are doing something functional in the regard. 

 

[Undone]

No worries.  :cheers

I think this is just a miscommunication as I never mentioned where the bar sits over your feet. Or certainly didn't intend to imply a change there at least. At no point am I suggesting people squat on the balls of their feet. Just used an example that if you are pushing something forward (not squatting) look at what your body is physically doing to determine the muscle groups involved in doing it. Firing out of a 3-point stance is more horizontal effort where you stay on the balls of your feet going forward. So you do that by activating your quads and driving forward. That is a front chain heavy effort. Front squatting uses more front chain than back squatting. A side effect of engaging your quads is that you also engage your shins and more stabilizers in the foot. That changes the feel of a front squat to a front/mid-foot feeling vs heel feeling. Though too far towards the front of the foot means you are falling forward and life is about to go very badly! Fun exercise, if your kinesthetic awareness is decent, is to flex your butt and see where you feel it in your feet. Then do the same with your quads. That's where if get the front/mid vs rear comparison. Maybe just using 'mid' instead of 'front/mid' would be less confusing.

Also, I have seen video of the team doing incline press and some overhead with dumbbells so they are doing something functional in the regard. 

Thanks for the confirmation on overhead press. And I think I did misinterpret you on the squatting position, sorry about that. Your write-up makes complete sense.

To put it another way, doing both back squat and front squat is important for explosive, athletic strength-related lower body power in certain sports in the same way that doing BOTH bench press and overhead press is important for explosive, athletic strenght-related upper body power in certain sports.

On a slightly related note, I always think it's hilarious when you see a dude with massive front delts from all of the excessive benching he's done but then has underdeveloped rear delts. It's the classic "mirror muscle" gym routine.