Game of Thrones - Please no spoilers from ASOIAF
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whateveritis1224
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Thread I read on twitter the other day about why this ending isn't working. Essentially there are two types of storytellers. The plotters and I'm forgetting the other type. Plotters know the exact beats of the entire story, and while it is more coherent from start to finish, it can make characters feel wooden as they are forced from plot point to plot point. The other type just has the spine with like 2 or 3 plot points. They then write the story and make the characters act naturally to get to the minimal plot points they want. This can cause the story to meander into insignificant plots or ones that do not matter to the overall story. GRRM is the second type (which is why the books have become bloated and he's written himself into a hole he's having trouble getting out of), while GOT showrunners are the first type. So you have characters that act naturally for the first part of the story, but then in the second half you have them do stupid stuff to get them to the end they want.
The writing also feels like they want to have their cake and eat it. They wanted the heroic Dany with all of the "foreshadowing" being followed up by making her actions feel triumphant, no matter how sketchy said actions were. So now they have her do something so reprehensible so that when/if she dies this week the killer is 100% justified. You can't have someone getting a lucky shot on Rhaegal during the siege, because then Dany would have a "good" reason to torch the entire city. Its the same reason why Dany also couldn't attack just the Red Keep (which makes way more sense than attacking the entire city). We had to see her as a villain even though the actions she took were something she actively avoided throughout the entire show.
The writing also feels like they want to have their cake and eat it. They wanted the heroic Dany with all of the "foreshadowing" being followed up by making her actions feel triumphant, no matter how sketchy said actions were. So now they have her do something so reprehensible so that when/if she dies this week the killer is 100% justified. You can't have someone getting a lucky shot on Rhaegal during the siege, because then Dany would have a "good" reason to torch the entire city. Its the same reason why Dany also couldn't attack just the Red Keep (which makes way more sense than attacking the entire city). We had to see her as a villain even though the actions she took were something she actively avoided throughout the entire show.
GSG
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whateveritis1224
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swmohusker
Active member
I have enjoyed this season. No matter what they did with this season people would complain one way or another. 8 Season is too short, but 10 could be too long. People were mad that not enough people died at Battle of Winterfell, then some were mad that too many died at King's Landing. Many wanted Cersei to die a horrific death and thought Dany should only go just a little bit crazy. Can't wait to sit down this Sunday and enjoy watching how they finish it up.
Mierin
Donor
The difference between soldiers and civilians and who killed them shouldn’t require much nuance to recognize. Nor should it be difficult to notice that everything from the Winterfell episode indicated that the armies were decimated. Then suddenly the next day new replacements popped up.
I also haven’t seen anyone saying Dany should have gone “just a little bit crazy.” That isn’t the issue.
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swmohusker
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Mierin
Donor
It's not relevant whether they needed the armies, because that has nothing to do with the problem people had with it. Compared to a bunch of other issues, it's a small one, but one thing happened in that episode, then they tried to pretend it didn't in the next. The armies were decimated just to make it look like it was hopeless during that episode, then suddenly they said "Just kidding." The character development problem is a much more important one.
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GSG
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Mike Mcdee
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So I listened to a podcast about how the turn that Dany took was an example of how good GRRM is at writing. He gives you this young princess who is first abused by her brother, then married off to a war monger and raped, then betrayed by a witch who kills her now loving husband and unborn child. This is all in just the first book/season. She later frees a city full of slaves only to have some of those same folks turn on her because they actually liked the way things were. George sets her up to be this sympathetic character. Someone who we as readers and audience members can root for with ease. The problem is her motivation. Sure she does some benevolent things along the journey back to Westeros. Heck she even looses one of her dragons/children in defeating the Night King and saving all of man kind.
Her primary motivation is revenge. It has been since a child with her bother telling her stories about how her family was wronged and all the things they would do to those who tried to destroy their family. When she finally has battle won, she isn't content with just the throne. She seeks vengeance. She takes what is hers with Fire and Blood. The Hound even tells the viewers what happens to those who only seek to use vengeance as motivation. He warns Arya that there is only one way that path ends, in death.
In the end, GRRM got us to see how a super villain is created: someone with unmatched power whose main goal is revenge. He got us to root for her, love her, and even name some of our pets/kids after her.
Her primary motivation is revenge. It has been since a child with her bother telling her stories about how her family was wronged and all the things they would do to those who tried to destroy their family. When she finally has battle won, she isn't content with just the throne. She seeks vengeance. She takes what is hers with Fire and Blood. The Hound even tells the viewers what happens to those who only seek to use vengeance as motivation. He warns Arya that there is only one way that path ends, in death.
In the end, GRRM got us to see how a super villain is created: someone with unmatched power whose main goal is revenge. He got us to root for her, love her, and even name some of our pets/kids after her.
RedDenver
Active member
Good post.
The problem with the show however is that if Dany is truly motivated by revenge, then she wouldn't have let Jaime off so easily. And that was just a few episodes before she then exacts revenge on... innocent people who she's trying to rule. They don't setup how she could take vengeance on the wrong people when she had a clear opportunity to take vengeance on someone her brother told stories about when they were children. Plus they have the exact same issue of why Dany attacked the populace of the city instead of just destroying the Red Keep. The show writers bungled her character arc in service of getting quickly from Night King to Cersei to Dany as the main villain.
IMO, they could have told the same plot but done the villains as Night King one season, followed by Cersei one season, followed by Dany in the last season. (Or some version of that.) That gives time to setup the switches, develop character motivations, and play out the betrayals and double-crosses and such that lead to Dany destroying King's Landing. Then we'd also have more than a single episode to explore Dany as the villain and the reactions to that. (I guess it's possible that the writers could pull the ultimate surprise and have another season after spending so much time saying this is the last one, but I strongly doubt it.)
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whateveritis1224
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Those are all logical points, but in context all of her victories were shown as victories with no lingering “madness” shown. In fact she spent the entirety of the show, until this last episode, actively trying to avoid civilian casualties.
IMO a better way to end would be the Rhaegal is hit by a scorpion after the bells ring, which leads to civilians celebrating, which leads to Dany torching the city. Or that as soon as the bells ring and she’s staring at the red keep, she decides everything wasn’t worth it. She goes straight to the keep, destroys it down to the foundation then goes back to dragonstone.
The writing as is feels like they wanted zero grey area. When Dany turned, there had to be no going back.
knapplc
Well-known member
While I think the whole 8th season is flawed, I'm genuinely curious how they end this. Tons of possibilities.
The biggest problem is what to do with the superweapon, Drogon. There are no more dragons, so he's a dead end as a historical point. If he lives, he is just going to wreck all of Westeros, eventually. He likely dies this episode, but why? How?
A couple of ideas that could help resurrect Daenerys' formerly good name:
Daenerys is horrified at what she did. She takes the Unsullied & Dothraki and goes back to Essos to rule. She's said it several times that she isn't loved in Westeros.
Daenerys is horrified at what she did. She takes Drogon and they suicide into a mountainside or into the ocean.
Or:
Jon kills Daenerys, then dies battling Drogon. Drogon takes the Iron Throne. (this is unlikely
)
Sansa and the armies of the North battle Daenerys, the Unsullied and the Dothraki. Jon dies battling Daenerys/Drogon. Arya's weapon, designed by Gendry (did you forget about that?) kills Drogon. Daenerys dies in the crash. Sansa takes the Iron Throne (Sansa winning has been my default position for a while). She marries Tyrion.
Gendry, the dark horse, comes out of hiding and makes his claim to the throne. The commoners of Westeros, tired of war, follow a Baratheon who was raised among them.
So many possibilities still out there. I think D&D have a chance to redeem themselves. We'll see.
The biggest problem is what to do with the superweapon, Drogon. There are no more dragons, so he's a dead end as a historical point. If he lives, he is just going to wreck all of Westeros, eventually. He likely dies this episode, but why? How?
A couple of ideas that could help resurrect Daenerys' formerly good name:
Daenerys is horrified at what she did. She takes the Unsullied & Dothraki and goes back to Essos to rule. She's said it several times that she isn't loved in Westeros.
Daenerys is horrified at what she did. She takes Drogon and they suicide into a mountainside or into the ocean.
Or:
Jon kills Daenerys, then dies battling Drogon. Drogon takes the Iron Throne. (this is unlikely
)Sansa and the armies of the North battle Daenerys, the Unsullied and the Dothraki. Jon dies battling Daenerys/Drogon. Arya's weapon, designed by Gendry (did you forget about that?) kills Drogon. Daenerys dies in the crash. Sansa takes the Iron Throne (Sansa winning has been my default position for a while). She marries Tyrion.
Gendry, the dark horse, comes out of hiding and makes his claim to the throne. The commoners of Westeros, tired of war, follow a Baratheon who was raised among them.
So many possibilities still out there. I think D&D have a chance to redeem themselves. We'll see.
Mike Mcdee
New member
I think her vengeance was tempered a bit in the first half of the season. Jaime being let off was before she lost half the Unsullied, Half her Dothraki, another dragon died and her most trusted advisor is beheaded in front of her out of spite. All of those events were the culmination of her turn to being the new bad. I know this season has had it's flaws, and I'm clearly compromised as a fan, but there is good bits still to pick out and enjoy.