NBA Arguments Tangent Thread

Well one of the ways the game has changed is that you don't have to get pounded under the basket. You have guards, forwards, and even centers who can work the perimeter and knock down threes, daring the defenders to leave the paint, then attacking the paint when they do. If your badass bigmen can't hit free throws, they'll be on the bench in the fourth quarter. 

That same Knicks or Pistons team that wears you down can also get buried in a hurry by a sharpshooting team. It's taken Charles Barkley and Shaquille O'Neil years to accept this, but they finally came around. Teams that live by the three also die by the three. The Bulls and Warriors didn't have to rely on a single style. 

And for all the finesse, there's still a lot of legitimate bad-assery in the NBA.  I've been watching since I adopted the 1972 Lakers as a middle school student in Nebraska, and there's some exceptional talent and team-play going on right now. 

 
I think the biggest thing to remember is that NOW the players get it, they know they are the product and they collude with each other to make sure that they stay on the court.  

It is brilliant really, why play defense on each other when scoring gets you the big contract?  Why pound each other when that shortens your career?  Why do hard fouls when it could hurt a dude.  

They have changed the way the game is played because they were smart about it and got together to make it all about offense and essentially getting rid of true bigs, which opens up more opportunities for drive and dish.  

If you are KD what good does it do you to hard foul that dude on the Bucks that was trying to guard him (Tucker?), get in his grill a bit, sure, but they gain nothing by hurting each other.  

They took the power, as they should, they now control the power, as they should.  

Hockey players still beat the s#!t out of each other and literally fight 

Football players still try to kill each other even though the league sort of tries to stop it

Baseball players still throw at each others heads.

Basketball players were like, why the F should we beat the s#!t out of each other when everyone wants to see 121-119 games.  Not the old Spurs-Knicks games





Game 1


Wednesday, June 16


New York Knicks


77–89 (0–1)


San Antonio Spurs




Game 2


Friday, June 18


New York Knicks


67–80 (0–2)


San Antonio Spurs




Game 3


Monday, June 21


San Antonio Spurs


81–89 (2–1)


New York Knicks




Game 4


Wednesday, June 23


San Antonio Spurs


96–89 (3–1)


New York Knicks




Game 5


Friday, June 25


San Antonio Spurs


78–77 (4–1)


New York Knicks




 
teachercd said:
I think the biggest thing to remember is that NOW the players get it, they know they are the product and they collude with each other to make sure that they stay on the court.  

It is brilliant really, why play defense on each other when scoring gets you the big contract?  Why pound each other when that shortens your career?  Why do hard fouls when it could hurt a dude.  

They have changed the way the game is played because they were smart about it and got together to make it all about offense and essentially getting rid of true bigs, which opens up more opportunities for drive and dish.  

If you are KD what good does it do you to hard foul that dude on the Bucks that was trying to guard him (Tucker?), get in his grill a bit, sure, but they gain nothing by hurting each other.  

They took the power, as they should, they now control the power, as they should.  

Hockey players still beat the s#!t out of each other and literally fight 

Football players still try to kill each other even though the league sort of tries to stop it

Baseball players still throw at each others heads.

Basketball players were like, why the F should we beat the s#!t out of each other when everyone wants to see 121-119 games.  Not the old Spurs-Knicks games





Game 1


Wednesday, June 16


New York Knicks


77–89 (0–1)


San Antonio Spurs




Game 2


Friday, June 18


New York Knicks


67–80 (0–2)


San Antonio Spurs




Game 3


Monday, June 21


San Antonio Spurs


81–89 (2–1)


New York Knicks




Game 4


Wednesday, June 23


San Antonio Spurs


96–89 (3–1)


New York Knicks




Game 5


Friday, June 25


San Antonio Spurs


78–77 (4–1)


New York Knicks
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Eh, defense remains a high priority in the NBA, even if the offensive numbers go up. Those Knicks and Pistons teams specialized in slowed down half-court offenses, which really bring the scores down. Almost no one can get away with shirking on defense these days like Iverson did or James Harden used to. Kyrie Irving maybe. But coaches will pull a three point sharpshooter if he's getting torched on D.

The best teams play good defense, maybe better than ever, given the changes in the game. There are still tons of hard fouls. Some hard fouls now come with flagrant foul penalties, but that's hardly stopped them. I've seen intentional elbows to the face in virtually every playoff game, and guys hitting the floor left and right. At least half of those are shameless flops that pander to the refs, but that happened in the good ol days, too. Wouldn't mind them going away.

Collusion is a real stretch. I don't think these guys hate each other as much as they used to, but that's not a bad thing. In game collisions and cheap shots can take players out of a season or career. But that still happens. Basketball has the strictest rules and penalties, but there are still near brawls. Patrick Beverly, Dwight Howard and Dennis Shroeder are going to get punched in the head one of these days, and deserve it. 

I don't miss Bill Laimbeer. 

Hockey fights never cease to amaze me. They are literally felonies if anyone wanted to press charges. 

But at least they're entertaining. I'm not so big on MLB's "unwritten rules" that okay a pitcher throwing heat at a player's head as payback for a bat flip or slow home run trot.

 
Not collusion in a bad way, in a smart way.  

Players know they have the power and they are using it.  Like when they try and form super teams.  

 
B.B. Hemingway said:
Lol. You and Teach having been team-lifting the goalposts through this entire discussion.

Too be clear, we're both arguing something that can't be proven.

Well.... Somebody was guarding Barkley. If they couldn't stop Barkley, there's at least a (likely) chance that Curry could go off on him.

And it is childhood bias. You're acting like the 90's Bulls were untouchable.
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Oh good, now you still don't have an argument so you're just throwing the "you're doing it too" out there.  I haven't even set any goalposts, let alone move them.

It's always fun to assume it's only the other side that has the bias and not yourself.

 
Mavric said:
Oh good, now you still don't have an argument so you're just throwing the "you're doing it too" out there.  I haven't even set any goalposts, let alone move them.

It's always fun to assume it's only the other side that has the bias and not yourself.
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I grew up a huge Jordan fan, and am arguing in the favor of a team (Warriors) I actively rooted against in every Finals appearance they made, so.... Explain that bias. 

I'm just choosing to acknowledge the undeniable truth that athletes don't evolve backwards. Collectively, the best players in any sport are undoubtedly better than those of the previous generation. That's how evolution works. That's how sports work. Sure, Jordan would still be amazing in today's game. Pippen would be good to. But after that? How many of those guys play minutes in today's NBA? Rodman? Probably. Though, his clear offensive ineptitude would limit his minutes. 

Hell, Steve Kerr made an argument this week that Durant was more talented than Jordan, and he was on those Bulls teams. Seems to be a more legitimate opinion than  that of a couple Jordan superfans hanging onto their childhood heros a little too tightly.

 
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B.B. Hemingway said:
I grew up a huge Jordan fan, and am arguing in the favor of a team (Warriors) I actively rooted against in every Finals appearance they made, so.... Explain that bias. 

I'm just choosing to acknowledge the undeniable truth that athletes don't evolve backwards. Collectively, the best players in any sport are undoubtedly better than those of the previous generation. That's how evolution works. That's how sports work. Sure, Jordan would still be amazing in today's game. Pippen would be good to. But after that? How many of those guys play minutes in today's NBA? Rodman? Probably. Though, his clear offensive ineptitude would limit his minutes. 

Hell, Steve Kerr made an argument this week that Durant was more talented than Jordan, and he was on those Bulls teams. Seems to be a more legitimate opinion than  that of a couple Jordan superfans hanging onto their childhood heros a little too tightly.
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Me too. Huge Jordan fan. How could you not be?

Also a huge Warrior fan who was rooting for Durant to fall on his face for leaving the team and pairing up with my least favorite NBA player plus another head case who poisoned his previous teams.  So watching Durant carry the Nets by himself against the Bucks, I had to admit he remained a singular talent. Losing the series didn't really change that. 

Bulls vs. Warriors is a fun argument. At least it should be. Not sure I'd put money on it myself, but the notion that the individual match-ups favor the Bulls doesn't reflect how the games would actually be played. As for the evolution of the game, there are soooo many long, tall players these days who can handle the ball and pull up for threes or mid-rangers that I just don't think Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, Charles Barkley or Kevin McHale would enjoy the same defensive rep. 

 
https://www.nba.com/news/usa-mens-basketball-exhibition-australia-july-12

So, is it fair to NOW say that these current players are not that f#&%ing amazing???

First they get beat by a team that was a 30 point dog, then they get routed by Australia.  Is there maybe a chance that if some dude from Nigeria and some dude from Australia could shut down these "stars" that maybe, just maybe, Pip and Dennis could have?

 
Watching Coach Pop after these lame losses is sad.  Him trying to tell the media that the US has never blown out these teams and that the games are always competitive and close...

 
teachercd said:
Sort of a lot of silence, but, that sort of makes sense.
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