NBA 2023-24

[admo]

I'll never understand the NBA and the cultural norm of firing successful coaches.

Maybe pay more attention?  

And "successful coaches" ?  Ha, that is a subjective response if I ever heard one.  Because your opinion of successful coaches is based off feelings, influence and perception.  Which is strange.  I mean, when a coach has a talented team that wins regularly in the regular season and finishes the year overmatched in the playoffs..... when the playoffs and championships matter the most to competitive players, the fans and the organization........ then the coach fails and loses all credibility for his "successfulness".  

I think it would be helpful to understand the big picture, the window of opportunity for the players on a team, the contracts, the trades, the regular season positioning and ultimately how you finish in the post season.  

Tyronn Lue failed.  Budenholzer failed.  Doc Rivers failed.  Monty Williams failed.  And to a degree, Darvin Hamm will have a year or feal the hot seat too.  Popovich tanked and tanked and tanked for the #1 pick.  Jason Kidd is not an X and O's guy either, and he too is on the hot seat.  Boston's Mazulla is another one who just watches the game and despite a nice regular season record, added nothing for his team on the biggest stage.  

Winning the regular season means nothing.  It kind of helps with home court, but as we seen over the years, it's not automatic anymore.  Playoff coaching matters a lot when it comes to success for the organization, the team, and the fans.  Not regular season wins against bad teams.

 

[HuskermanMike]

I don't think the Celtics fire Joe M. If they did they would get their 4th coach in 4 years.

1 Stevens lost his enjoyment of coaching and took an executive role.

2 Ime Udoka lost in the finals with a 2-1 lead. Then did his shenanigans.

3 Joe M. took over just before training camp and had his top assistants leave. One for GT before the playoffs.

I believe he gets another chance, especially so he can hire his own staff. I mean the other coaches did not win a championship either. I think Udoka probably gets them to the finals this year. The only argument is the Celtics Championship window will be closing. If they get an elite coach I would consider it. Not sure what elite coach would want it besides Monty Williams. However, they could hire him as the lead assistant to help Joe M. manage the locker room and make adjustments. 

 

[Lorewarn]

Maybe pay more attention?  

And "successful coaches" ?  Ha, that is a subjective response if I ever heard one.  Because your opinion of successful coaches is based off feelings, influence and perception.  Which is strange. 

Don't know when I've ever talked about coaches for you to word vomit all this out about my opinion which you aren't aware of.

My opinion of successful coaches is based off of results. Sure, they all failed if a championship is the only metric of success, but if that's the case then 29 out of 30 coaches are failures every year. We've seen a rash of coaches who, shortly after winning championships, or after building franchises into consistent contenders for deep playoff runs and conference titles, get axed with little to zero room for patience.

Sounds like those are the decisions being made based off feelings.

Overall it's pretty wild that Spoelstra and Malone have a combined 23 years at their respective franchises without having been s#!tcanned yet. Nice to see reason and patience win out with these two teams.

 

[HuskermanMike]

Don't know when I've ever talked about coaches for you to word vomit all this out about my opinion which you aren't aware of.

My opinion of successful coaches is based off of results. Sure, they all failed if a championship is the only metric of success, but if that's the case then 29 out of 30 coaches are failures every year. We've seen a rash of coaches who, shortly after winning championships, or after building franchises into consistent contenders for deep playoff runs and conference titles, get axed with little to zero room for patience.

Sounds like those are the decisions being made based off feelings.

Overall it's pretty wild that Spoelstra and Malone have a combined 23 years at their respective franchises without having been s#!tcanned yet. Nice to see reason and patience win out with these two teams.

I agree that some front offices get impatient. Heck, Monty got fired after getting tons of depth depleted to get KD. I don't think any team is beating the Nuggets. 

It puts so much pressure on coaches when it is a make-the-finals-or-bust mentality. So many great coaches are getting fired because based on emotions and not on patience. It is fitting that two franchises with patience made it to the Finals. In the Nuggets case, the front office actually made great moves to help the coach and trust in him and the team. 

I also never get letting the superstar of the team approve of a coach. Pat Riley told the Big 3 that he will run his organization and that he will stick with Spoelstra and look where the Heat are now. The Nets bent over backward for KD and Kyrie and look here that got them. Sometimes the superstar does not always know what is best. 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Maybe pay more attention?  

And "successful coaches" ?  Ha, that is a subjective response if I ever heard one.  Because your opinion of successful coaches is based off feelings, influence and perception.  Which is strange.  I mean, when a coach has a talented team that wins regularly in the regular season and finishes the year overmatched in the playoffs..... when the playoffs and championships matter the most to competitive players, the fans and the organization........ then the coach fails and loses all credibility for his "successfulness".  

I think it would be helpful to understand the big picture, the window of opportunity for the players on a team, the contracts, the trades, the regular season positioning and ultimately how you finish in the post season.  

Tyronn Lue failed.  Budenholzer failed.  Doc Rivers failed.  Monty Williams failed.  And to a degree, Darvin Hamm will have a year or feal the hot seat too.  Popovich tanked and tanked and tanked for the #1 pick.  Jason Kidd is not an X and O's guy either, and he too is on the hot seat.  Boston's Mazulla is another one who just watches the game and despite a nice regular season record, added nothing for his team on the biggest stage.  

Winning the regular season means nothing.  It kind of helps with home court, but as we seen over the years, it's not automatic anymore.  Playoff coaching matters a lot when it comes to success for the organization, the team, and the fans.  Not regular season wins against bad teams.

Little snarky, Admo. Maybe misses the point, too. As mentioned, 29 coaches every year won't win a championship, and 28 will get knocked out before the Finals, and you're saying the Big Picture demands they be on the hotseat because the window is ALWAYS closing. And if not the coach who got you that far, who do you go with? The big name hire who is available because he failed to close too?

Budenholzer is two years removed from an NBA Championship with essentially the same players, who he also coached up to the best record in a very competitive NBA this season. Getting bushwacked by the Heat in the First Round seems inexcusable. But is it, really?  Did he forget how to coach?

Lue deserved a second chance with the Clippers, but he didn't deserve Kawai Leonard and Paul George watching in street clothes with the season on the line. You can go either way on how good a coach Jason Kidd is, but you can't blame him for some of the terrible decisions made by Mavericks management. You can definitely say Monty Williams, Doc Rivers, and Mazulla had huge teamwide meltdowns in the clutch, and that genuinely makes their coaching suspect, but they were also more successful than 80% of the coaches who didn't get fired. 

If anything, the lesson is that teams who get all or nothing about their Championship window -- catering to veteran superstars, making trades that favor numbers over chemistry, letting the coach know he is always on the hotseat -- might be sabotaging their own chances. The Nets, the Sixers, the Suns, the Mavericks, and to a lesser extent the Celtics, Warriors, and Lakers fit that mold. At this point it would be more fun to be a Sacramento or Oklahoma City fan: lots of young talent and nowhere to go but up. 

To look at it another way, Mike Malone is the toast of the NBA this year. But Mike didn't decide to have a healthy Jamal Murray and Michael Porter, Jr. this year. That was just bad luck replaced by good luck, and that s#!t happens, too. 

All of which makes what Spoelstra's doing pretty remarkable. Had the same just over .500 Heat team lost that play-in game to the Bulls (in which they trailed in the fourth quarter) you could make the argument that Spoelstra's shelf life had expired and they needed to move on to protect the Jimmy Butler/Bam Adabayo/Tyler Herro window. 

 

[admo]

Little snarky, Admo. Maybe misses the point, too. As mentioned, 29 coaches every year won't win a championship, and 28 will get knocked out before the Finals, and you're saying the Big Picture demands they be on the hotseat because the window is ALWAYS closing. And if not the coach who got you that far, who do you go with? The big name hire who is available because he failed to close too?

Budenholzer is two years removed from an NBA Championship with essentially the same players, who he also coached up to the best record in a very competitive NBA this season. Getting bushwacked by the Heat in the First Round seems inexcusable. But is it, really?  Did he forget how to coach?

Lue deserved a second chance with the Clippers, but he didn't deserve Kawai Leonard and Paul George watching in street clothes with the season on the line. You can go either way on how good a coach Jason Kidd is, but you can't blame him for some of the terrible decisions made by Mavericks management. You can definitely say Monty Williams, Doc Rivers, and Mazulla had huge teamwide meltdowns in the clutch, and that genuinely makes their coaching suspect, but they were also more successful than 80% of the coaches who didn't get fired. 

If anything, the lesson is that teams who get all or nothing about their Championship window -- catering to veteran superstars, making trades that favor numbers over chemistry, letting the coach know he is always on the hotseat -- might be sabotaging their own chances. The Nets, the Sixers, the Suns, the Mavericks, and to a lesser extent the Celtics, Warriors, and Lakers fit that mold. At this point it would be more fun to be a Sacramento or Oklahoma City fan: lots of young talent and nowhere to go but up. 

To look at it another way, Mike Malone is the toast of the NBA this year. But Mike didn't decide to have a healthy Jamal Murray and Michael Porter, Jr. this year. That was just bad luck replaced by good luck, and that s#!t happens, too. 

All of which makes what Spoelstra's doing pretty remarkable. Had the same just over .500 Heat team lost that play-in game to the Bulls (in which they trailed in the fourth quarter) you could make the argument that Spoelstra's shelf life had expired and they needed to move on to protect the Jimmy Butler/Bam Adabayo/Tyler Herro window. 

Eh, that is a misread on your part.  The convo was about coaching and bad coaches.  Then the dude injected a snarky remark.  So I responded, and he doubled down on taking more shots.  It really is that simple to see.  

I don't do the snark business, and I am not that kind of person.  But I do know who does that on this board, and it's not the first time I respond to them.

 

[AZRaiderH8r]

To look at it another way, Mike Malone is the toast of the NBA this year. But Mike didn't decide to have a healthy Jamal Murray and Michael Porter, Jr. this year. That was just bad luck replaced by good luck, and that s#!t happens, too. 

And there was a lot of talk about Malone losing his job without a deep run this season too. Hockey and basketball coaches have a very short shelf life, that's for sure. 

As far as the Finals go, I'm pretty optimistic. After going through the combinations of KAT/Edwards, KD/Booker, and LeBron/AD, I just don't feel like Miami has the firepower that they need to beat the Nuggets in a 7 game series. Of course, they also went through the 1, 2, and 5 seeds in the East to get to the Finals, so I don't think anyone can count them out by any means. I just feel like Denver has such a balanced team this year and Miami will struggle to put up the points necessary to get the wins in this series. I like the Nuggets in 5, but that could just be wishful fandom on my part. Can't wait to get things started tomorrow night!

 

[Lorewarn]

Eh, that is a misread on your part.  The convo was about coaching and bad coaches.  Then the dude injected a snarky remark. 

There's nothing snarky here.

I'll never understand the NBA and the cultural norm of firing successful coaches.

Then the dude injected a snarky remark.  So I responded, and he doubled down on taking more shots.  It really is that simple to see.  

I don't do the snark business, and I am not that kind of person.  But I do know who does that on this board, and it's not the first time I respond to them.

It is simple to see you put words in my mouth and were more than happy to participate in whatever snark you think I injected in the first place. 

Regardless, I'll reiterate that it is refreshing to see two organizations get rewarded for their level-headedness when it seems so many have opted for a short-sighted and dare I say ungrateful position in regards to their personnel decision making. Imagine if the Warriors had fired Steve Kerr after they missed the playoffs in 2020 and 2021.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Yeah, and I agree. It hadn’t really angered me as a fan or anything. We live in a world where hot takes and superstars living in media mega vortexes rule the day, and the NBA is basically built on it.  I’m not really a guy that fumes watching Nick Wright or Max Kellerman dismiss the nuggets. With Wright, it’s a schtick and Kellerman just isn’t very sophisticated, even as sports personalities go. 
What has bothered me is media people who’ve never commented on jokic or the nuggets before acting like they’ve really evaluated this team all year and that this team has really elevated their game. No…this is who they’ve been most of the year and if you watched them you would know that. 

Yeah, it's inexcusable that some national pundits aren't fluent in certain teams and jump on bandwagons, but of course the NBA MVP is voted on by sports media, and they've given Jokic lots of love for three years running. 

I do think there was a running narrative all season that the Nuggets were good -- the record spoke for itself -- but one of these other West teams was surely going to break out of a slump, or regain the services of an injured superstar (or trade for one) and give the Nuggets a better run for their money come the playoffs. It wasn't the craziest or most biased take to think the Clippers, Suns, Grizzlies, or Lakers hadn't played up to their talent yet. As a Warriors fan, I knew the team might sneak past a team or two, but really had no chance against the Nuggets. 

 

[admo]

There's nothing snarky here.

It is simple to see you put words in my mouth and were more than happy to participate in whatever snark you think I injected in the first place. 

Regardless, I'll reiterate that it is refreshing to see two organizations get rewarded for their level-headedness when it seems so many have opted for a short-sighted and dare I say ungrateful position in regards to their personnel decision making. Imagine if the Warriors had fired Steve Kerr after they missed the playoffs in 2020 and 2021.

Well ok then !   :thumbs

 

[Jason Sitoke]

Man…this Nuggets run feels surreal. So proud of this team so far. They just do what they do. 7 straight wins. 

 

[admo]

I know I might get s#!t for this, but I always liked Draymond Green.  Love his game and his personality.  He goes overboard on the court sometimes, and we all see that and hate it.  But, he's a good guy and plays an enforcer role.  Occasionally dirty, but he aint being a POS like Laimbeer or Kendrick Perkins on the court - because they actually had issues with who they guarded.  Perkins still hates Dirk (for dropping 44 and 48 on him in playoff games against OKC) and that fact that Perkins calls him Nowinnski.   Draymond Green isn't like that.  He respects and loves guys that ball - including Luka.  Draymond plays a tough game and has great skills to enforce, rebound, pass, set screens, and shoot.  Kendrick Perkins and Laimbeer were a$$h@!es as people and played liked a$$h@!es.  They still are today.

 

[sho]

I know I might get s#!t for this, but I always liked Draymond Green.  Love his game and his personality.  He goes overboard on the court sometimes, and we all see that and hate it.  But, he's a good guy and plays an enforcer role.  Occasionally dirty, but he aint being a POS like Laimbeer or Kendrick Perkins on the court - because they actually had issues with who they guarded.  Perkins still hates Dirk (for dropping 44 and 48 on him in playoff games against OKC) and that fact that Perkins calls him Nowinnski.   Draymond Green isn't like that.  He respects and loves guys that ball - including Luka.  Draymond plays a tough game and has great skills to enforce, rebound, pass, set screens, and shoot.  Kendrick Perkins and Laimbeer were a$$h@!es as people and played liked a$$h@!es.  They still are today.

Dray is the guy you love to 'hate' but want on your team.   His BB IQ is one of the best in the game, knows his role and excels in it.   Outside of Poole and KD (and KD seems like he has issues with a lot of former teammates), he seems universally loved by his teammates.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Dray is the guy you love to 'hate' but want on your team.   His BB IQ is one of the best in the game, knows his role and excels in it.   Outside of Poole and KD (and KD seems like he has issues with a lot of former teammates), he seems universally loved by his teammates.

Draymond seems to have great relationships with a lot of other players, including LeBron and Durant. His podcast -- which I've never heard -- is apparently smart, honest and well respected. He's gonna do fine when his playing days are over.

He does occasionally drive Warriors fans crazy, and we're wondering if this is the year both parties move on. I'm thinking Draymond really doesn't mesh with other teams or their fanbases, but I'm probably wrong. 

 

[sho]

Draymond seems to have great relationships with a lot of other players, including LeBron and Durant. His podcast -- which I've never heard -- is apparently smart, honest and well respected. He's gonna do fine when his playing days are over.

He does occasionally drive Warriors fans crazy, and we're wondering if this is the year both parties move on. I'm thinking Draymond really doesn't mesh with other teams or their fanbases, but I'm probably wrong. 

Huh, I thought the reason KD wanted out was because of Dray.   Seems like I’ve read innuendos that those two don’t get along.  Dray is hated by most fan bases, but based on what I’ve seen of him, home fans will change their tune quickly with him.  He plays hard, intelligent, does the dirty work and will aggravate the opposing teams.  Home crowds will love him.   The only concern with him, is how far past his prime is he and how quickly will his defensive skills fall off the cliff?