Next seasons starting linebackers

[caveman99]

hmmm..........i call :bs:

Call BS on what exactly? The stats for Cory Ross or .. ?

http://www.nflhuskers.com/draft/2006ross.html

And rushing totals ..

http://www.huskers.com//pdf7/135025.pdf (Page 4)

Cory finished 2 yards behind Diedrick and 34 behind LP on the all-time list.

Or are you calling BS on the physical attributes comparison? I mean, if height were such a disadvantage, why was Cory able to progress into one of the best RBs in Husker history? With speed being a disadvantage, why was Ross able to progress into one of the best in Husker history? With strength being a disadvantage, why was Ross able to progress into one of the best in Husker history?

You look at Cory and he looks like a pudgy little meatball, but yet he is one of the best runners in our schools history. God did not bless him with great genetics, but yet look at what he was able to do.

Again, it goes back to if you are willing to work to do what you want in life. Just because something is harder for you than someone else does not mean it is not attainable. That's just a cop out for actually working that much harder.

Ok please you are listing an exception to the rule, just like Mugsy Bogues and Spud Webb I mentioned earlier. How many players are in the NBA that are my height? Can you name another NU RB in the last 20 years that was as short as Cory Ross and started or made significant contributions? How about the pros?

I completely agree with you about hard work releasing untapped potential, I have been around athletics enough to see a whole lot of that. It is because of this that I don't put as much stock in the recruiting ratings as some, those rankings give you the current measurables but they don't factor in heart or desire. TO did a better job than anyone in measuring the whole package, so far Bo's staff seems to have some of the same ability or at least I hope. A person with less talent can overcome those with a lot more by simply wanting it more.

You cannot deny the impact genetics has on a person's potential. Perfect example that scientists are studying is the phenomenon of black runners who can trace their lineage back to or are from Western Africa are better built to be sprinters vs. black runners who are from or whose lineage goes back to Eastern Africa are better built to be long distance runners. Both groups are genetically engineered different, this is fact. This also explains a lot about why the U.S. is so good in sprint events in the Olympics, most of the African-Americans have lineage back to the Western Coast of Africa. A good portion of the long distance runners in the U.S. are still Caucasion. The African-American has better genetics for quick burst speed, why do you think that the majority of the skill players these days are African-American. They are blessed.

Just in recent years? Brandon Rigoni and Tim Marlowe. In practice Marlowe is absolutely torching our DBs working out of the slot. And that is just on our team. Marlowe is listed at 5'10, but he is barely 5'7.

In the NFL? Maurice Jones-Drew and Darren Sproles are two of the better RBs in the NFL. Bob Sanders was a former NFL DPOY. You could talk about other guys like Jason David and Antonio Chatham who contribute, but ah, what would be the point?

African-Americans are better athletes because they trained to be such. It's tough to put it this way, but when African-Americans where slaves, they were trained to be faster, stronger an work harder. Slave traders forced the best workers into sexual relations so they could essentially breed better workers. The better the worker, the more they could sell them for. These people were basically bred like horses for generations by slave traders everywhere. However, these people did not come out of the womb with these genetics. They were developed. And how were they developed? Through continued hard work.

But what you are saying is the equivalent of saying -- mom and dad are fat, so I will be fat as well. The likelihood that you will be heavy is greater, but only you control your diet and how healthy you can/will be in life. It may be harder for you to become healthy, but it does not mean you absolutely cannot become healthy. Genetics only controls the greater likelihood of something, it isn't the definitive determining factor in the outcome. That is where you are getting confused.

It's almost like Muhammad Ali. His father painted billboards and IIRC, his mother was a home maker. What genetic structure did he have that allowed him to be the greatest fighter to ever live or have those insanely fast hands? I mean, the guy was borderline retarded. Legitimately mentally retarded for those thinking I am joking. His IQ was 78. Now after his years of dedication and work his gene structure allowed him to have a child like Layla who has became the greatest female boxer of her time.

Genetics are developed then inherited, not just inherited.

You list exceptions to the rule again. Of the 140+ guys listed on the NU roster, none are shorter than 5' 10". I know they inflate some of the statistics by I am betting that only a handful are even in the 5' 7" range.

While I agree with what you are saying about the unfortunate period of Slavery, I think you are proving my point. If every person has unlimited potential then why would it be necessary for Slave Owners to force the better athletes in their labor pool to breed? Why not spend the effort to ensure the best breeding partners and just work everyone up to the same level of elite performance. Point is that despite the gains those unfortunate people made through the grueling work and environment, their offspring were even better than their parents. As those offspring grew up and were worked hard to realize their full potential they in turn created offspring even better than they were and so the cycle goes. Bottom line is that people have a limit on what they can achieve, although it is so much higher than most people can ever dream of unless they are willing to put enough effort in. This is the point you keep getting wound around.

I am not saying that if mom or dad are fat, I will be also. I am pointing out that your premise of "anyone at all can be a NFL player, all they have to do is work hard enough," is flawed due to the limits each person has due to his or her genetics. I do not buy into the "I am a victim of circumstance" that you will see people make. Again I agree with 98% of what you are saying, hard work will allow people to reach unforseen levels. I just disagree with the unlimited supply of potential you contend that everyone has.

If your premise is correct, I could play in the NFL at ANY position. I should have absolutely have no limits on how big, strong or fast I can get. If this was the case then why would it be necessary for Horses to be bred properly for racing, why are some of the world class athletes much faster than others, why is Joba Chamberlain able to throw 99 mph and Greg Maddux only able to throw low 90's in his prime? You are absolutely correct in that people can work to evolve their genetic make up, but everyone has their limits.

 

[BigRedMan]

Isnt LaTravis Washington a linebacker? Why isnt anybody mentioning him as a potential starter?

 

[BigWillie]

You list exceptions to the rule again. Of the 140+ guys listed on the NU roster, none are shorter than 5' 10". I know they inflate some of the statistics by I am betting that only a handful are even in the 5' 7" range.

While I agree with what you are saying about the unfortunate period of Slavery, I think you are proving my point. If every person has unlimited potential then why would it be necessary for Slave Owners to force the better athletes in their labor pool to breed? Why not spend the effort to ensure the best breeding partners and just work everyone up to the same level of elite performance. Point is that despite the gains those unfortunate people made through the grueling work and environment, their offspring were even better than their parents. As those offspring grew up and were worked hard to realize their full potential they in turn created offspring even better than they were and so the cycle goes. Bottom line is that people have a limit on what they can achieve, although it is so much higher than most people can ever dream of unless they are willing to put enough effort in. This is the point you keep getting wound around.

I am not saying that if mom or dad are fat, I will be also. I am pointing out that your premise of "anyone at all can be a NFL player, all they have to do is work hard enough," is flawed due to the limits each person has due to his or her genetics. I do not buy into the "I am a victim of circumstance" that you will see people make. Again I agree with 98% of what you are saying, hard work will allow people to reach unforseen levels. I just disagree with the unlimited supply of potential you contend that everyone has.

If your premise is correct, I could play in the NFL at ANY position. I should have absolutely have no limits on how big, strong or fast I can get. If this was the case then why would it be necessary for Horses to be bred properly for racing, why are some of the world class athletes much faster than others, why is Joba Chamberlain able to throw 99 mph and Greg Maddux only able to throw low 90's in his prime? You are absolutely correct in that people can work to evolve their genetic make up, but everyone has their limits.

Why is it the exception? You asked for players and I have given you numerous. But you still call it the exception and not the rule. What rule? The rule you have to be 6'1 and 200lbs before you can play football? C'mon man, that's just silly. Plenty of players past and present have been short in stature. I named just a few, but could continue to name more if you wish.

Slave traders attempted to with all slaves. The whole point was to make money for them, so they wanted every slave at peak performance. Thus why we have a whole generation of African Americans who are so much better athletes than most.

And yes, you are right their offspring benefited. But you are going down the line into evolution. However, they were only benefited by the advances their parents and grandparents made in their genetic cycle by continuing to develop their physical capabilities.

See, you are limiting the body in what it is capable of. You are saying that once you hit a certain speed, you cannot increase. Once you hit a certain strength, you cannot increase. Never in the history of human science has their been one competent scientist or human biologist that has determined you have a cap on what the human body is physically capable of.

For example -- a group of mathematicians and scientists attempted to predict the peak limit of when the 100m dash world record would halt. They predicted it would be in the 9.4 range before it would slow completely. However, they also predicted that no one would break the 9.6's range barrier until the year 2030. This past year Usain Bolt ran a 9.69 and those same mathematicians predicted he could have ran a 9.55 had he not slowed to celebrate near the end of the race.

It goes to show that even the grandest of experts have no idea to the capabilities of the human body and anything it can possibly do. The only limit is the limit you put on yourself in your mind.

And no, I am not saying you could play any position. Now you are just attempting to twist words to fit your agenda. I am saying regardless of your shortcoming in height or weight, that it is possible for you to play in the NFL. What position is up to you. Just as others have shown, like our own Cory Ross, height is irregardless, as is speed and strength.

And Joba is able to throw 99mph because he was trained to do so. It's like the story of Billy Wagner. One of the most overpowering fastballs in the last decade. He didn't get great genetics. He's from my part of the country, no one comes out of here playing professional sports. However, the kid was a right hand pitcher. He broke his arm, so he learned to throw left handed. The kid would take a baseball, go into the field on his farm, throw the baseball as far as he could, chase it, then throw it back again the other way as far as he could. Wanna guess how he was able to develop that arm strength?

People take different paths to get where they are. Not everyone is going to work on their arm strength, or leg strength, or throwing the football, kicking a football -- everyone takes a different path to reach what they are capable of.

You are really attempting to twist words now and that isn't cool when we are having a civil discussion actually.

 

[caveman99]

You list exceptions to the rule again. Of the 140+ guys listed on the NU roster, none are shorter than 5' 10". I know they inflate some of the statistics by I am betting that only a handful are even in the 5' 7" range.

While I agree with what you are saying about the unfortunate period of Slavery, I think you are proving my point. If every person has unlimited potential then why would it be necessary for Slave Owners to force the better athletes in their labor pool to breed? Why not spend the effort to ensure the best breeding partners and just work everyone up to the same level of elite performance. Point is that despite the gains those unfortunate people made through the grueling work and environment, their offspring were even better than their parents. As those offspring grew up and were worked hard to realize their full potential they in turn created offspring even better than they were and so the cycle goes. Bottom line is that people have a limit on what they can achieve, although it is so much higher than most people can ever dream of unless they are willing to put enough effort in. This is the point you keep getting wound around.

I am not saying that if mom or dad are fat, I will be also. I am pointing out that your premise of "anyone at all can be a NFL player, all they have to do is work hard enough," is flawed due to the limits each person has due to his or her genetics. I do not buy into the "I am a victim of circumstance" that you will see people make. Again I agree with 98% of what you are saying, hard work will allow people to reach unforseen levels. I just disagree with the unlimited supply of potential you contend that everyone has.

If your premise is correct, I could play in the NFL at ANY position. I should have absolutely have no limits on how big, strong or fast I can get. If this was the case then why would it be necessary for Horses to be bred properly for racing, why are some of the world class athletes much faster than others, why is Joba Chamberlain able to throw 99 mph and Greg Maddux only able to throw low 90's in his prime? You are absolutely correct in that people can work to evolve their genetic make up, but everyone has their limits.

Why is it the exception? You asked for players and I have given you numerous. But you still call it the exception and not the rule. What rule? The rule you have to be 6'1 and 200lbs before you can play football? C'mon man, that's just silly. Plenty of players past and present have been short in stature. I named just a few, but could continue to name more if you wish.

Slave traders attempted to with all slaves. The whole point was to make money for them, so they wanted every slave at peak performance. Thus why we have a whole generation of African Americans who are so much better athletes than most.

And yes, you are right their offspring benefited. But you are going down the line into evolution. However, they were only benefited by the advances their parents and grandparents made in their genetic cycle by continuing to develop their physical capabilities.

See, you are limiting the body in what it is capable of. You are saying that once you hit a certain speed, you cannot increase. Once you hit a certain strength, you cannot increase. Never in the history of human science has their been one competent scientist or human biologist that has determined you have a cap on what the human body is physically capable of.

For example -- a group of mathematicians and scientists attempted to predict the peak limit of when the 100m dash world record would halt. They predicted it would be in the 9.4 range before it would slow completely. However, they also predicted that no one would break the 9.6's range barrier until the year 2030. This past year Usain Bolt ran a 9.69 and those same mathematicians predicted he could have ran a 9.55 had he not slowed to celebrate near the end of the race.

It goes to show that even the grandest of experts have no idea to the capabilities of the human body and anything it can possibly do. The only limit is the limit you put on yourself in your mind.

And no, I am not saying you could play any position. Now you are just attempting to twist words to fit your agenda. I am saying regardless of your shortcoming in height or weight, that it is possible for you to play in the NFL. What position is up to you. Just as others have shown, like our own Cory Ross, height is irregardless, as is speed and strength.

And Joba is able to throw 99mph because he was trained to do so. It's like the story of Billy Wagner. One of the most overpowering fastballs in the last decade. He didn't get great genetics. He's from my part of the country, no one comes out of here playing professional sports. However, the kid was a right hand pitcher. He broke his arm, so he learned to throw left handed. The kid would take a baseball, go into the field on his farm, throw the baseball as far as he could, chase it, then throw it back again the other way as far as he could. Wanna guess how he was able to develop that arm strength?

People take different paths to get where they are. Not everyone is going to work on their arm strength, or leg strength, or throwing the football, kicking a football -- everyone takes a different path to reach what they are capable of.

You are really attempting to twist words now and that isn't cool when we are having a civil discussion actually.

I wasn't trying to twist words, if you feel that way then ok I guess we disagree. Your comment was simply anyone can do ANYTHING, that there were no physical limits to what anyone can do period. You didn't confine it at all including to say that due to my height restrictions I could not play a lot of positions in the NFL. Go look at your previous post with the reference to Cory Ross in it, you explictly make it a point to show me that height is in no way a limiting factor. My point is that this is not true. I will concede to your point that if I had the right opportunity and made a strong effort maybe I could play in the NFL. As I have mentioned several times I completely agree with you on personal development being comletely a factor of how hard you work. However I could not play O Line, D Line, etc., you get my point I think. I am limited by my genetic make up in what my opportunities may be.

Going to the players comparison again, let's start with Larry Bird. He may have been able to play in the NBA if he was shorter and didn't have the same frame. His genetics allowed him to be that tall, his rare combination of height combined with the athleticism he gained by working his tail off made him one of the best ever. He was so versitile, just like MJ, that he could post up, blow by you, run the point if needed, etc. You cannot teach height.

Joba Chamberlain was given the gift to play baseball and throw the heater. Wagner may have developed his arm strength but Joba didn't. He was blessed with it from the beginning. Greg Maddux worked as hard as anyone and he could never get his arm to let him throw anywhere near as fast as Joba. Now Joba works out pretty hard now, something he learned when he got to the big leagues and watching Mike Mussina, Andy Pettite, and others. If he put a ton of effort simply in getting his arm stronger maybe he could throw 115 MPH, I don't know. A lot of his work out is designed to give him endurance so he can last 7-9 innings and still maintain his arm strength.

 

[HUSKER FREAK]

Blake Lawrence

I believe you are saying this for more personal reasons. Correct me if I am wrong, I just thought I read that earlier in this thread. I would have to say though that I agree. I think he will be improved next season and is kind of one of those blue collar type work horses. The competition for playing time next season will only make them all better. Athletically and hopefully otherwise.

 

[RedDenver]

Didn't Beano Cook get fired for talking about how slavery makes African-Americans better athletes?

 

[BigWillie]

I wasn't trying to twist words, if you feel that way then ok I guess we disagree. Your comment was simply anyone can do ANYTHING, that there were no physical limits to what anyone can do period. You didn't confine it at all including to say that due to my height restrictions I could not play a lot of positions in the NFL. Go look at your previous post with the reference to Cory Ross in it, you explictly make it a point to show me that height is in no way a limiting factor. My point is that this is not true. I will concede to your point that if I had the right opportunity and made a strong effort maybe I could play in the NFL. As I have mentioned several times I completely agree with you on personal development being comletely a factor of how hard you work. However I could not play O Line, D Line, etc., you get my point I think. I am limited by my genetic make up in what my opportunities may be.

Going to the players comparison again, let's start with Larry Bird. He may have been able to play in the NBA if he was shorter and didn't have the same frame. His genetics allowed him to be that tall, his rare combination of height combined with the athleticism he gained by working his tail off made him one of the best ever. He was so versitile, just like MJ, that he could post up, blow by you, run the point if needed, etc. You cannot teach height.

Joba Chamberlain was given the gift to play baseball and throw the heater. Wagner may have developed his arm strength but Joba didn't. He was blessed with it from the beginning. Greg Maddux worked as hard as anyone and he could never get his arm to let him throw anywhere near as fast as Joba. Now Joba works out pretty hard now, something he learned when he got to the big leagues and watching Mike Mussina, Andy Pettite, and others. If he put a ton of effort simply in getting his arm stronger maybe he could throw 115 MPH, I don't know. A lot of his work out is designed to give him endurance so he can last 7-9 innings and still maintain his arm strength.

Anyone can do anything -- and by anything, I mean anything within their means. You are taking it as far to say that a 5'6 guy could line up at OT and be the next Munoz. That is just being silly and twisting words. I am however saying that within your means, you have every ability to develop into an athlete that is capable of playing a position suited to you.

This is where you are twisting words to fit your agenda.

It's like evolution, everyone develops into their own. While a larger person may be bigger and stronger, the smaller person will be quicker and faster. You have a better opportunity to develop into a faster and quicker person than I do. I have a better chance of being stronger and bigger. Does that mean for certain just because I am 6'6 that I cannot develop foot speed though? Heck no. It is harder, but impossible is nothing.

And again, you are wrong about not being able to teach height. That is a common saying that isn't completely true. Proper nutrition at a younger age, the right sleep, posture, vitamins, stretching, swimming, etc., can all make you taller than you are likely to be.

It's almost as silly as the old saying, "you cannot teach speed."

And Bird was versatile? Huh? Bird was as slow and unathletic as they come. However, the guy was precise in every single aspect of the game. From his passing, defense and movement without the ball. The guy never loafed, never played half-hearted. The first time he ran off a screen in a game would be the same as if it were the last screen in a game. However, fast and athletic he was not. He just willed himself better than any player on the court. That and he was a pretty good shooter and scorer.

Right. Joba came out of the womb and hit his doctor with a heater. Right dead between the eyes. C'mon man, that's just silly. No one just rolls over and begins having one of the best fastballs in all of baseball. That's just nonsense.

But I guess anyone is naturally strong, eh? I should be able to bench 500lbs natural as well just as Joba naturally could throw a high 90's fastball. No one just magically gets a talent. This isn't a fairy tale book.

And again, Maddux is a different beast. Everyone takes different paths to get to where they are. If throwing a baseball meant automatic arm strength, everyone would be tossing 100mph heaters. Unfortunately, a LOT more goes into throwing a baseball.

Notice the people with higher velocities always have the most arm trouble. That is because their arm action is not fluid and they put more strain on their bodies to get an increased velocity. Almost anyone can pick up a baseball, throw the crap out of it. Unfortunately, baseball is a science that requires different things for everyone.

Are you strong in the hips? Strong rotator cuff? Lower body strength? Arm action?

You bring up Joba for example -- he has actually decreased velocity since changing his throwing motion. His velocity has decreased since becoming a starter. Did his arm suddenly get weaker or did he need to change his approach to the game?

And arm strength and endurance are the same thing. Arm strength allows you to pitch deeper into games. While arm strength plays a part in your fastball, drive from the mound and the lower body plays a bigger part in your fastball. Arm strength is a factor in velocity, but a bigger factor in endurance.

But this is developing into an agree to disagree type argument, so maybe we should leave it at that.

 

[caveman99]

Anyone can do anything -- and by anything, I mean anything within their means. You are taking it as far to say that a 5'6 guy could line up at OT and be the next Munoz. That is just being silly and twisting words. I am however saying that within your means, you have every ability to develop into an athlete that is capable of playing a position suited to you.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make all along, if that is not how you took what I was saying then I don't know what to do. My point the entire time has been that everyone has limits at some point, where as the entire time you kept saying no. Thank you for making my point.

This is where you are twisting words to fit your agenda.

Not really, you never made your point clear until the last post. I said it time and again and yet you kept coming back with a reason why I was wrong. If your point has boundaries then you should mention that.

It's like evolution, everyone develops into their own. While a larger person may be bigger and stronger, the smaller person will be quicker and faster. You have a better opportunity to develop into a faster and quicker person than I do. I have a better chance of being stronger and bigger. Does that mean for certain just because I am 6'6 that I cannot develop foot speed though? Heck no. It is harder, but impossible is nothing.

Completely agree.

And again, you are wrong about not being able to teach height. That is a common saying that isn't completely true. Proper nutrition at a younger age, the right sleep, posture, vitamins, stretching, swimming, etc., can all make you taller than you are likely to be.

There are limits to this also, oh well I will let this one go.

And Bird was versatile? Huh? Bird was as slow and unathletic as they come. However, the guy was precise in every single aspect of the game. From his passing, defense and movement without the ball. The guy never loafed, never played half-hearted. The first time he ran off a screen in a game would be the same as if it were the last screen in a game. However, fast and athletic he was not. He just willed himself better than any player on the court. That and he was a pretty good shooter and scorer.

When he was in the NBA he was versatile. He once said he took it as an insult when a caucasion player guarded him because he knew he much more athletic than him.

Right. Joba came out of the womb and hit his doctor with a heater. Right dead between the eyes. C'mon man, that's just silly. No one just rolls over and begins having one of the best fastballs in all of baseball. That's just nonsense.

Baseball is one of my passions as are the NYY and in this case you are flat wrong. Of course he didn't have it from birth, but he sure as heck didn't follow a program to make sure he could throw 99. When he got bigger he realized he could throw hard, he didn't have to work very hard to realize his talent. He didn't go into a strength and conditioning program for his arm and legs to get to 99, he just got that ability as his naturally big frame filled out thanks to his genetics.

And again, Maddux is a different beast. Everyone takes different paths to get to where they are. If throwing a baseball meant automatic arm strength, everyone would be tossing 100mph heaters. Unfortunately, a LOT more goes into throwing a baseball.
Notice the people with higher velocities always have the most arm trouble. That is because their arm action is not fluid and they put more strain on their bodies to get an increased velocity. Almost anyone can pick up a baseball, throw the crap out of it. Unfortunately, baseball is a science that requires different things for everyone.

Are you strong in the hips? Strong rotator cuff? Lower body strength? Arm action?

Per your theory Maddux should have been able to stregthen all of these areas and become like Joba. Never happened like that. I know Maddux worked out and addressed these areas, never could throw it like Joba.

You bring up Joba for example -- he has actually decreased velocity since changing his throwing motion. His velocity has decreased since becoming a starter. Did his arm suddenly get weaker or did he need to change his approach to the game?

Actually his fastball has not gotten slower due to a drop off in his ability. Fact is that most pitchers that throw as hard as Joba dial it down a bit when they become starters. Point is that they can get hitters out just as effectively throwing mid 90's vs. upper 90's when combined with other pitches. Throwing in upper 90's gets you gassed too quickly and you won't last 7-9 innings, it is something that Joba has had to learn last year as he started his transition to the rotation. However if Joba wants, and believe me I have seen it enough last year, he can dial up 97-99 whenever he wants or feels he needs it.

And arm strength and endurance are the same thing. Arm strength allows you to pitch deeper into games. While arm strength plays a part in your fastball, drive from the mound and the lower body plays a bigger part in your fastball. Arm strength is a factor in velocity, but a bigger factor in endurance.

Actually they are not the same thing, but you are right in that a good portion of the ability to throw a fastball comes from the leg drive. This was the secret to Roger Clemens career. Endurance doesn't allow you to throw 98, strength in your arm and legs does that. Endurance lets you do it longer.

 

[huskers1]

I am with some others on here who think that lawrence will be starting next year. I think he made some really big strides throughout the year and played his two best games the last two games of the year. He showed some pretty good speed on a few plays and had a couple big hits. I think Whaley will play a lot but I think Lawrence will start at the beginning of the year. I also think Fisher will start at strongside and Reed will be behind him. I dont see any way that Compton starts next year except if he outplays dillard in the games. I think the people I am most excited to see next year are Whaley, Compton, Fisher, Dennard, Steinkhuler and Josh Williams.

 

[BigBL87]

No, you have the ability to get to that point, just not the work ethic to get to that point.

For example -- Larry Bird. A slow white kid who could not jump and even had problems reading. He was not going to win a foot race, was not going to out jump anyone or do anything flashy on the court, but yet ended up being one of the greatest players in the history of the game.

With Bird you could find him during the winter shooting jump shots. While most kids were inside during the Indiana winters, Bird was shoveling snow so he could get space to shoot a basketball. It's dedication like that which took a meager athlete and made him one of the greatest ever.

It would be easy to say that Bird is the exception and not the rule. But Bird is one of the few who actually had the determination to knock down his mental barriers to overcome his lack of physical attributes. Not many have that and it still goes on with so many people when they say they cannot succeed like others.

Your body is a science and a complex object that you just need to figure out. And like Bird, if you put in the time to train your body, it can accomplish things no one thought is possible.

While in a way I agree, I will also disagree. Bird did become as amazing as he was due to practice, but something that I think you leave out is the physical/mental abilities that it takes to be able to make shots consistently. It's kind of the idea of Multiple Intelligences, if you are familiar with the concept. Bird may not have been outstandingly academically intelligent, but you can bet he was very Visual-Spatially intelligent, and in some ways (not foot speed, mind you) Bodily-Kinestheticly intelligent. Refining those intelligences was what made him as amazing as he was, but the ability was something inborn in my opinion.

Growing up, I was never particularly athletic, but I was always significantly taller and heavier than most kids my age. I was never fleet of foot, and never will be. However, I learned to use my size as an advantage in sports and learned the intricacies of each sport. For instance, I became a great contact hitter despite my slow speed, and I was fantastic at bunting, meaning I sacrifice bunted surprisingly often for a cleanup hitter. All of those require coordination that is inborn but further refined by practice.

ANYWAY, back to the topic...

I will be VERY surprised if Dillard is not starting at the beginning of next year. Compton may be more athletic, but Dillard's game experience is HUGE. He is not entitled because of it by any means. However, in the Cover 2/Tampa 2 defenses that Bo likes to run, the MLB is essentially the QB of the defense. I somewhat liken it to the QB situation. None of our current QB's are as physically gifted as Cody Green, IMO, but they understand the offense better and have experience making the reads in our offense. In the same way, Dillard is experience making the reads in our defenses that Compton will not have. I do think that Compton will get significant playing time, I just don't see him starting.

 

[BigBL87]

*Double Post*

 

[BigWillie]

This is exactly the point I was trying to make all along, if that is not how you took what I was saying then I don't know what to do. My point the entire time has been that everyone has limits at some point, where as the entire time you kept saying no. Thank you for making my point.

Do you even know what your point is anymore? It's been distorted, twisted and I'm not even for sure what you are arguing anymore. Well, besides the fact you like to debate.

It started out as it was harder for you to become an athletic person due to height/weight limitations and now you are agreeing with the point I have argued all along as if you were making the same point. I don't get it?

In any case ..

Not really, you never made your point clear until the last post. I said it time and again and yet you kept coming back with a reason why I was wrong. If your point has boundaries then you should mention that.

I think I've made my point rather clear from the beginning to anyone who has read this. But just I have said that you have distorted my words, I don't think you fully understood from the beginning. If you did, I wouldn't have to explain numerous times the same point before you finally got it.

Completely agree.

Take a picture of this.

There are limits to this also, oh well I will let this one go.

Who said there was not? Just simply correcting you on an incorrect statement. Again, distortion.

When he was in the NBA he was versatile. He once said he took it as an insult when a caucasion player guarded him because he knew he much more athletic than him.

What Bird thought and what people who watched him thought are two totally different things.

Baseball is one of my passions as are the NYY and in this case you are flat wrong. Of course he didn't have it from birth, but he sure as heck didn't follow a program to make sure he could throw 99. When he got bigger he realized he could throw hard, he didn't have to work very hard to realize his talent. He didn't go into a strength and conditioning program for his arm and legs to get to 99, he just got that ability as his naturally big frame filled out thanks to his genetics.

If you really believe this is like The Natural then I do not know what we are discussing.

And baseball may be a passion for you, but I'm just going to take a shot in the dark here and say I have received just a fair share more instruction than you have in the sport.

When I was 11 years old I was receiving pitching instruction from Mark Riley, former pitching coach for the Indians. Numerous times a year I would make a trip to Baltimore and Cleveland to hang out with some of the players and coaches. I was only able to meet them thanks to the fact my uncle was a former regional scout in the Indians organization until about 2 years ago. He was also the manager for a state powerhouse in baseball.

Until until my junior year in HS I was routinely receiving letters from most big colleges in baseball. Numerous TJS that followed pretty much halted all of them but a few from colleges like Walters State and such. Still have the letters laying around if you wish to see them.

Actually his fastball has not gotten slower due to a drop off in his ability. Fact is that most pitchers that throw as hard as Joba dial it down a bit when they become starters. Point is that they can get hitters out just as effectively throwing mid 90's vs. upper 90's when combined with other pitches. Throwing in upper 90's gets you gassed too quickly and you won't last 7-9 innings, it is something that Joba has had to learn last year as he started his transition to the rotation. However if Joba wants, and believe me I have seen it enough last year, he can dial up 97-99 whenever he wants or feels he needs it.

And again, twisting words. I never, ever, ever said Joba had a dropoff in ability.

And thank you for making my point. Joba has had to tone it down due to underlying factors, just as I stated. However, Joba has also lost velocity due to the fact he has slowed his motion so that his arm action does not get so far ahead of him that he loses control. Before when Joba was in the pen, he was used to going up, throwing gas, getting guys out. IIRC, something like over 60% of his pitches were fastballs.

Due to the fact he can no longer do that, Joba has had to slow his motion.

In fact, in searching, I found an article that details Joba's change in motion if you wish to see it ..

http://www.baseball-intellect.com/Articles...-mechanics.html

Not everything needs to be glaring in baseball to be a change. Even the slightest of changes can significantly alter results as it has with Joba. Even though he lost just a few MPH on his fastball, as the numbers show, his control developed.

Actually they are not the same thing, but you are right in that a good portion of the ability to throw a fastball comes from the leg drive. This was the secret to Roger Clemens career. Endurance doesn't allow you to throw 98, strength in your arm and legs does that. Endurance lets you do it longer.

If you have ever pitched in a game, how can you say they are not the same thing? I'm really, really curious about this one now and I would like to be enlightened to how you came up with this one.

Players do not break down in games because of their bodies, but because their arms are not properly conditioned and strengthened. If they did, David Wells would have never pitched a game in his life. Overall conditioning plays a very, very, very small factor in ability to pitch later in games.

Arm strength and arm endurance are one in the same and always have been.

 

[macroboy]

hmmm.......so........

Larry Bird, Roger Clemens, Mugsy Bogues, and Grag Maddux are training like mad for our starting LB positions next year? :dunno

 

[caveman99]

This is exactly the point I was trying to make all along, if that is not how you took what I was saying then I don't know what to do. My point the entire time has been that everyone has limits at some point, where as the entire time you kept saying no. Thank you for making my point.

Do you even know what your point is anymore? It's been distorted, twisted and I'm not even for sure what you are arguing anymore. Well, besides the fact you like to debate.

It started out as it was harder for you to become an athletic person due to height/weight limitations and now you are agreeing with the point I have argued all along as if you were making the same point. I don't get it?

In any case ..

Not really, you never made your point clear until the last post. I said it time and again and yet you kept coming back with a reason why I was wrong. If your point has boundaries then you should mention that.

I think I've made my point rather clear from the beginning to anyone who has read this. But just I have said that you have distorted my words, I don't think you fully understood from the beginning. If you did, I wouldn't have to explain numerous times the same point before you finally got it.

Completely agree.

Take a picture of this.

There are limits to this also, oh well I will let this one go.

Who said there was not? Just simply correcting you on an incorrect statement. Again, distortion.

When he was in the NBA he was versatile. He once said he took it as an insult when a caucasion player guarded him because he knew he much more athletic than him.

What Bird thought and what people who watched him thought are two totally different things.

Baseball is one of my passions as are the NYY and in this case you are flat wrong. Of course he didn't have it from birth, but he sure as heck didn't follow a program to make sure he could throw 99. When he got bigger he realized he could throw hard, he didn't have to work very hard to realize his talent. He didn't go into a strength and conditioning program for his arm and legs to get to 99, he just got that ability as his naturally big frame filled out thanks to his genetics.

If you really believe this is like The Natural then I do not know what we are discussing.

And baseball may be a passion for you, but I'm just going to take a shot in the dark here and say I have received just a fair share more instruction than you have in the sport.

When I was 11 years old I was receiving pitching instruction from Mark Riley, former pitching coach for the Indians. Numerous times a year I would make a trip to Baltimore and Cleveland to hang out with some of the players and coaches. I was only able to meet them thanks to the fact my uncle was a former regional scout in the Indians organization until about 2 years ago. He was also the manager for a state powerhouse in baseball.

Until until my junior year in HS I was routinely receiving letters from most big colleges in baseball. Numerous TJS that followed pretty much halted all of them but a few from colleges like Walters State and such. Still have the letters laying around if you wish to see them.

Actually his fastball has not gotten slower due to a drop off in his ability. Fact is that most pitchers that throw as hard as Joba dial it down a bit when they become starters. Point is that they can get hitters out just as effectively throwing mid 90's vs. upper 90's when combined with other pitches. Throwing in upper 90's gets you gassed too quickly and you won't last 7-9 innings, it is something that Joba has had to learn last year as he started his transition to the rotation. However if Joba wants, and believe me I have seen it enough last year, he can dial up 97-99 whenever he wants or feels he needs it.

And again, twisting words. I never, ever, ever said Joba had a dropoff in ability.

And thank you for making my point. Joba has had to tone it down due to underlying factors, just as I stated. However, Joba has also lost velocity due to the fact he has slowed his motion so that his arm action does not get so far ahead of him that he loses control. Before when Joba was in the pen, he was used to going up, throwing gas, getting guys out. IIRC, something like over 60% of his pitches were fastballs.

Due to the fact he can no longer do that, Joba has had to slow his motion.

In fact, in searching, I found an article that details Joba's change in motion if you wish to see it ..

http://www.baseball-intellect.com/Articles...-mechanics.html

Not everything needs to be glaring in baseball to be a change. Even the slightest of changes can significantly alter results as it has with Joba. Even though he lost just a few MPH on his fastball, as the numbers show, his control developed.

Actually they are not the same thing, but you are right in that a good portion of the ability to throw a fastball comes from the leg drive. This was the secret to Roger Clemens career. Endurance doesn't allow you to throw 98, strength in your arm and legs does that. Endurance lets you do it longer.

If you have ever pitched in a game, how can you say they are not the same thing? I'm really, really curious about this one now and I would like to be enlightened to how you came up with this one.

Players do not break down in games because of their bodies, but because their arms are not properly conditioned and strengthened. If they did, David Wells would have never pitched a game in his life. Overall conditioning plays a very, very, very small factor in ability to pitch later in games.

Arm strength and arm endurance are one in the same and always have been.

Well we seem to be going in circles and essentially agreeing, then agreeing to disagree. I feel that if you go back and look at your posts again you will see that you were essentially claiming that anyone could play any position they wanted to in the NFL. You seem to believe that if I look at my posts I was ignoring your points and twisting your words, either way I am not sure how far this can go. I could go back an pull out your quotes and put them in a reply that reanalyzes what you were saying and what I was saying, but that becomes a personal argument vs. a discussion. You and I agree that performance on the field is mostly a factor of personal effort. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how much people are limited by genetics.

Last and only point I will take issue with is your assertion of strength and endurance being the same thing. I am basing my point on the scientific definitions of strength vs. endurance. The official definition of muscular strength is how much physical ability is in them, i.e. how much can they lift. Muscle endurance is how long can the muscles perform, often measured at a sub-optimal performance level like lifting 80% of your max. This is the only way I have ever had it described to me in training and in sports medicine journals, articles, etc. Here is an example: http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/musassess.html. If for pitchers it is lingo to call them the same then that is similar to a colloquial twisting of the actual definitions.

 

[BigWillie]

Last and only point I will take issue with is your assertion of strength and endurance being the same thing. I am basing my point on the scientific definitions of strength vs. endurance. The official definition of muscular strength is how much physical ability is in them, i.e. how much can they lift. Muscle endurance is how long can the muscles perform, often measured at a sub-optimal performance level like lifting 80% of your max. This is the only way I have ever had it described to me in training and in sports medicine journals, articles, etc. Here is an example: http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/musassess.html. If for pitchers it is lingo to call them the same then that is similar to a colloquial twisting of the actual definitions.

Again, this is wrong.

This is the way it has always been described to me in simplest terms -- think of your arm as your heart. The heart of any pitcher is his arm. To improve your overall endurance for any day-to-day vigorous activity you must strengthen your heart. The same applies to your arm.

To put it even more simply -- how do you improve conditioning of your arm? You must work your arm out with something as simple as a long toss program or doing 'tube drills'. Either way, to improve overall conditioning so you can play later in games you must strengthen your arm to get to this point.

You are thinking in the simplest terms of strength = big muscles. Not so. Simply look at someone like a Lance Armstrong. Even in his legs Lance is not a big man, but no one would even doubt his strength or conditioning. Same thing for a pitcher.