beck is getting too much heat

[Enhance]

Flip side: at what point do we start thinking that the shortcomings of the personnel are limiting us far too much in games? When you can't call passes on 2nd and 16, 3rd and 16, and then in two straight two minute drills (starting at 1:59 left in the half, and then 0:32), you better hope we have a terrific defense, which we didn't.

For starters, you want to avoid being put in those situations in the first place. If we ever get to the point where we're concerned about how we're going to execute passes in 2nd and 10+...that'll be the day.

Second of all, I don't know many teams that would say they're comfortable attempting those long plays.

 

[zoogs]

Nobody's critical of Beck for passing the ball in certain situations. But when he called pass plays on 14/15 consecutive plays, not all of those were necessary. What if he had called pass plays on 10/15 consecutive plays? Maybe that keeps the defense a little more honest and off-balance, maybe it keeps Taylor from trying to be superman.

I am charting the 2nd quarter plays and I am counting, to the end of the half, 12 of 15. 12 of 14 if you want to start counting on the first pass play. 7 of those 12 passes occurred during two 2-minute drill drives.

I agree that there are several of these playcalls that should have gone the other way. Absolutely. But we're talking about a few playcalls, not some massive, egregious, continued error.

Those numbers can be real misleading, too. For instance, I could call that 12/14, and I could also call it 12/15 or 12/16 without being wrong. Is that close enough to 10 of 15?

If you want to look at the 2nd quarter before the two minute drills, it was 7 passes to 5 runs. Again, that starts counting in the middle of a drive. Include that whole drive, and it's 8 passes to 8 runs.

So let's look at the two minute drills, where there were 7 passes to 1 run in two drives. These are two minute drills, up against the clock and trying to move downfield. Maybe it could be 6 to 2, but go any more and you're splitting hairs, as well as taking away play sequences that worked.

there was plenty of time on the clock and we were already on Wisconsin's side of the field. People aren't even critical of his decision to pass - they're critical of his decision to not run.

I completely agree with you about this, but we are talking about one playcall now. You can thank the three straight pass plays that moved us from our own 24 and into Wisconsin territory with plenty of time to spare. And you can criticize the 2nd-and-6 pass play (incomplete), and I'm right behind you with that criticism.

3rd-and-6 pass play, though, the one that was intercepted...we had to pass there. If we had run on 2nd-and-6, things would have turned out a lot differently if we could have gotten even just 3 yards. But we didn't, so we had to go to the air again.

And there's nothing bad to be said about the final 2-minute drill drive, which was 2 passes, 1 run, and set us up into field goal range in under 30 seconds.

It's funny, though, before this "pass happy" phase of the 14 pass, 6 rush 2nd quarter started, we had just run on 9 of the previous 10. Doesn't running that much allow Beck to go to the air a bit? If we want to massage the numbers in terms of quarters, we had 13 runs to 6 passes in the first, and 6 runs to 14 passes in the second. A 19 run, 20 pass first quarter, where a run-heavy start set up a finish that can only be considered pass heavy because of the 2-minute drills.

There's a play or two or three in that first half you could say you wish for Beck to have called differently, but it's being made out to way more than it was.

 

[zoogs]

Second of all, I don't know many teams that would say they're comfortable attempting those long plays.

Nobody is comfortable attempting those, I guess, and I agree, the job on 1st down is to get into 2nd and manageable, third and manageable. The problem is, every team, no matter how good, will face long passing downs on third down. It really hamstrings the offense if failing to get into a good third down situation means we are more than likely screwed, and should just keep it on the ground and play field position.

Can work with a stifling defense (see 2009, when everybody hated the offense for playing that style of play), but any time we're in shootout and can't count on the D, can't do that.

 

[Hercules]

I'm going with the 14/15 stat because that was the one in several articles, including the one by Dirk Chatelain. It actually includes the first play of the 3rd quarter, which was Taylor Martinez's third interception.

zoogies, you made the argument that, "There's a play or two or three in that first half you could say you wish for Beck to have called differently, but it's being made out to way more than it was." 3 plays - isn't that all it takes? That's all it was from Martinez too - 3 bad decisions.

3 plays is a BIG deal. They can turn the game one way or the other. Why would Beck be held to a lower standard than his players? He's the adult, he's the one getting paid.

 

[walksalone]

Doesn't Beck realize, he's doing a lot of the same things Watson did, and we all know how that turned out...

 

[zoogs]

No, we are in full agreement on the fact that three plays - hell, not even three, one play, can make a huge difference. The three plays I am actually thinking of, there was 2nd-and-6 on the first 2-minute drive, and maybe a couple of plays, maybe, from the drives preceding Taylor's first interception.

I agree that Beck made some very critical errors. I just am trying to make the point that the numbers make it sound like he called a whole bunch of wrong plays and had a complete philosophy breakdown of an entire quarter's worth of pass happy plays. If there were a couple errors, it doesn't make Beck innocent in all this by any means, but I'm just saying, 14/15 is pretty misleading.

 

[bshirt]

Its' not misleading at all. Number don't lie and directly shows Beck somehow forgot his claim, "we'll hang our hat on running the ball".

If you're a "run-first" team you don't sling the ball around 15 times out of 17 plays. "Especially" in the friggin 2nd qtr when it's anybody's game. On the road too.....oh boy....it was a horrible mistake.

I still hope the best for Beck though. Everybody drops the ball now and then so let's just hope it was a silly brain fart. We got your back Tim, just don't do that again for awhile.....

GBR!!

 

[r06ue1]

Has Tim Beck ever coached the triple option? I feel like Bo hired him because they are friends and we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. We should only pass when the safeties come up to stop the run and Taylor needs to do a better job of finding the open receiver when that happens and not just tossing it to the guy he thinks will be open.

 

[Saunders]

There are ways to get Turner and Reed the ball without scrapping the run game completely like Beck did on Saturday. Turner is an athlete that doesn’t just need the ball thrown to him to make plays. Reed is a stud when we run play action not when we go 4 wide and he is trying to beat a DB one on one.

It's called a screen pass, and apparently, Beck thinks it's a unicorn. Callahan was a terrible head coach, but the guys knew when to call trick plays, and how to use a screen.

I don't know about this. Last year all anyone wanted was Taylor on roll-outs and screens, but I keep hearing people more knowledgeable than me talk about how Taylor is(was?) just not that strong in those areas. This year we've seen a lot of roll-outs and, well, they really haven't been that pretty.

Maybe we'll see some screens but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't have that really installed in this offense. Keep in mind Callahan was basically a wizard with installing and using screen plays, and also that our offense has enough on its plate already, in terms of the different things we are putting in and trying to do. They can't get every play in any playbook imaginable. Didn't we want the playbook paired down and the offense to be kept simple? Well, there are some sacrifices to be made there.

If not, then it's a fundamental flaw in Beck's offense. When you have a QB who is not a great or even good passer, you need to give him quick and easy throws. Also, when you the other D is doing what Wisconin was (sitting back and just waiting), a misdirection plays and screens will go a long way.

 

[skerman]

The one person who know if TM can make all them throws is BECK. TM is not a throwing qb and he never will be!! If beck is going to try to make a square beg fit in a round hole, were in for a long one. You NEVER lose the game in the 2nd qt. You run the ball, punt the ball and don't get crazy til the 4th qt. I think he will be a good OC for us. However his playcalling in the 2nd qt lost us the game!!

 

[zoogs]

Well, unless screens aren't such an easy throw for Taylor to make, and as such aren't worth the time installing. It looks like that's what Beck has decided and I'm going to side with him on this one.

 

[Saunders]

Well, unless screens aren't such an easy throw for Taylor to make, and as such aren't worth the time installing. It looks like that's what Beck has decided and I'm going to side with him on this one.

If that's the case, and TM can't throw a screen, then bench him. A screen or a shovel pass are about as easy as it gets.

 

[Jason Sitoke]

When does a pass play not work? I'm just looking for some opinions.

Does it not work when no one is open? Does it not work when there is no pass protection? Does it not work because the QB can't throw the ball to receiver that is open? Does it not work because the QB can't follow a progression? Do you not call a play when people are consistently open?

I was going to say that a pass play does not work when Martinez is QB, but he's gotten enough venom this week.

A downfield passing play does not work when a throw and catch is not executed. There are numerous reasons for this not happening: poor pass protection, poor throw, poor read, drop....

The heat is on Beck because his QB has not exhibited the ability to read and throw particularly well. If Joe Ganz had 8 years of eligibility and threw those picks on Saturday night in the exact same situation, we'd be all over Ganz about how he wasn't accurate and wasn't making his reads, because he HAS shown the ability to do those things, which would warrant an OC to put confidence in him throwing the football down the field. You wouldn't be criticizing Beck for putting a good throwing QB in favorable passing situations with open receivers.

 

[Enhance]

Well, unless screens aren't such an easy throw for Taylor to make, and as such aren't worth the time installing. It looks like that's what Beck has decided and I'm going to side with him on this one.

If that's the case, and TM can't throw a screen, then bench him. A screen or a shovel pass are about as easy as it gets.

Yeah..the only real challenging part about a screen is making sure the defense doesn't try and jump the route and intercept it, like what happened in '08 against Oklahoma on that short dump pass from Ganz. Those shouldn't be a problem for Martinez imo.

 

[zoogs]

I think it was something about the touch required on these. Also I thought we were talking about RB screens, not WR screens, which everyone has hated for a while. Martinez has those long throws that float simply because they go so far, but outside of that I'm not really sure he has any touch on his throws.

With these RB screens, the ball has to be pretty soft and well-placed - if the back has to adjust a lot to get to it, it really hurts his chances for picking up yards. And these plays are also in the face of pressure, as the OL doesn't really block some pass rushers by design, right? QB needs to lure those rushers to almost get to him and then cooly drop it off to the RB, so that he has some space to move. So I think there are several reasons that jump out as to why Taylor might struggle with these passes.

But there are as always, differing opinions on how effective he might be...