Born Again - Christianity and Cognitive Science

Husker_x

Husker_x

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This video is from the same person (or group?) that produced the God's Emotions series. The process of converting (or 'rededicating your life to Christ') is an extremely powerful and emotional experience that is hard to describe or relate to someone who has not shared it. It has been variously compared to drug-induced altered states or other spiritual practices that seek 'transcendence'. I personally had the experience on a couple of different occasions when I was younger, and though I obviously no longer believe these experiences to be in any way related to supernatural phenomena, it does beg the question, What is happening to people when they undergo these life-altering moments? What causes are at work?

This video delves a little deeper into the subject. Enjoy.


 
Husker_x said:
This video is from the same person (or group?) that produced the God's Emotions series. The process of converting (or 'rededicating your life to Christ') is an extremely powerful and emotional experience that is hard to describe or relate to someone who has not shared it. It has been variously compared to drug-induced altered states or other spiritual practices that seek 'transcendence'. I personally had the experience on a couple of different occasions when I was younger, and though I obviously no longer believe these experiences to be in any way related to supernatural phenomena, it does beg the question, What is happening to people when they undergo these life-altering moments? What causes are at work?

This video delves a little deeper into the subject. Enjoy.

Click to expand...

I'd take your suggestion a lot more seriously if your avatar were something else....

 
Yossarian said:
This video is from the same person (or group?) that produced the God's Emotions series. The process of converting (or 'rededicating your life to Christ') is an extremely powerful and emotional experience that is hard to describe or relate to someone who has not shared it. It has been variously compared to drug-induced altered states or other spiritual practices that seek 'transcendence'. I personally had the experience on a couple of different occasions when I was younger, and though I obviously no longer believe these experiences to be in any way related to supernatural phenomena, it does beg the question, What is happening to people when they undergo these life-altering moments? What causes are at work?

This video delves a little deeper into the subject. Enjoy.

Click to expand...

A Joseph Heller fan with no sense of irony! No way!

 
Husker_x said:
This video is from the same person (or group?) that produced the God's Emotions series. The process of converting (or 'rededicating your life to Christ') is an extremely powerful and emotional experience that is hard to describe or relate to someone who has not shared it. It has been variously compared to drug-induced altered states or other spiritual practices that seek 'transcendence'. I personally had the experience on a couple of different occasions when I was younger, and though I obviously no longer believe these experiences to be in any way related to supernatural phenomena, it does beg the question, What is happening to people when they undergo these life-altering moments? What causes are at work?

This video delves a little deeper into the subject. Enjoy.

Click to expand...

Actually, you are correct. Now, I have to rethink your recommendation that I watch the "Born Again..." video.

 
CNN has an article from a Christian pastor about where god was during the Aurora CO Batman shootings; this is the first comment...

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The author does an excellent job of providing statements of four people who sound like they’ve received the Holy Spirit. Even though the author chooses as two of her examples a Moonie cult member and an encounter group participant. She does this to “prove” that born again Christians do not have a monopoly on such feelings. Although I’m not sure what that really proves.

The author presents her arguments in a polished manner intended to sound unbiased and authoritative. Her soothing voice and calm demeanor are quite convincing. And she does an excellent job of sprinkling truths throughout her presentation. For example:

“This experience more than any other creates a sense of certainty about Christian belief.” “And so makes belief impervious to rational argumentation.” --Valarie Tarico, Youtube at 1:55 mark
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This statement of hers is absolutely the truth. Christians who have received the Holy Spirit don't have doubts about God. I can understand this. But for a long time I wondered why a non-believer such as the author would bother to create these elaborate and convincing presentations on a topic she doesn’t believe in. It turns out that the author—psychologist Dr. Valerie Tarico—has a major axe to grind stemming back to her own childhood. She grew up in an evangelical family, and for whatever reason she did not personally receive the Holy Spirit. But instead of examining her own heart and trying to figure out why she was passed over, she now devotes her life to debunking Christianity. LINK

And she is quite convincing in her Youtube presentations. I feel sorry for the people who believe these rather convincing videos created by Valerie Tarico. Rather than seeking the truth for themselves.

 
NUance said:
The author does an excellent job of providing statements of four people who sound like they’ve received the Holy Spirit. Even though the author chooses as two of her examples a Moonie cult member and an encounter group participant. She does this to “prove” that born again Christians do not have a monopoly on such feelings. Although I’m not sure what that really proves.

The author presents her arguments in a polished manner intended to sound unbiased and authoritative. Her soothing voice and calm demeanor are quite convincing. And she does an excellent job of sprinkling truths throughout her presentation. For example:

“This experience more than any other creates a sense of certainty about Christian belief.” “And so makes belief impervious to rational argumentation.” --Valarie Tarico, Youtube at 1:55 mark
Click to expand...
This statement of hers is absolutely the truth. Christians who have received the Holy Spirit don't have doubts about God. I can understand this. But for a long time I wondered why a non-believer such as the author would bother to create these elaborate and convincing presentations on a topic she doesn’t believe in. It turns out that the author—psychologist Dr. Valerie Tarico—has a major axe to grind stemming back to her own childhood. She grew up in an evangelical family, and for whatever reason she did not personally receive the Holy Spirit. But instead of examining her own heart and trying to figure out why she was passed over, she now devotes her life to debunking Christianity. LINK

And she is quite convincing in her Youtube presentations. I feel sorry for the people who believe these rather convincing videos created by Valerie Tarico. Rather than seeking the truth for themselves.
Click to expand...
1. It proves that the deeply personal and emotional experience of being "born again" is not unique to Christianity. Religious conversion happens in virtually every religion on the planet and has in all likelihood existed for thousands of years before Pentecost.

2. That statement is patently false. I've met dozens of Christians who profess to be Born Again by the power of the Holy Spirit and yet from time to time have doubts about God, up to and including his existence.

3. I think you may be mistaking an academic interest in the inner workings of the human mind for a bias or an 'axe to grind.' I don't know Ms. Tarico personally (she may or may not be bitter about her evangelical upbringing--not my place to say), and although Christians do seem to have an odd tendency to link any criticism or questioning of their faith with some kind of character defect, I would caution you against this lazy explanation. Not that I can't see the advantage of being dismissive; take your post, for example. Nowhere in there did you make any attempt at all, on any point, anywhere, to refute the substance of what she was saying. Instead you just asked an unrelated question about why non-religious people are interested in religion and expressed sympathy for people who don't believe your 'truth'--whatever it is (it went unstated).

I'll answer your question, though. It's because religion is interesting. What happens inside the brains of religious people when they practice their religion is interesting. The truth or falsehood of the religion is an entirely separate question.

 
The thing about the Holy Spirit is that it’s a very personal experience. When the Holy Spirit comes upon someone, only that person knows with certainty what the experience was like. That’s why it’s difficult to prove—or disprove—the existence of the Holy Spirit. I’ve had the good fortune to experience the Holy Spirit. So “doubt” is something I won’t ever have to worry about. Don’t get me wrong—I don’t claim to be an expert on God, or religion, or the Holy Spirit. I still have unanswered questions. For example, I don’t know why some people experience the Holy Spirit while others don’t. But I suspect it’s something that you shouldn’t take lightly. You shouldn’t take the word of some self-proclaimed expert with a PhD in psychology who broadcasts on the Youtube. And you shouldn’t take my word either. You should investigate for yourself. Lest somebody accuse you of being lazy.

 
NUance said:
The thing about the Holy Spirit is that it’s a very personal experience. When the Holy Spirit comes upon someone, only that person knows with certainty what the experience was like. That’s why it’s difficult to prove—or disprove—the existence of the Holy Spirit. I’ve had the good fortune to experience the Holy Spirit.
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very convenient isn't it? So is there a reason why anyone should believe until they have experienced the same thing?

So “doubt” is something I won’t ever have to worry about. Don’t get me wrong—I don’t claim to be an expert on God, or religion, or the Holy Spirit. I still have unanswered questions. For example, I don’t know why some people experience the Holy Spirit while others don’t. But I suspect it’s something that you shouldn’t take lightly.
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Meaning it's our fault? Or the Holy Spirit's fault for not providing more conclusive evidence? Why the mystery? You'd think a god would understand the importance of giving his message to his creation and that hiding it so that only a few "experience" the Holy Spirit, is the opposite of what he wants! He's amazingly stupid if he wants to actually achieve his goal through a pathway to truth. And, therefore, he doesn't exist or doesn't care about those who understand the nature of evidence to actually present it.

You shouldn’t take the word of some self-proclaimed expert with a PhD in psychology who broadcasts on the Youtube. And you shouldn’t take my word either. You should investigate for yourself. Lest somebody accuse you of being lazy.
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But you say there's no way to provide evidence of your experience, correct? So then how should one go about investigating this for themselves?

"If you're positing a god that can and does interact with reality, then there will be evidence for this (otherwise, how would you know any interaction had taken place). We can, and do, test psychics and investigate all sorts of supernatural claims.

If you're positing a god that doesn't interact with reality... why? That which doesn't manifest is indistinguishable from that which doesn't exist."

I'm not taking the word of someone with a PhD, nor am I taking the word of someone who proclaims they have seen/been endowed with the Holy Spirit. Unless it's something I can verify with a naturalistic or scientific process...I don't recognize it as something I should be concerned with. The supernatural is at odds with the natural world I live in.

 
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NUance said:
The thing about the Holy Spirit is that it’s a very personal experience. When the Holy Spirit comes upon someone, only that person knows with certainty what the experience was like. That’s why it’s difficult to prove—or disprove—the existence of the Holy Spirit. I’ve had the good fortune to experience the Holy Spirit. So “doubt” is something I won’t ever have to worry about. Don’t get me wrong—I don’t claim to be an expert on God, or religion, or the Holy Spirit. I still have unanswered questions. For example, I don’t know why some people experience the Holy Spirit while others don’t. But I suspect it’s something that you shouldn’t take lightly. You shouldn’t take the word of some self-proclaimed expert with a PhD in psychology who broadcasts on the Youtube. And you shouldn’t take my word either. You should investigate for yourself. Lest somebody accuse you of being lazy.
Click to expand...
I was myself once a Christian who had several spiritual experiences that I felt at the time perfectly fit the ones others described as the Holy Spirit. Some of them happened in group worship settings and were very powerful. Others were much more subtle and personal and happened during private devotions or quieter settings. Now I know the standard Christian response is that because I hold the position I do now--that these experiences in no way require a divine explanation--that means I never really experienced the Holy Spirit. They won't be able to tell me what was different for them or why, but they're sure of that much. I admit I can't refute this claim, partly because it's a No True Scotsman situation, but mostly because the definition of 'Holy Spirit' is conveniently vague.

It's her arguments and evidence that are convincing, not her degree, and that what she says lines up not only with my religious experiences, but with other Christians, other Jews, other Muslims, Moonies, etc. The argument which doesn't force me to assume that a magical spirit-ghost invades my body is better than the other one, especially when psychology and neuroscience provide such incredible insights into how our brains work.

 
I am not trying to engage in an argument here that neither side could possibly win. I’m just relating my own experience. You can choose to believe me, or not believe me. Or you could just check it out for yourself. That is, if you are open minded enough to do so.

 
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NUance said:
I am not trying to engage in an argument here that neither side could possibly win. I’m just relating my own experience. You can choose to believe me, or not believe me. Or you could just check it out for yourself. That is, if you are open minded enough to do so.
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I don't know what I'm not being opened minded about or what I'm supposed to check out.

 
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