3-4 defense “prototypes” vs our starters

[The Dude]

Because 225 is extraordinary small.

Von Miller is 250. DeMarcus Ware is 260. That's about the range for a prototype 34 OLB.

I would say a guy at 250+ on one side and a guy around 225+ on the other sounds ideal to me. A cover guy and a rush guy. Deonne Bucannon on one side DeMarcus Ware on the other

Ideally you want both outside linebackers to be able to rush the passer, play the run, and play coverage. As it works out in most 34 defenses, I think, is one guy is better in coverage and one is better as a run stopper, but both are pass rushers. 225 is awfully small to be battling offensive tackles in the trenches.
As LumberJack pointed out, Buchannon isn't a 34 OLB. But he likely would be an OLB in a 4-3. He's more of a safety-linebacker hybrid. 34 OLBs are defensive end-linebacker hybrids.

 

[BIG ERN]

Mick isn't a natural 300lb - that's my biggest gripe. The same mass and weight to throw around isn't the same as Daniels for ex.

 

[FrankWheeler]

Mick isn't a natural 300lb - that's my biggest gripe. The same mass and weight to throw around isn't the same as Daniels for ex.

Who is a 'natural" 300 pounds?

Edit: To clarify... you don't get very many kids coming out of high school carrying 300 pounds in a good way. To be able to put that weight on under a good S&C program is ideal, no?

 

[The Dude]

Who is a 'natural" 300 pounds?

Yao Ming.

McStoltenberg appears to be a fairly lean 310. If anything he has the frame to get to over 330 and still be able to move well.

 

[spurs1990]

Dontari Poe - 346

Dan Williams - 330

Damon Harrison - 350

Brandon Williams - 335

Linval Joseph - 329

330-350 seems to be about the range for prototype nose guards.

Vince Wilfork is 325 now, but was about 375 when he was playing nose. Albert Haynesworth was an elite nose guard for a lot of years at 350.

I wouldn't say 235 for OLB or 315 for NG is too small necessarily. If you can play, you can play. It's just not prototypical.

350 still seems to be the exception rather than the norm for MOST successful nose guards. You can find some excellent ones around there but Damon Harrison seems to be the only one really who has reached that point.

Bringing it back down to college, it does not seem like a feasible weight. You do have some very successful guys that can play at that, but it's certainly not the weight you look for in that player IMO. I'm really arguing over a non important topic and I recognize that

I think if Mick can gain any weight really from 310 he's fine. He's probably decent where he is at now, but another 5-10 wouldn't hurt I guess.

 

[RedDenver]

Mick is reportedly quite strong, which may be as important a factor as weight.

And the body size of the OLB is going to depend on what they're asked to do. If the field OLB is playing in space (as I get the impression he will), then being quicker will be more of an advantage than weight.

 

[Huskers44]

Because 225 is extraordinary small.

Von Miller is 250. DeMarcus Ware is 260. That's about the range for a prototype 34 OLB.

 

[BIG ERN]

Mick isn't a natural 300lb - that's my biggest gripe. The same mass and weight to throw around isn't the same as Daniels for ex.

Who is a 'natural" 300 pounds?

Edit: To clarify... you don't get very many kids coming out of high school carrying 300 pounds in a good way. To be able to put that weight on under a good S&C program is ideal, no?

Mick is a lean 300+ which I don't think works as well as someone who has always been 'chubby'. Being able to move well as a NT in a 3-4 doesn't matter a whole lot. It's more about eating 2 lineman each play to free up the LBs

 

[Making Chimichangas]

As I read this thread, it amazes me that nobody is drawing a distinction between the NFL and college. Which is weird because they are as similar as a car and a building.

In the NFL, teams can pick and choose the best individual players to fit their needs. These are young men who have spent 3-5 years in a university's strength and conditioning program. So yeah, in a 3-4, the NT is going to be 300-335 pounds and OLBs are going to be in the 245-260 range.

But colleges are recruiting kids out of high school. I don't know how many kids coming out of high school are NFL ready, especially along the DL and at LB, but I will venture to say not very many, if any at all.

So this talk of ideal or prototype size for schools running a 3-4 is a bit overstated.

 

[spurs1990]

As I read this thread, it amazes me that nobody is drawing a distinction between the NFL and college. Which is weird because they are as similar as a car and a building.

In the NFL, teams can pick and choose the best individual players to fit their needs. These are young men who have spent 3-5 years in a university's strength and conditioning program. So yeah, in a 3-4, the NT is going to be 300-335 pounds and OLBs are going to be in the 245-260 range.

But colleges are recruiting kids out of high school. I don't know how many kids coming out of high school are NFL ready, especially along the DL and at LB, but I will venture to say not very many, if any at all.

So this talk of ideal or prototype size for schools running a 3-4 is a bit overstated.

I attempted to do that by saying that even NFL guys hardly even get to 350 and that this wasn't a feasible college weight. I just used the NFL as an example to show that even the biggest and best guys sometimes don't even get to that weight.

 

[BigRedBuster]

That is a good point Chimi....

We seem to have fallen into this because NFL player statistics are much easier to find and compare. For the life of me, I couldn't tell you what colleges are using a 3-4 defense to even remotely start to compare what various sizes of players is working and what isn't.

 

[Making Chimichangas]

As I read this thread, it amazes me that nobody is drawing a distinction between the NFL and college. Which is weird because they are as similar as a car and a building.

In the NFL, teams can pick and choose the best individual players to fit their needs. These are young men who have spent 3-5 years in a university's strength and conditioning program. So yeah, in a 3-4, the NT is going to be 300-335 pounds and OLBs are going to be in the 245-260 range.

But colleges are recruiting kids out of high school. I don't know how many kids coming out of high school are NFL ready, especially along the DL and at LB, but I will venture to say not very many, if any at all.

So this talk of ideal or prototype size for schools running a 3-4 is a bit overstated.

I attempted to do that by saying that even NFL guys hardly even get to 350 and that this wasn't a feasible college weight. I just used the NFL as an example to show that even the biggest and best guys sometimes don't even get to that weight.

I get ya.

I mean obviously we want talented players who are at the minimum close to that ideal weight. For example, you wouldn't want a 220 DE in 3-4 scheme or a 250 NT...you'd get dominated along the line of scrimmage by OLs averaging 290-300.

But in college, a 290 pound NT and 260 pound DE's would definitely work.

Stanford's 2016 roster: http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/roster/_/id/24/stanford-cardinal

Alabama's 2016 roster: http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/roster/_/id/333

A casual glance at both rosters seems to indicate two things:

1) Current defensive players on Nebraska's roster appear to be similar in average size to those two schools, and

2) while Alabama appears to have more players closer to "proto-typical" NFL size, even the Tide has "under-sized" players in their 3-4 scheme.

Here is Nebraska's 2016 roster: http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/roster/_/id/158

If someone wants to do the math and average out the heights and weights of these respective schools DL and LBs, to see just how much difference there is--why that would be great.

 

[FrankWheeler]

Mick isn't a natural 300lb - that's my biggest gripe. The same mass and weight to throw around isn't the same as Daniels for ex.

Who is a 'natural" 300 pounds?

Edit: To clarify... you don't get very many kids coming out of high school carrying 300 pounds in a good way. To be able to put that weight on under a good S&C program is ideal, no?

Mick is a lean 300+ which I don't think works as well as someone who has always been 'chubby'. Being able to move well as a NT in a 3-4 doesn't matter a whole lot. It's more about eating 2 lineman each play to free up the LBs

Please clarify - you were talking about a natural '300' and then 'chubby'. Are you saying they need to make Mick 'chubby' to be a successful nose?

 

[BIG ERN]

Mick isn't a natural 300lb - that's my biggest gripe. The same mass and weight to throw around isn't the same as Daniels for ex.

Who is a 'natural" 300 pounds?

Edit: To clarify... you don't get very many kids coming out of high school carrying 300 pounds in a good way. To be able to put that weight on under a good S&C program is ideal, no?

Mick is a lean 300+ which I don't think works as well as someone who has always been 'chubby'. Being able to move well as a NT in a 3-4 doesn't matter a whole lot. It's more about eating 2 lineman each play to free up the LBs

Please clarify - you were talking about a natural '300' and then 'chubby'. Are you saying they need to make Mick 'chubby' to be a successful nose?

Meaning for instance if you looked at Daniels in 7th grade he was chubby, (Same thing for almost all DT or NTs) where Mick was more lean and muscle.

I also see many times when someone adds too much weight on their frame and then wonder why their knees blow out several times

 

[Nebfanatic]

Because 225 is extraordinary small.

Von Miller is 250. DeMarcus Ware is 260. That's about the range for a prototype 34 OLB.

I would say a guy at 250+ on one side and a guy around 225+ on the other sounds ideal to me. A cover guy and a rush guy. Deonne Bucannon on one side DeMarcus Ware on the other

Ideally you want both outside linebackers to be able to rush the passer, play the run, and play coverage. As it works out in most 34 defenses, I think, is one guy is better in coverage and one is better as a run stopper, but both are pass rushers. 225 is awfully small to be battling offensive tackles in the trenches.
As LumberJack pointed out, Buchannon isn't a 34 OLB. But he likely would be an OLB in a 4-3. He's more of a safety-linebacker hybrid. 34 OLBs are defensive end-linebacker hybrids.

That may be true about Buchanon but I think in Diaco's scheme the players will resemble more of a 4-2-5 look than traditional 3-4. To me that translates to 2 hybrid players. One hybrid LB/DE and one hybrid LB/DB. That's just my take but I could be wrong.