Adrian Martinez

[BigRedBuster]

I get you but he is right.  So much more goes into it- right team, right position, win loss record, media, etc...  It is widely thought, even outside of Nebraska, that Suh was the best player the year he should have won it.  I think it's more of a popularity contest than a true vote for who is the best based on individual merits alone.  

The Heisman is NOT the most outstanding player in the country.

The Heisman is the best QB or RB on a top 3 team.  Maybe....sometimes.....every once in a while, they will include WR.

I've lost a lot of respect for the award over the years.  But, I would still love a Husker to win it again.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Patrick Mahomes had insanely good numbers at Texas Tech but never cracked the Top 10 in Heisman votes (Florida State running back Dalvin Cook did. Remember him?) The argument was that Mahomes played in a college offense that skewed the stats. Also, I think TT had a really s#!tty defense and a losing season in 2016.  So that was probably the right call. 

But does having a s#!tty defense mean you're not the best college quarterback? That's where I saw this Tommy, Adrian, Taylor, Eric discussion going. 

The Heisman has never been a great indicator of future success. More often it's been the opposite: the high point of a career. But since I'm pretty sure every college competitor was aiming for the NFL his whole life, it does end up getting talked about. 

 

[In the Deed the Glory]

Patrick Mahomes had insanely good numbers at Texas Tech but never cracked the Top 10 in Heisman votes (Florida State running back Dalvin Cook did. Remember him?) The argument was that Mahomes played in a college offense that skewed the stats. Also, I think TT had a really s#!tty defense and a losing season in 2016.  So that was probably the right call. 

But does having a s#!tty defense mean you're not the best college quarterback? That's where I saw this Tommy, Adrian, Taylor, Eric discussion going. 

The Heisman has never been a great indicator of future success. More often it's been the opposite: the high point of a career. But since I'm pretty sure every college competitor was aiming for the NFL his whole life, it does end up getting talked about. 

Either you’re joking or don’t watch a lot of the NFL…

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Either you’re joking or don’t watch a lot of the NFL…

Wasn't really joking, but it didn't exactly make my point to grab the guy at #10, Should have gone with the guy tied with Cook: Donnell Pumphrey. 

Quite a bit of talent in that 2016 Heisman class.  

 

[Lorewarn]

I get you but he is right.  So much more goes into it- right team, right position, win loss record, media, etc...  It is widely thought, even outside of Nebraska, that Suh was the best player the year he should have won it.  I think it's more of a popularity contest than a true vote for who is the best based on individual merits alone.  

I completely agree it is a narrative-based award but I assumed all the narrative stuff was included when we're discussing someone's "college career". The suggestion here seemed to be that Crouch's Heisman is somehow lesser because he didn't go on to NFL success as other winners did. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Loewarn and if I am my bad. 

Y'all missed my point.

The Heisman is an award for a season, not a career.

 

[Cdog923]

Wasn't really joking, but it didn't exactly make my point to grab the guy at #10, Should have gone with the guy tied with Cook: Donnell Pumphrey. 

Quite a bit of talent in that 2016 Heisman class.  

Donell Pumphrey. The guys current out of the NFL. Coaching HS ball in California. Vs.

Dalvin Cook. A 2x Pro Bowler. Rushed for 1500 yards last year. 

 

[admo]

I'm reading a lot of admiration for Crouch on these posts, and some scattered acknowledgement that he may have been over-rated. You can do both without being a hater. Eric's hardly the only Heisman winner who got saddled with unfair expectations. He was a system quarterback, and Nebraska was the perfect system for him. 

A system quarterback, huh?  I might have to disagree

(also, you may want to mute the music with the first video;  You definitely want to mute music at 4:50 if you're around anyone. I'm ok with it though)

 

[Lorewarn]

A system quarterback, huh?  I might have to disagree

(also, you may want to mute the music with the first video;  You definitely want to mute music at 4:50 if you're around anyone. I'm ok with it though)

I'm curious what your definition of a system quarterback is? That second video has people literally saying he was essentially a runningback playing quarterback.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Donell Pumphrey. The guys current out of the NFL. Coaching HS ball in California. Vs.

Dalvin Cook. A 2x Pro Bowler. Rushed for 1500 yards last year. 

Yeah. That's why I should have used Pumphrey as the #10. Not the guy he was tied with.

Like I just said.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

3 hours ago, admo said:



A system quarterback, huh?  I might have to disagree

(also, you may want to mute the music with the first video;  You definitely want to mute music at 4:50 if you're around anyone. I'm ok with it though)

By "system quarterback" I mean a system that lets high school dual threat quarterbacks play QB at Nebraska, when the vast majority of college coaches would ask them to convert to RB, WR or defensive secondary. Triple option or RPO, Nebraska has put a premium on rushing over passing accuracy. 

This video notwithstanding, Eric completed 55% of his passes for 1,500 yards, 7 TDs and 10 interceptions his Heisman year, numbers that even Husker fans don't accept these days. He really made a name for himself running the ball and winning games -- and that's the way to remember him. But the same Eric Crouch probably doesn't work in other systems, and wouldn't win the same games with a current Husker defense.  

 

[Toe]

But the same Eric Crouch probably doesn't work in other systems

So what? Should we hold it against Suh that he didn't really work in Callahan's defense?

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

So what? Should we hold it against Suh that he didn't really work in Callahan's defense?

WTH are you guys talking about at this point?  

It' was a pretty interesting conversation about Adrian Martinez, and how he compares to more recent dual threat quarterbacks including NU total offense leaders Tommy Armstrong and Taylor Martinez, which led to Eric Crouch being thrown into the mix. 

Now we're supposed to pretend that Nebraska hasn't built an offense around dual threat quarterbacks for the past 30 years, often taking less-recruited QBs who are better runners than passers? 

That Crouch benefitted from a system that included better everything at every position than Adrian isn't hating on Crouch. It's pretty pertinent to any discussion about Nebraska football.    

 

[admo]

I'm curious what your definition of a system quarterback is? That second video has people literally saying he was essentially a runningback playing quarterback.

A system quarterback is a marginal player.  He relies on the talent around him, for the team to be successful.  He has limited skills and is replaceable.  The next QB will do fine too, as long as there is really good talent on the team.  

The second video is literally saying Crouch didn't have many options around him.  It was run, pass, scramble, make a play.  And he was extraordinary, like most great quarterbacks.

 

[admo]

By "system quarterback" I mean a system that lets high school dual threat quarterbacks play QB at Nebraska, when the vast majority of college coaches would ask them to convert to RB, WR or defensive secondary. Triple option or RPO, Nebraska has put a premium on rushing over passing accuracy. 

This video notwithstanding, Eric completed 55% of his passes for 1,500 yards, 7 TDs and 10 interceptions his Heisman year, numbers that even Husker fans don't accept these days. He really made a name for himself running the ball and winning games -- and that's the way to remember him. But the same Eric Crouch probably doesn't work in other systems, and wouldn't win the same games with a current Husker defense.  

It's ok, I know.  The year was 2001.  We were on 56K modems at the time.  And yes, if they had a shotgun read pass option as the norm back then, he would have excelled.  Just imagine if he had Rex Burkhead, Roy Helu and Ameer Abdullah (like Taylor Martinez did) running the RPO.  Or having Jordan Westerkamp and Brandon Reilly?  or Morgan Stanley and JD Spielman?  Or having the peso defense on your side, with N.Suh, Jared Crick, Randy Gregory.  With surrounding players like that, in an offense like that, with a defense like that, he probably goes undefeated back-to-back years. Without it, he was amazing and a Heisman.

 

[Lorewarn]

A system quarterback is a marginal player.  He relies on the talent around him, for the team to be successful. 

I guess per what the actual term is, I define a system player as someone who relies on the system around him to be successful, not the talent around him.

Isn't the whole point of the concept of a system player that the system is designed to make up for the deficiencies in talent?

Crouch didn't rely on the talent around him to be successful, but the system was absolutely 100% a major factor in him being successful. He wouldn't have started or even played as a quarterback at Miami or Florida.