Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Big Red 40 said:
Lots of talk here about financial aspects of Cortezs proposals, but i was noticing a few that wouldn't cost a thing. They are just common human decency. 
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Also true.  But we can't have common decency and treating everyone with a basic level of courtesy, dignity, and respect though...that's the devil's socialism talking there.  

:ahhhhhhhh     :D

 
TheSker said:
I fully realize it's an internet message board and we all "know people" who are the exception.

My original statement was chopped anyway......I said capitalism provides an opportunity.  I did not say "if x, then y".

Does a socialistic system offer incentive for productivity?  That's probably my main question.
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Give a read to the definition of democratic socialism - the short answer to your question is yes.  Incentive is increased (or not) based on increased productivity.

Socialism's mantra is, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution." Everyone in society receives a share of the production based on how much each has contributed.  That motivates them to work long hours if they want to receive more.

Workers receive their share after a percentage has been deducted for the common good. Examples are transportation, defense, and education. Some also define the common good as caring for those who can't directly contribute to production. Examples include the elderly, children, and their caretakers.

Socialism assumes that the basic nature of people is cooperative. That nature hasn't yet emerged in full because capitalism or feudalism has forced people to be competitive. Therefore, a basic tenet of socialism is that the economic system must support this basic human nature for these qualities to emerge.

These factors are valued for their usefulness to people. This includes individual needs and greater social needs. That might include preservation of natural resources, education, or health care. That requires most economic decisions to be made by central planning, as in a command economy.
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edit:  posted this before I scrolled through and saw Big Red 40's Democratic Socialism comments - he nailed it.

 
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Well at least people are being open and honest about their desires for socialism and/or democratic socialism. It's much better to call these things what they are rather than acting like it's not some radical departure from what this country was founded on and what it has stood for for so many years. I won't say our system hasn't devolved and doesn't need to be tweaked, heavily in some cases but it should be easier as long as we know exactly how certain groups or individuals want to change things.

 
Comfortably Numb said:
Well at least people are being open and honest about their desires for socialism and/or democratic socialism. It's much better to call these things what they are rather than acting like it's not some radical departure from what this country was founded on and what it has stood for for so many years. I won't say our system hasn't devolved and doesn't need to be tweaked, heavily in some cases but it should be easier as long as we know exactly how certain groups or individuals want to change things.
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That's the entire reason the 1st Amendment exists - to allow open discussion about our policies and politics.

I think we need socialism in parts of our society and economy like law enforcement, fire fighting (cue teachercd complaining), the military, infrastructure (roads, bridges, airports), etc. The discussion shouldn't be about whether capitalism or socialism is good or bad or whatever - it should be about what policies we should implement to solve our problems and make our society and country a better place for us. Various "-isms" can give us ideas to form these solutions and to debate their merits, but none of the "-isms" will ever be the end-all, be-all for all of our issues.

 
I agree . And while you, and I, and many on this board may understand that I don’t think millions of Americans do . They are conditioned to be scared,  and fiercely reject anything associated with the word socialism . I think If it’s explained enough, in the right way, it may ease those fears , and help them realize that these concepts are actually beneficial to them, and could improve their lives . 

 
knapplc said:
It's always amazing to me when self-declared Christians speak out against Socialism.
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There seem to be a lot of things in the Bible Christians are opposed to politically. I'm sure there are good excuses for all of those things.

 
knapplc said:
It's always amazing to me when self-declared Christians speak out against Socialism.
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That is baffling, like when self-declared non-Christians and non-believers completely embrace socialism and the primary message of Jesus. It's a real headscratcher.

 
knapplc said:
What's the primary message of Jesus?
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I suppose there are a lot of possible answers to that question. Some may say the Golden rule; love others as yourself. Some may say it is the salvation message. What I was referring to by "primary" (sorry, I may have used primary incorrectly) was the overarching theme of socialism contained in Jesus' teachings.

 
Comfortably Numb said:
I suppose there are a lot of possible answers to that question. Some may say the Golden rule; love others as yourself. Some may say it is the salvation message. What I was referring to by "primary" (sorry, I may have used primary incorrectly) was the overarching theme of socialism contained in Jesus' teachings.
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Jesus didn't invent those ideas/ideals. They can be found in philosophical tenets that pre- and post-date Jesus, as well as religions that pre- and post-date his time. So atheist Socialists who embrace loving one another, caring for the less fortunate, feeding & clothing the poor & hungry... they're just embracing basic human ideals.

I wouldn't think humans doing those things is really that much of a head-scratcher.

 
knapplc said:
Jesus didn't invent those ideas/ideals. They can be found in philosophical tenets that pre- and post-date Jesus, as well as religions that pre- and post-date his time. So atheist Socialists who embrace loving one another, caring for the less fortunate, feeding & clothing the poor & hungry... they're just embracing basic human ideals.

I wouldn't think humans doing those things is really that much of a head-scratcher.
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I identify as a Christian. But I always get a chuckle when people claim morality started with us. I once had a conversation with a person that claimed murder was considered appropriate until we had the 10 Commandments. She couldn’t really explain why Moses had to go into hiding after murdering an Egyptian...

 
knapplc said:
Jesus didn't invent those ideas/ideals. They can be found in philosophical tenets that pre- and post-date Jesus, as well as religions that pre- and post-date his time. So atheist Socialists who embrace loving one another, caring for the less fortunate, feeding & clothing the poor & hungry... they're just embracing basic human ideals.

I wouldn't think humans doing those things is really that much of a head-scratcher.
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As usual the point was severely missed. I don't think Jesus or Christians invented these ideas and I sure don't think they are exclusive to any group of people. Anybody that got that as the take away from what I said either doesn't want to have an honest discussion or is too mired in preconceived notions about others.

I'll try to be more clear. My point was more of a question, why are you amazed that some Christians struggle with some concepts of socialism? Do you actually believe or think it is healthy for each and every member of any particular group (Christians, atheists, Democrats....whatever) to subscribe fully to each and every platform bullet point of said group?

Yes I am a Christian and yes I struggle with accepting many issues of socialism. I know what Jesus had to say on these matters. I know I am running afoul of the party line on some of them. But as much as it pains me to admit it, it is pretty darned easy to promote some of these things when you have the ability to say feed thousands with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread or to raise people from the dead. It's a lot more difficult when you've seen hundreds of examples of people not willing to help themselves or others and a whole world history of socialistic policies not culminating in the Utopia so many claim they will deliver. Frankly I don't find it amazing in the least when some people, Christians or otherwise, struggle with these things. In a perfect world pure socialism would be awesome. In our f'd up broken world, ehhh not so much.

 
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Comfortably Numb said:
it is pretty darned easy to promote some of these things when you have the ability to say feed thousands with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread or to raise people from the dead. It's a lot more difficult when you've seen hundreds of examples of people not willing to help themselves or others and a whole world history of socialistic policies not culminating in the Utopia so many claim they will deliver.
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In your first sentence you said it was easier for Jesus to preach these ideas, and in your next sentence you said it was harder for Jesus (who is God, who has seen billions of examples of people not willing to help themselves) to believe these ideas. Which is it? :P

 
Comfortably Numb said:
As usual the point was severely missed. I don't think Jesus or Christians invented these ideas and I sure don't think they are exclusive to any group of people. Anybody that got that as the take away from what I said either doesn't want to have an honest discussion or is too mired in preconceived notions about others.

I'll try to be more clear. My point was more of a question, why are you amazed that some Christians struggle with some concepts of socialism? Do you actually believe or think it is healthy for each and every member of any particular group (Christians, atheists, Democrats....whatever) to subscribe fully to each and every platform bullet point of said group?

Yes I am a Christian and yes I struggle with accepting many issues of socialism. I know what Jesus had to say on these matters. I know I am running afoul of the party line on some of them. But as much as it pains me to admit it, it is pretty darned easy to promote some of these things when you have the ability to say feed thousands with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread or to raise people from the dead. It's a lot more difficult when you've seen hundreds of examples of people not willing to help themselves or others and a whole world history of socialistic policies not culminating in the Utopia so many claim they will deliver. Frankly I don't find it amazing in the least when some people, Christians or otherwise, struggle with these things. In a perfect world pure socialism would be awesome. In our f'd up broken world, ehhh not so much.
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I always appreciate it when my neighbor points out the speck in my eye. 

Comfortably Numb said:
why are you amazed that some Christians struggle with some concepts of socialism?
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Because Christ's teachings are heavily socialist. He decries avarice, he preaches tolerance, he exhorts his followers to give up worldly things, to help the poor, the sick, the less fortunate.  Selfless giving, loving and understanding... these are the very basics of Christianity.  Why wouldn't I be amazed that people who claim to be Christian struggle with these things?

This is like saying I shouldn't be amazed at someone who avers that they love hamburgers above all other foods, but who wants their hamburger on a long bun split down the middle, with the meat in tube form and tasting vaguely of bologna, covered in relish & mustard. That's not a hamburger, that's a hot dog. Wouldn't you kinda be amazed that someone claims to love only hamburgers in that circumstance?

Comfortably Numb said:
Do you actually believe or think it is healthy for each and every member of any particular group (Christians, atheists, Democrats....whatever) to subscribe fully to each and every platform bullet point of said group?
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I don't think it's too high of a hurdle to expect self-declared Christians to follow the teachings of Christ. Do you?

 
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