America's Changing Religious Landscape

[sd'sker]

How do you guys square with the idea that not being Christian is a dark path that leads to destruction? That everyone in history who was not taught to believe in your God is doomed to be denied access to the exclusive club of heaven, no matter how they lived their own lives? That seems like the implication here, and I apologize if I am misunderstanding.

I mean, there's a lot of good people, surely, covered in that list.

A big tenet of Christianity as I have understood it has always been about loving your fellow man. There's something not very loving or accepting about saying, "I deserve heaven and these people [in this case the millions of Americans cited in the survey] do not."

Personally, I think that if there is a God, and if he is particular enough to create an in/out gate to paradise for his human creations, the last thing he will care about, of all their mortal thoughts and deeds, is whether someone believed in him or not. If he has created a heaven, there will be plenty of time to bring folks up to speed. An eternity, even.

It's not that we are square with it. It's rather unfortunate. But it's cited in the Bible. It's not that we say it's that way, Jesus (God) said it is that way.

Matthew 7:13-14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

you cannot quote the bible as evidence of why the bible is right. that is just simple-minded nonsense.

and if it is true; thanks god, for needlessly making the gate narrow.

 

[zoogs]

I think he did answer the question, sd'sker. I asked for what the Bible's position is.

 

[zoogs]

Jesus speaks of Hell as a reality:

Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

From another thread, but I thought it'd be more pertinent here. In continuing from Landlord's last point about heaven the destination not being the point, Jesus's teachings being about the here and now, and good works as natural byproducts of faith --

Well, I think those three points are quite decently made. #2 shows Jesus had an admirable focus point in his teachings, and #3 tells me where you personally are coming from, and is very respectable. #1 seems like good way to think about things, too, but I just feel it diminishes the role of believer/nonbeliever distinction in the Bible that I've been asking about.

For example, while your faith may produce the natural byproducts that make you who you are, surely some very similar and equally good works can be the product of other things for other people. Living life abundantly, loving others, these things are not exclusive to followers to Christ; at least, any suggestion that it is should be criticized rather than revered.

But Jesus is claimed to be making that distinction. For the righteous are taken to Heaven, and what makes them righteous is their acceptance of and belief in Christ. The rest are separated from the righteous to gnash their teeth in hell, and are called "evil." Clearly to me, if you're not with us, you're against us is a human attitude, and not a very good one. If the New Testament (which Gospel of Matthew is, right?) teaches this, then even if we hold it as divinely inspired, I would argue that it must be also rife with unfortunate human corruptions.

Being a good person on earth should not involve telling people that they will be doomed if they do not follow the same faith.

 

[BigRedBuster]

How do you guys square with the idea that not being Christian is a dark path that leads to destruction? That everyone in history who was not taught to believe in your God is doomed to be denied access to the exclusive club of heaven, no matter how they lived their own lives? That seems like the implication here, and I apologize if I am misunderstanding.

I mean, there's a lot of good people, surely, covered in that list.

A big tenet of Christianity as I have understood it has always been about loving your fellow man. There's something not very loving or accepting about saying, "I deserve heaven and these people [in this case the millions of Americans cited in the survey] do not."

Personally, I think that if there is a God, and if he is particular enough to create an in/out gate to paradise for his human creations, the last thing he will care about, of all their mortal thoughts and deeds, is whether someone believed in him or not. If he has created a heaven, there will be plenty of time to bring folks up to speed. An eternity, even.

It's not that we are square with it. It's rather unfortunate. But it's cited in the Bible. It's not that we say it's that way, Jesus (God) said it is that way.

Matthew 7:13-14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

you cannot quote the bible as evidence of why the bible is right. that is just simple-minded nonsense.

and if it is true; thanks god, for needlessly making the gate narrow.

What other writings do you want people to reference? At this point in history, very very very little was ever written down. In fact, it is amazing that these books that were put together to form the Bible were even written down.

It's pretty difficult to use other writings as evidence of something existing or happening when nobody ever wrote anything down.

 

[zoogs]

Okay, I agree on "what other writings do you want people to reference" because I was asking specifically about what the Christian position was, but will have to dispute the idea that hardly anything was written during the 1st century CE.

There is a rich history of writing dating from way before that, whether in the Mediterranean world or beyond. Of course, what texts survive over the millenia has had a lot with cultural and political movements, the outcomes of wars, and so on. Which particular surviving books and letters from that era were ultimately agreed to be canon is another topic, too, and things may have turned out differently had certain sects prevailed over others.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Okay, I agree on "what other writings do you want people to reference" because I was asking specifically about what the Christian position was, but will have to dispute the idea that hardly anything was written during the 1st century CE.

There is a rich history of writing dating from way before that, whether in the Mediterranean world or beyond. Of course, what texts survive over the millenia has had a lot with cultural and political movements, the outcomes of wars, and so on. Which particular surviving books and letters from that era were ultimately agreed to be canon is another topic, too, and things may have turned out differently had certain sects prevailed over others.

Yes, there are things that are written down. But, they are mainly from a relatively small part of the population. Some scholars wrote writings about wars...etc. There's not a Bethlehem Times Chronicle that we can go to the card catalogue and the library and pull up the current events of the day.

There isn't a local news paper that would have documented many of the things that happened during that time. That doesn't mean they didn't happen.

 

[zoogs]

I think we're having different conversations here. I'm not talking about using anything as evidence, but just focusing on this:

At this point in history, very very very little was ever written down. In fact, it is amazing that these books that were put together to form the Bible were even written down

And I'm going to have to take HUGE issue with the suggestion that pre-Bible all we had were "some scholars writing about wars etc." This was not the case even hundreds of years before the later half of the first century CE. I think you know that, though?...which is why I think we're having different conversations.

To the point about the existence of the Bible, I do not think it's that amazing. Not everyone was a scholar, but writing books or letters was not rare. There are many that haven't survived. Any texts that would become as revered by so many and influential as these...well, of course they were the ones that survived. If people felt differently, or if different sects of the new movements had succeeded instead, we'd probably be talking about different source material, right?

 

[Landlord]

Not to mention that the 'point' of history that the Bible being written falls into is over 1500 years.

That's not much of a point.

 

[funhusker]

I don't care that more people are choosing not to believe. More room for me when I get to the pearly gates.

Not trying to judge, just a friendly "heads up":

A selfish attitude like this may possibly get you the same result as a person that has had "a lot more fun" in life....Assuming that is the way you live your live.

Sometimes I think God's message would be much more receivable if he didn't put "people" in charge of its delivery

 

[BigRedBuster]

I saw this on Facebook and clicked on it due to our discussions on here. I found it interesting. I especially believe the last point.

5 Ways Churches Inflicted Pain on Themselves

5. We trashed our reputation.

We became known as judgmental, angry, self-serving, smug, boring, and old. As far as people outside can tell, we live to fight, we think too highly of ourselves, and we are moral scolds. Who needs that?

What, then, is the future? The future for God is as bright and glorious as ever. Our ever-changing, ever-dynamic, ever-loving, and ever-transformational God will be just fine. We can say our prayers with confidence.

Churches, on the other hand, are in trouble. Many will run out of money. Many will lose heart. And yet some, perhaps many, will rise to the challenge. They will give up the old certainties and do what Jesus did.

Those challenge-meeters will look outward, proclaim good news, welcome strangers, serve “the least of these,” give their lives and resources away, work for justice and mercy, be faith communities seven days a week, and put love ahead of right opinion and kindness ahead of victory.

And God will be in the midst of them.

 

[TGHusker]

I saw this on Facebook and clicked on it due to our discussions on here. I found it interesting. I especially believe the last point.

5 Ways Churches Inflicted Pain on Themselves

5. We trashed our reputation.

We became known as judgmental, angry, self-serving, smug, boring, and old. As far as people outside can tell, we live to fight, we think too highly of ourselves, and we are moral scolds. Who needs that?

What, then, is the future? The future for God is as bright and glorious as ever. Our ever-changing, ever-dynamic, ever-loving, and ever-transformational God will be just fine. We can say our prayers with confidence.

Churches, on the other hand, are in trouble. Many will run out of money. Many will lose heart. And yet some, perhaps many, will rise to the challenge. They will give up the old certainties and do what Jesus did.

Those challenge-meeters will look outward, proclaim good news, welcome strangers, serve “the least of these,” give their lives and resources away, work for justice and mercy, be faith communities seven days a week, and put love ahead of right opinion and kindness ahead of victory.

And God will be in the midst of them.

I thought the rest of the article was good as well and have copied it here:

Let’s be clear: The much-heralded “decline of Christianity in America” isn’t about God losing faith in humankind.



Photo via Robyn Mackenzie / Shutterstock.com

It isn’t about losing our moral compass thanks to whatever you happen to loathe. It isn’t about fickle millennials. It isn’t about zigging trendy or zagging traditional.

In fact, I would argue that Christianity isn’t in trouble at all. Churches are in trouble. Denominations are in trouble. Religious institutions like seminaries are in trouble. Professional church leaders are in trouble.

But churches can’t hold God hostage. God will do what God will do. Whether our churches stay open for business, God will keep on loving all that God has made. Loss of an institution won’t deter God.

So let’s relax about Christianity — the faith — going down the tubes. This isn’t an existential crisis for God or for faith in God. Even if every church in America went dark, God would try another way.

The tragedy — in the classic sense of self-inflicted wounds and fatal flaws — is that we did this to ourselves, and we hurt many people along the way. Here is what we did:

1. We stopped trying.

For a time, religious institutions in America were bold risk-takers. Then we settled into maintenance mode, because it felt safe and comfortable. We fought over churchy things that didn’t matter because the things that did matter — racism, inequality, demagoguery, corporate thievery, obsession with money, and sex — cut too close to home.

2. We stopped giving.

Over the past 50 years, our giving has dropped by more than half as a percentage of family income. We have starved our churches of resources. When tough budget choices had to be made, the facilities that we wanted usually defeated the mission that God wanted.

3. We turned inward.

Just as American houses went from porches in front to patios out back, we stopped connecting with our neighbors. We stopped looking outward, except for the occasional noblesse oblige charity. We opened our doors on Sunday and welcomed each other.

4. We fixated on Sunday morning.

Long after Sunday changed character in American life, we kept expecting Sunday worship to do our work. Rather than transform lives through mission work, circles of growth, and personal spirituality, we had people sit in pews for a crammed hour of singing, praying, announcing, chatting, communing, and learning. Then we sent people out to their cars and figured we had done our work for the week.