gobiggergoredder
All-American
Is anyone ever going get tired of calling out Beck when the team gets beat by fumbles, picks, penalties a qb that is inconsistent and a poor defense?
Beck's playcalling/use of Martinez
- Thread starter JTrain
- Start date
zoogs
Assistant Coach
I think you're exactly right. Those intermediate quick routes we have Taylor doing...you know, I can't say it is really ineffective, as a whole. It keeps Taylor at a good completion %. He gets a lot of his yards this way. But it isn't super-effective, either. It isn't a deadly weapon in our offensive arsenal, so part of me wonders why we do this with regularity.JTrain said:
Screens, playaction bombs, rollouts - these are all pass plays that are also not a big part of the arsenal for various (good) reasons. The playaction bomb is a changeup no matter how you slice it. Taylor's skillset makes screens/rollouts a change-up, and not an every-down bread-and-butter play - both call for well-placed timing throws.
In the case of those other mobile QBs, they absolutely key the running game. Look at Miller, for example - he's a one-man show as a ballcarrier, and I think Klein, Denard, and may others are the same way. Taylor's running, on the other hand, appears to be just like his passing: a change-up, not an every-down. He doesn't run a consistent expert ZR to get us yards, and he doesn't pick his way through traffic. What he does is make a ton of hay on those QB draws or the occasional ZR. Because give him the space and he'll take off.
So, what can we do with this? I don't know. I find this situation - if my overall summary here is correct, which is only my opinion - to be just plain limiting. We end up having little choice but to field a traditional running game with our backs, and then go for the long pass. That isn't enough. We must either 1) diversify the pass attack, or 2) make the running game more dynamic. We seem to attempt to do a little of both but Taylor I think makes it difficult to accomplish either.
If there is an answer here, I think it is to focus on just #2: making the run game more dynamic. Forget about using these simple dropbacks and comebacks and outs and working them into the passing game, just to keep Taylor's completion % up. Instead, devote all resources to leveraging Taylor's gap speed and acceleration to give him open field to work with at all times. Get creative with other facets of the run game, then go playaction.
* We did use the QB draw a few times on 3rd-and-long to pretty good effect, I think. In those situations sometimes you just accept the loss but go for field position. Smart play.
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True2tRA
Banned
We beat ourselves. Taylor had a bad night, but I'm not going to forget the fact that he has done some very good things this year. He is just not gaining any level of comfort in the pocket. He feels pressure and he forces things he does not need to force. He's got to get better at dealing with pressure. The coaches need to scheme in a way the helps Taylor work slowly into the game, establish some rhythm and push towards the deeper throws later on. He does not have a lot of time back there though either. Our offensive line can look good against some weaker opposition, but Wisconsin, UCLA, and Ohio State (the stronger opponents we've played) have all shown the weakness of the offensive line. Beck is only a 2nd year offensive coordinator here at Nebraska. Urban Meyer has been an offensive genius for a long time. Urban clearly owns Beck in the category, I just didn't know Urban owns Bo Pelini so badly as well. It's clear who the better coach is. I say that because I truly believe we have a far more talented team. We've seen all the same mistakes we saw last night. We've seen this same Nebraska team fall apart time and time again. I have no answers, clearly the HEAD COACH has no answers. Sadly, I saw last night coming. I'm getting very used to watching this team become their own worst enemy. As much as we beat ourselves though, Ohio State out coached the Nebraska staff by miles.
JTrain
All-Conference
Hmm. I'm not quite sure where the discussion is going and it seems to have gone off on different tangents, so let's highlight a couple points.
1. I personally don't see screen passes as being as difficult a throw as you. You say they require well-placed timing throws and that it's not really part of Taylor's skill set. I think there are plenty of types of screen plays that are very easy for any QB to learn and throw. I don't see any good reason why we can't have 3-4 basic screens that we practice 100 times a week until Taylor is comfortable with them.
2. Do you agree, given Taylor is our QB, with calling:
- a drop-back pass on 3rd and 10 from our own 31 yard line? Or especially a drop-back pass where Taylor's primary receiver was running a 10-12 yard out route against a very good, proven cornerback with a knack for getting interceptions?
- a drop-back pass on 3rd and 5 from our own 20 yard line? Or especially a drop-back pass where Taylor's primary receiver was running a 10-12 yard dig route against (again) a very good, proven cornerback with a knack for getting interceptions?
I absolutely cringe every time I see Taylor dropping back in situations like these. Beck knows all of Taylor's tendencies and still makes these calls that result in game-changing turnovers. In neither of these situations were we desperate-- the score was 0-0 and 17-14 (Nebraska) respectively. There is no reason to put Taylor in these situations. A QB draw, a quick screen to Rex, or jet sweep to Turner all would have been fine, low-risk calls that still had a chance to break for a first down. If you don't get it, you punt and make them go 70 yards. On the 3rd and 5, we could have run any of our run plays and had a chance to pick it up. Or go play-action and give Taylor a couple short routes to dump it to.
Instead we put Taylor in a position which he's proven time and time again to have an extremely high failure rate in. That first pick in particular was probably the easiest one Roby will have in his college career. It looked like the type of interception you would expect to get against a vastly inferior team like Idaho St.--QB drops back, stares straight at big receiver for three seconds, big receiver makes slow cut, QB throws slightly late, and CB watches the whole process and jumps the ball easily going the other way for a TD.
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HUSKER FREAK
Starter
Yeah this one was not on Beck. I don't agree with all of his playcalling but I guess that's why I am watching and he is coaching. It all comes down to the coaches as a whole finding ways to keep the team from melting down. When things are good they are really good, when things get tough then they look lost confused and well horrible.
JTrain
All-Conference
But we don't need a QB (in the traditional sense) to win the B1G. We need our offensive coordinator to use the strengths of the athlete we have at QB and, more importantly, hide his weaknesses (which are well-documented).
Without those first two interceptions (for which I place 80% of the blame on Beck, for reasons described above), Taylor is 15 of 23 (65%) for 214 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. That isn't bad against a defense like Ohio St.
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Klondike Cat
Three-Star Recruit
That's what was driving me crazy. Has he heard of the pump fake? Pump fake where they think he's going to throw to get the defense to over pursue, then throw it to someone else, if open. If no one's open, run if there's a hole, roll out and throw it away if not.JTrain said:
If we want Beck and Paps to succeed, be prepared to witness the implosion that was last night at least once or twice per year for the foreseeable future. We have issues with recruitment, issues with the basic fundamentals and you throw in two guys at DC and OC who have absolutely no experience at their positions trying to learn on the fly. Their knowledge and experience is good enough to get us wins over teams we should beat and a few more against even matches. No more, no less.
To put it into perspective, since the debacle at CU in 2001 NU is 58-51 vs BCS foes. Folks have hung 40+ on NU 21 times. In those games we are 2-19. We have been mediocre for quite some time. The non-BCS and non-conference have really padded our "wins".
The promoting of folks with no experience has not helped our cause at all. Can Beck and Paps learn, perhaps. Sadly to me, it appears that Beck is Jekyl and Hyde when calling plays. He goes away from what is working. Honestly has no idea what a screen pass is. No idea how to call plays to defeat a team getting pressure and consistently thinks that with our O line and the abilities of Martinez that it is ok to put Martinez in the pocket to progress through reads. Beck doesn't game plan to the strengths of this team, but rather what he thinks will work. Insane. Everyone on this board and the stands knows this, but Beck. That is an issue. No game plan to get the ball to the playmakers in space. Imagine a bubble screen to JT in space or Bel or Enunwa. A designed screen pass to Heard. Imagine last night simply a out and up route. Their D was jumping routes all night.
Since 2010, UT showed how to stop Martinez, put 8 in the box and dare him to throw. We have not gotten DL pressure since SUH left. Again, everyone knows this, but Bo and now Paps. Why we have not tried to put 8 in the box against Miller shocks me. Didn't Bama and MSU show how to stop a mobile QB? Or UCF or the Golden Bears. We really have less talent? I can't believe this. I think less coaching. Paps has intensity, that is great, but he calls plays like Stevie Wonder. Does he even see what we are doing on the field?
Throw in Bo's inability to compromise on his 2 gap. To paraphrase McBride, if you have the horses up front, it is great, if not hold on. SUH was our horse and we haven't had one since. Are the younger guys even playing? Did they play last night? Get them reps now, but Bo seems reluctant. Our team speed is non-existent. Simplify the schemes. Admit your schemes suck and move on to something new. If you don't think our schemes suck see UCLA and OSU this year alone.
Blame talent all you want, but I think in year 5 it is on the staff. Blame the INT's on Martinez. Who recruited him? Who coached him? Who called the plays? same with the D. Who calls the D? Who chooses ot go 2 gap? Who chooses that Martin is not the starter? Who keeps 4 slow DL in instead of trying to get youth and speed or even rushing 4 down DE's. (OSU) has no true "rushing" attack IMO. It is Miller or bust. Who chooses to use complicated schemes os better athletes sit over smarter guys?
No way that Ohio is a better recruitment visit than NU, or Boise or Michicken or Oregon or K State. Give me a break. Same with West Virginia. That BS of we have a hard time recruiting is just BS. Other schools, in worse areas with worse facilities and no history seem to be able to either get better talent or coach it up. I have said before we do not develop or coach up talent and after last night, I stand by that as it relates to the DL and OL and even LB's to date. we are starting 4 seniors on the DL. Where is the developed depth?
Bo is at a cross roads. Put up or shut up time. reach and and get some help. Talk to some guys and get more advice. Look to shake up the staff if needed. Makes guys eran that promotion based on competence not friendship.
I remember this off season Coach B from the Patriots coming down and talking about Reed. I really expected to see us take the advice and use him like NE does Hernandez. That was a dumb thought or ASSumption on my part.
To put it into perspective, since the debacle at CU in 2001 NU is 58-51 vs BCS foes. Folks have hung 40+ on NU 21 times. In those games we are 2-19. We have been mediocre for quite some time. The non-BCS and non-conference have really padded our "wins".
The promoting of folks with no experience has not helped our cause at all. Can Beck and Paps learn, perhaps. Sadly to me, it appears that Beck is Jekyl and Hyde when calling plays. He goes away from what is working. Honestly has no idea what a screen pass is. No idea how to call plays to defeat a team getting pressure and consistently thinks that with our O line and the abilities of Martinez that it is ok to put Martinez in the pocket to progress through reads. Beck doesn't game plan to the strengths of this team, but rather what he thinks will work. Insane. Everyone on this board and the stands knows this, but Beck. That is an issue. No game plan to get the ball to the playmakers in space. Imagine a bubble screen to JT in space or Bel or Enunwa. A designed screen pass to Heard. Imagine last night simply a out and up route. Their D was jumping routes all night.
Since 2010, UT showed how to stop Martinez, put 8 in the box and dare him to throw. We have not gotten DL pressure since SUH left. Again, everyone knows this, but Bo and now Paps. Why we have not tried to put 8 in the box against Miller shocks me. Didn't Bama and MSU show how to stop a mobile QB? Or UCF or the Golden Bears. We really have less talent? I can't believe this. I think less coaching. Paps has intensity, that is great, but he calls plays like Stevie Wonder. Does he even see what we are doing on the field?
Throw in Bo's inability to compromise on his 2 gap. To paraphrase McBride, if you have the horses up front, it is great, if not hold on. SUH was our horse and we haven't had one since. Are the younger guys even playing? Did they play last night? Get them reps now, but Bo seems reluctant. Our team speed is non-existent. Simplify the schemes. Admit your schemes suck and move on to something new. If you don't think our schemes suck see UCLA and OSU this year alone.
Blame talent all you want, but I think in year 5 it is on the staff. Blame the INT's on Martinez. Who recruited him? Who coached him? Who called the plays? same with the D. Who calls the D? Who chooses ot go 2 gap? Who chooses that Martin is not the starter? Who keeps 4 slow DL in instead of trying to get youth and speed or even rushing 4 down DE's. (OSU) has no true "rushing" attack IMO. It is Miller or bust. Who chooses to use complicated schemes os better athletes sit over smarter guys?
No way that Ohio is a better recruitment visit than NU, or Boise or Michicken or Oregon or K State. Give me a break. Same with West Virginia. That BS of we have a hard time recruiting is just BS. Other schools, in worse areas with worse facilities and no history seem to be able to either get better talent or coach it up. I have said before we do not develop or coach up talent and after last night, I stand by that as it relates to the DL and OL and even LB's to date. we are starting 4 seniors on the DL. Where is the developed depth?
Bo is at a cross roads. Put up or shut up time. reach and and get some help. Talk to some guys and get more advice. Look to shake up the staff if needed. Makes guys eran that promotion based on competence not friendship.
I remember this off season Coach B from the Patriots coming down and talking about Reed. I really expected to see us take the advice and use him like NE does Hernandez. That was a dumb thought or ASSumption on my part.
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HUSKER FREAK
Starter
Yeah I agree. His fakes look really bad when he does fake anyway. Beck wanted him to be more patient in the pocket which I agree with to a point, but T-Mart has to know when it is time to run through that wide open hole and when to be patient. He is a great athlete, but he just doesn't seem to have the whits about him to adjust on the fly. I really can't imagine how they are going to change this. Hopefully Armstong and Stanton will be able to take the reins and go in the future until then it may be kind of bumpy.
We need an actual QB if we ever want to win big ball games. I agree that Beck usually has no idea what he is doing, but even if we had a good OC I still would not feel comfortable with Taylor as our QB. It is embarrassing that Taylor is in his 3rd year as a starter and still can't make correct reads. He just isn't fit to be a D1 QB.
zoogs
Assistant Coach
I think where I'm at is that I'm skeptical we'll be able to use any "kind" of throw as our passing game bread-and-butter.
We need to have a diverse running attack, and then use our throwing game to exploit mismatches, go deep, and maybe keep those screens as a changeup.
I agree that drop-back intermediate throw Taylor isn't very effective. Not because it's bad, per se, I think we get a good % out of it this year (by Taylor's second pick he was 12/18 or so..) But we don't really make a lot of hay that way. It isn't a big, defense-gashing threat.
I think the reason we saw Taylor throw some of those routes though, we wanted to go to the air and Ohio State took away the middle of the field. But yes - clearly, asking Taylor to throw a 10-yard out, is just really dangerous. That was a bad throw.
So: in general, I think we cannot rely on any aspect of the passing game as anything more than a changeup. We need to unleash Taylor's running or find other ways to add dimensions running. Specifically against Ohio State, given the extent to which they just shut down our running game, I think we were screwed no matter what.
We need to have a diverse running attack, and then use our throwing game to exploit mismatches, go deep, and maybe keep those screens as a changeup.
I agree that drop-back intermediate throw Taylor isn't very effective. Not because it's bad, per se, I think we get a good % out of it this year (by Taylor's second pick he was 12/18 or so..) But we don't really make a lot of hay that way. It isn't a big, defense-gashing threat.
I think the reason we saw Taylor throw some of those routes though, we wanted to go to the air and Ohio State took away the middle of the field. But yes - clearly, asking Taylor to throw a 10-yard out, is just really dangerous. That was a bad throw.
So: in general, I think we cannot rely on any aspect of the passing game as anything more than a changeup. We need to unleash Taylor's running or find other ways to add dimensions running. Specifically against Ohio State, given the extent to which they just shut down our running game, I think we were screwed no matter what.
I miss the days when we simply lined up and ran. everyone on the other team knew we wee going to, sold out to stop it and couldn't. TO always added a little wrinkle.
Ultimately on O, we still have no identity. With Cally it was some WCO crap, then became a WCO hybrid and then WCO with spread thrown in and last year spread, WCO, with zone read etc, etc, etc.... How do you recruit when we have no idea what the heck we want to be. At this level, it is hard to be a jack of all trades and do anything well. his is college. Not a lot of time to really become skilled at "multiple". We need to identify what we want to be. Currently, IMO, with Martinez the traditional option is out. He does the zone read well with his speed IMO. Get a solid running game with a variety of formations to execute the same plays. Throw in enough passing game to keep them honest and roll. Mix in low risk, high percentage passes like screens and quick outs/hjitches. Go deep tp keep them honest.
We are just too Jekyll and Hyde. No identity, no transfer of system from game to game or even quarter to quarter. I have rarely seen Beck set up one play by running another. It appears that instead of forcing teams to contend with us, we create a different game plan for each team we face, have afew days to implement it and then spend 4 quarters trying to figure it out.
Define a system, recruit specifically for it and learn to execute the base in your sleep, on the road or behind by 21. Instead of shotgun recruiting, this would allow us to go after kids that can immediately contribute. We are not fighting every other school for the same kids. We have a system down so that the new kids can actually learn from the veterans.