Brion Carnes and Bo's Doghouse

Mavric said:
I don't know that I'd say Suh broke the scheme. But I don't know what the calls were on all the plays to know what he should have been doing. It seemed to me like he would usually stand his guy up and read the play which you'd expect if we were running a lot of two-gap then. It's just that once he saw the ball, he could fling the blocker(s) to the side and get to it.

For all the complaining about how passive our DLine has played over the last few years, it would seem pretty obvious that they were doing their part of the scheme which was to eat up blockers so that the LBs could make the plays. David might not have always been doing exactly what he was supposed to be he definitely benefited from a scheme that was designed for him to make plays.
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To be clear, I can't prove Suh broke scheme, any more than I can David did. But neither did things the way other guys did, so it begs the question.

 
Hmm. With Such, I always just thought he was exceptionally dominant. He WAS the scheme, and nobody else could reasonably be asked or counted upon to do what he did.

With David, I thought Bo was just trying to keep him grounded and improving. In his gruff, not entirely my style Bo way.

 
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zoogs said:
Here's the thing. I don't think people really expected Carnes to take over for Taylor, but with Watson being supposedly pretty high on him after 2010, there was some hope that Carnes would continue to be one of those promising developing guys -- in a position like Bush or Darlington find themselves in now. And I think he was, for a Spring.And then he completely disappeared. It's not like we had great QB depth in those years and he was being passed by. Green was falling apart and on his way out, too. We just had QB depth issues, if I recall. Very quickly it became apparent that coaches were not high on him and regarded him as neither present nor future. With plenty of time as well as opportunity to be in the "mix" of competition, it might have been much better simply to make it clear that they believed in their No.2 and were working on improving his game. I don't remember that being the case. He was treated as someone that didn't even deserve to be on the roster (maybe that was true?), and eventually, moved to receiver and then left the roster.Probably the best way to think of it is that he and Green (who also had position switch discussed, right?) were really left behind by the coaching and scheme change. But again maybe that staff simply was not being great with their quarterbacks.
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Very well stated. I'm completely on board with that line of thought.

 
knapplc said:
Mavric said:
I don't know that I'd say Suh broke the scheme. But I don't know what the calls were on all the plays to know what he should have been doing. It seemed to me like he would usually stand his guy up and read the play which you'd expect if we were running a lot of two-gap then. It's just that once he saw the ball, he could fling the blocker(s) to the side and get to it. For all the complaining about how passive our DLine has played over the last few years, it would seem pretty obvious that they were doing their part of the scheme which was to eat up blockers so that the LBs could make the plays. David might not have always been doing exactly what he was supposed to be he definitely benefited from a scheme that was designed for him to make plays.
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To be clear, I can't prove Suh broke scheme, any more than I can David did. But neither did things the way other guys did, so it begs the question.
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That's the issue. It's why can't even have any interest in going back through the rosters in previous years and finding all the guys I thought should have played. The same reason we can't prove David and Suh were playing outside the scheme at times.
Anybody can counter the argument with the fact that we dont truly know anything. Which is right, we can't.

We can only watch the games and come to our own conclusions.

Suh and David played outside the scheme constantly, in my opinion. I only believe this because I've watched plenty of other guys play within the sheme and there didn't seem to be the "see ball, get ball" mentality that those two had at times.

I also don't believe the best players played. Bo pretty much said this himself regarding almost an entire season at one time. Was it 2011 or 2012 he said there were younger guys on the roster that "should have played". When you see some of those guys finally get time on the field, you realize hell yes they should have played, they should have started.

 
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teachercd said:
I gotta admit that I love when stories like this come out after a coach is canned.
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How many stories like this are we going to see when you get canned?
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We always heard Bo himself say playing within the scheme matters, leading to the conclusion that only players who do this see PT, and those who don't... don't. But, we then saw guys like Suh and David on the field, however, they seemed to make other-worldly plays that put everyone else to shame.

So, were they playing within the scheme and doing it better than anyone else, or did they break scheme using their natural ability to make great plays?

My conclusion is we had two players who were just extremely talented with natural instincts that outweighed schematics. It's no coincidence the most "talented" Bo Pelini defenses were also his best - the '09 and '10 defenses - defenses that sent the most players to the NFL. It took a once in a generation player to make Bo's defense dominant, which leads me to believe his scheme relied upon talent we couldn't consistently get at Nebraska. Or, more worrisome, we just couldn't develop players well. Maybe a mix of both.

I remember Bo criticizing David's play - saying he missed on assignments after some games. But, it wasn't another player who stuffed Penn State on 4th down - it was David. It wasn't another player who stuffed KSU on an important conversion on that Thursday night game - it was David. It wasn't another player who single-handily embarrassed Texas - it was Suh.

I think David and Suh were just so talented they probably would've done well in any number of schemes.

 
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True2tRA said:
That's the issue. It's why can't even have any interest in going back through the rosters in previous years and finding all the guys I thought should have played.
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I'm not asking you to go back through all the rosters and list them all. I'd just like a few examples. So far we have a guy who started every game he was here. That doesn't fit the description of a guy who didn't get his chance. And we have a couple vague references to guys who played played last year but that says nothing about the guys behind them being better.

If it happened so often over the last seven years, it shouldn't be that hard to list a few examples off the top of your head.

 
True2tRA said:
Suh and David played outside the scheme constantly, in my opinion. I only believe this because I've watched plenty of other guys play within the sheme and there didn't seem to be the "see ball, get ball" mentality that those two had at times.
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Probably should add Ruud and Bullocks to your list also, since they put up outstanding defensive numbers under Pelini.

 
True2tRA said:
knapplc said:
Mavric said:
I don't know that I'd say Suh broke the scheme. But I don't know what the calls were on all the plays to know what he should have been doing. It seemed to me like he would usually stand his guy up and read the play which you'd expect if we were running a lot of two-gap then. It's just that once he saw the ball, he could fling the blocker(s) to the side and get to it. For all the complaining about how passive our DLine has played over the last few years, it would seem pretty obvious that they were doing their part of the scheme which was to eat up blockers so that the LBs could make the plays. David might not have always been doing exactly what he was supposed to be he definitely benefited from a scheme that was designed for him to make plays.
Click to expand...
To be clear, I can't prove Suh broke scheme, any more than I can David did. But neither did things the way other guys did, so it begs the question.
Click to expand...
That's the issue. It's why can't even have any interest in going back through the rosters in previous years and finding all the guys I thought should have played. The same reason we can't prove David and Suh were playing outside the scheme at times.
Anybody can counter the argument with the fact that we dont truly know anything. Which is right, we can't.

We can only watch the games and come to our own conclusions.

Suh and David played outside the scheme constantly, in my opinion. I only believe this because I've watched plenty of other guys play within the sheme and there didn't seem to be the "see ball, get ball" mentality that those two had at times.

I also don't believe the best players played. Bo pretty much said this himself regarding almost an entire season at one time. Was it 2011 or 2012 he said there were younger guys on the roster that "should have played". When you see some of those guys finally get time on the field, you realize hell yes they should have played, they should have started.
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That was 2012 when they had to move Meredith to DT at the end of the year because of injuries. IIRC he stated this in hindsight because Valentine Redshirted that year, and by the end of the year the team could have used him on the field. Valentine wasn't one of the best DTs that year.

 
Pensick easily could've/should've started over Caputo.

Eric Martin was too good to not get on the field.

Lavonte David.

Choi could've played over Rodriguez at guard.

Harvey Jackson over P.j. Smith

Vince Valentine should've gotten on the field instead of moving Meredith all over

Zaire Anderson neglected, misused and underused his entire career here

D'Mornay Pierson El- took these coaches half a season to see this guys talent? Even when he got onto the field they didn't use him enough in the offense

Ryne Reeves easily should've stared over Mark Pelini

Jake Cotton should not have been starting at Guard

Courtney Love should have gotten on the field

There's more those are just some easy ones to recall off the bat. This is where you tell me how wrong I am and there' no way of knowing this or how this is all hindsight ...........

Lke I said, I don't think the best players always played. There were some talented guys who got neglected by that staff. Maybe there were reasons, like I said, we couldn't possibly know and I don't claim to know the backstory on all these guys. So this is simply MY OPINION of guys that would have been starting or at least been utilized much more if I was the Head Coach. Some of them seem really obvious and others are purely based on how I evaluated the player.

 
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Not to mention guys like Heard and Cross proving it on the field, then promptly being shown the bench.

 
The Dude said:
Not to mention guys like Heard and Cross proving it on the field, then promptly being shown the bench.
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Cross is under a new coaching staff- let's see how they view him

I thought the same thing about Heard- but Im not at practice and my jobs not on the line if the team loses

 
True2tRA said:
Pensick easily could've/should've started over Caputo.

Eric Martin was too good to not get on the field.

Lavonte David.

Choi could've played over Rodriguez at guard.

Harvey Jackson over P.j. Smith

Vince Valentine should've gotten on the field instead of moving Meredith all over

Zaire Anderson neglected, misused and underused his entire career here

D'Mornay Pierson El- took these coaches half a season to see this guys talent? Even when he got onto the field they didn't use him enough in the offense

Ryne Reeves easily should've stared over Mark Pelini

Jake Cotton should not have been starting at Guard

Courtney Love should have gotten on the field

There's more those are just some easy ones to recall off the bat. This is where you tell me how wrong I am and there' no way of knowing this or how this is all hindsight ...........

Lke I said, I don't think the best players always played. There were some talented guys who got neglected by that staff. Maybe there were reasons, like I said, we couldn't possibly know and I don't claim to know the backstory on all these guys. So this is simply MY OPINION of guys that would have been starting or at least been utilized much more if I was the Head Coach. Some of them seem really obvious and others are purely based on how I evaluated the player.
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Love was treated pretty poorly by Els, not surprising he straight up left. Also heard players not on 2 deep were limited to lifting during the week. Don't know how that makes sense to prevent kids from working out. I barely understood people's gripes about S&C program, not a lot of substance other than just basic complaining about injuries, until I was told examples by some connected to program.

 
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