Cav Has Choices on the OLine

[Mavric]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

 

[Decked]

I realize there isn't anything comparable to a game..However, that must means our practices for the OL must be incredibly tough or you'd at least hope to simulate that atmosphere?

 

[BigRedBuster]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

I didn't say you needed to be up by 30. I said it's easier to do it if you're up by 30.

 

[C N Red]

All i know is he better settle on 5 immediately after spring ball and practice and play only those 5 as much as possible. Competition could really hurt this team.

 

[Mavric]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

I didn't say you needed to be up by 30. I said it's easier to do it if you're up by 30.

Yes, I know. Make an argument without actually making an argument. That way you can argue against someone without them being able to argue back.

Point is it's not that it can't be done. It's that it hasn't been done.

 

[NUinID]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

 

[Mavric]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

So we pretty much agree on everything. Good.

 

[NUinID]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

So we pretty much agree on everything. Good.

I guess

 

[BigRedBuster]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

So we pretty much agree on everything. Good.

I guess

So, I'm confused. So...everyone is agreeing with a lot of what Cav is doing as far as substitution?

 

[Mavric]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

So we pretty much agree on everything. Good.

I guess

So, I'm confused. So...everyone is agreeing with a lot of what Cav is doing as far as substitution?

I have more of an issue with the reasoning/philosophy than the actual playing time. I don't think we're doing enough to get the next guys ready. That's my impression anyway.

 

[Mierin]

Year 4 is prove it year but we can't suck in year 3.

 

[NUinID]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

So we pretty much agree on everything. Good.

I guess

So, I'm confused. So...everyone is agreeing with a lot of what Cav is doing as far as substitution?

I don't think Cav is doing anything completely different than what Milt would do in the same situation. MT didn't walk into a mess when he became an O-Line coach at Nebraska. He took over for long time assistant Jim Ross and worked with Clete Fisher for years before he bacame the lead dog in the system. Clete Fisher retired and Dan Young took his place. Milt came into a well oiled machine and kept it working and improve it. He wasn't trying to build a competent starting O-line and build depth at the same time.

that is the big difference.

 

[thatguy]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

So we pretty much agree on everything. Good.

I guess

So, I'm confused. So...everyone is agreeing with a lot of what Cav is doing as far as substitution?

i think everyone is agreeing that there have to be guys that can step in and substitute without a significant dropoff in unit performance and cohesion. everyone i think is on board that we shouldn't be hearing anymore that there isn't anyone capable of subbing for an underperforming lineman. people have differing thoughts on how you accomplish that, however.

 

[thatguy]

While the line is young, it was Cav's choice to redshirt those freshmen linemen in 2016. If Cav is going to use inexperience as an excuse, it's his own fault for not getting guys experience in 2016.

This. In talking about the other three guys listed that needed experience I look at the second half of the OSU game as a huge example of bad management. Cav kept his starting five in for the whole thing. Decker, Barnett and Gaylord should have been inserted there. Going against OSU's twos and threes would have been far more of learning experience than mop up non conference snaps.
I've been an advocate for rotating guys up front. At least you'll find out pretty fast with what ya got.

Milt Tenopir never had a rotation for his linemen and we did pretty welll under his tutelage. I'm not saying Milt never substituted linemen, I'm just saying he never had a set rotation. So I don't think rotating the offensive linemen is a huge deal personally.

i think some people quite often confuse substitution and in-game development with "set rotation". the idea is not necessarily to have every lineman play every other series, or some other predetermined schedule. The concept here is that if you are serious about having competent backup linemen, you MUST find meaningful snaps for your backup linemen in both games that matter and games that are less important in the grand scheme of things. doesn't have to be a predetermined order. it can be a "feel" type of thing, based on how the game is going (not just blowouts). some games they might play more snaps than other games. but to have it set in stone that you just don't rotate linemen in, unless the starters' legs are broken or something similar is pretty silly.

that decker and barnett could not spell hobbled starters for any number of snaps at all should tell you something is wrong.

That's easy to do if you are up by 30. We haven't had that luxury. Not sure what the issue was with Decker. But, the issues with Barnett are pretty well known and it's not a problem with the coaching staff.

I'm not at all convinced that there is such a dropoff that you'd have to be up by 30 to play them. I don't see why you can't have 2-3 backups that get one series each per half. Give them a chance to get in there but still play the starters the vast majority of the time.

But I'm not even so worried about the games. Speculation on my part but from the way Cav talks about it - and reading nothing to the contrary from practice reports - it's always just the starting group together in practice. I definitely think you need to be working some other guys in there. If Cav's big deal is "chemistry" then what happens when you're forced to play a backup due to injury or whatever? Now you have zero chemistry with that guy because you never gave him a chance. And it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to go through the entire season with only five guys. We've proved that for years.

Look, I do know a little about FB, coach at the A level for 15 years. You practice your O-line as a unit, First team, second team, etc. If you truly have someone that is close yeah our throw them in the mix. That is true when Milt was the coach or Cav was the coach. When some one is hurt you move the next guy up. Milt always wanted a swing guard and tackle if he had someone that was that good, but it doesn't always happen that way. When you are up 31-0 against Iowa St. with 6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter, yeah it is great to see the #2 unit in the game. That is what we all remember, and that is what happened. You didn't see that against Miami or FSU in a close game.

When I coach HS the only ST unit any O-linemen were on was PAT/FG and that was practiced 1 day a week thursday for about 15 minutes. Otherwise we spend a good half hour on the other ST every practice. ST practice time was extra unit time for them. That is how important we thought it was for the O-line to function as a unit.

I definitely think Cav could work a little harder to get some backups playing time. But, I don't think he is way off base the way he runs the O-line.

again, no one is saying to sub in the entire 2nd unit in the second quarter of a close game or whatever. that would be silly. but what milt did in any of those games you mentioned was having one swing guy sub in at different points during the game, no matter who the opponent was. it obviously decreased against bowl opponents and the like, but lets not change the goalposts here. we are definitely in agreement that he should work some backups in at different stages.