Coaching or Talent - which is more responsible

[74Hunter]

Riley can listen to people telling him to run, but no amount of listening is going to make this O Line a throwback to The Pipeline of legend. We can't just impose our will on the defense with this line.

Then it might be too early to throw the word "upgrade" around broadly on all the assistant coaches......in this case Cavanaugh.

Yeah, because our O line imposed it's will for the last 7 years so this year shouldn't be any different. Amirite? Nary a f#cking word about the previous staff not having an OL worth a sh#t for 7 years but now all of a sudden 3 games into a new regime it's just a coaching problem. Seems legit.

Our running was productive under Pelini.

Kind of tough to establish the run when you start off 3 scores down and your O line couldn't push a Volkswagen beetle downhill.

I do agree though that this staff may not be as committed to establishing the run and that is concerning. Plus, I really don't care for the type of running they seem to like. Already tired of that jet sweep look. That might work if you've got faster guys than the other team. So far that hasn't been the case. Seems like an awfully remedial rushing playbook for a place like Nebraska.

The run was available all game if the staff would have committed to it. If they would have, we may not have been down 3 scores in the 1st quarter.

I honestly want to like what I see out of this offense, but it looks too much like 04 to 07.

 

[74Hunter]

Let me first say, there are some coaches that I am extremely skeptical of. To this day, I still do not like the hires of Banker, Stewart, Hughes and Read. And the results so far do not make me change my mind in any way. It only reinforces my original thoughts.

With that said - the larger problems on this team are absolutely talent related. Bo got a full cupboard when he came in here. He got Amukamara, Suh, Dennard, Helu, Henery, Asante, Crick, Hagg, etc,. Riley got into the kitchen and the cupboards had been ripped off the wall. Recruiting at certain positions have been grossly overlooked, which has allowed the depth to be non-existent. Evaluations of certain recruits have been horribly missed. And not forcing players to move on who are obviously not panning out has been a horrible mistake.

I value your word more than most, and I mostly agree with you.

But Dennard was a Bo recruit. So were Ameer, Gregory, David, Gomes, TMart, Armstrong, Rex.....

Recruiting wasn't great under Bo, but I don't think we have some huge cavernous hole and empty cupboards as you say.

And this staff hasn't upgraded recruiting over what the previous staff had done, even though their effort and innovation have been there.

 

[Danny Bateman]

Riley can listen to people telling him to run, but no amount of listening is going to make this O Line a throwback to The Pipeline of legend. We can't just impose our will on the defense with this line.

Then it might be too early to throw the word "upgrade" around broadly on all the assistant coaches......in this case Cavanaugh.

Yeah, because our O line imposed it's will for the last 7 years so this year shouldn't be any different. Amirite? Nary a f#cking word about the previous staff not having an OL worth a sh#t for 7 years but now all of a sudden 3 games into a new regime it's just a coaching problem. Seems legit.

Our running was productive under Pelini.

Kind of tough to establish the run when you start off 3 scores down and your O line couldn't push a Volkswagen beetle downhill.

I do agree though that this staff may not be as committed to establishing the run and that is concerning. Plus, I really don't care for the type of running they seem to like. Already tired of that jet sweep look. That might work if you've got faster guys than the other team. So far that hasn't been the case. Seems like an awfully remedial rushing playbook for a place like Nebraska.

The run was available all game if the staff would have committed to it. If they would have, we may not have been down 3 scores in the 1st quarter.

I honestly want to like what I see out of this offense, but it looks too much like 04 to 07.

Let me first say, there are some coaches that I am extremely skeptical of. To this day, I still do not like the hires of Banker, Stewart, Hughes and Read. And the results so far do not make me change my mind in any way. It only reinforces my original thoughts.

With that said - the larger problems on this team are absolutely talent related. Bo got a full cupboard when he came in here. He got Amukamara, Suh, Dennard, Helu, Henery, Asante, Crick, Hagg, etc,. Riley got into the kitchen and the cupboards had been ripped off the wall. Recruiting at certain positions have been grossly overlooked, which has allowed the depth to be non-existent. Evaluations of certain recruits have been horribly missed. And not forcing players to move on who are obviously not panning out has been a horrible mistake.

I value your word more than most, and I mostly agree with you.

But Dennard was a Bo recruit. So were Ameer, Gregory, David, Gomes, TMart, Armstrong, Rex.....

Recruiting wasn't great under Bo, but I don't think we have some huge cavernous hole and empty cupboards as you say.

And this staff hasn't upgraded recruiting over what the previous staff had done, even though their effort and innovation have been there.

The run was available because of what they were accomplishing in the passing game. If we try to lineup and run over Miami, they probably stonewall us. Given what Riley saw against the first two opponents, I'd say he thought the same thing and decided we'd be best off trying to make some plays in the passing game.
Of those recruits you listed by Bo, which do we still have left? One. Bo nailed certain recruits, while whiffing on others, sometimes whole positions, quite badly. He never developed a good OL during his entire tenure here, and now we're paying for it. The lack of depth at DL and LB is also apparent. We're starting a freshman LB, and our DL was DOA today.

Also, It's a little premature to judge Riley's effect on recruiting.

 

[74Hunter]

Riley can listen to people telling him to run, but no amount of listening is going to make this O Line a throwback to The Pipeline of legend. We can't just impose our will on the defense with this line.

Then it might be too early to throw the word "upgrade" around broadly on all the assistant coaches......in this case Cavanaugh.

Yeah, because our O line imposed it's will for the last 7 years so this year shouldn't be any different. Amirite? Nary a f#cking word about the previous staff not having an OL worth a sh#t for 7 years but now all of a sudden 3 games into a new regime it's just a coaching problem. Seems legit.

Our running was productive under Pelini.

Kind of tough to establish the run when you start off 3 scores down and your O line couldn't push a Volkswagen beetle downhill.

I do agree though that this staff may not be as committed to establishing the run and that is concerning. Plus, I really don't care for the type of running they seem to like. Already tired of that jet sweep look. That might work if you've got faster guys than the other team. So far that hasn't been the case. Seems like an awfully remedial rushing playbook for a place like Nebraska.

The run was available all game if the staff would have committed to it. If they would have, we may not have been down 3 scores in the 1st quarter.

I honestly want to like what I see out of this offense, but it looks too much like 04 to 07.

Let me first say, there are some coaches that I am extremely skeptical of. To this day, I still do not like the hires of Banker, Stewart, Hughes and Read. And the results so far do not make me change my mind in any way. It only reinforces my original thoughts.

With that said - the larger problems on this team are absolutely talent related. Bo got a full cupboard when he came in here. He got Amukamara, Suh, Dennard, Helu, Henery, Asante, Crick, Hagg, etc,. Riley got into the kitchen and the cupboards had been ripped off the wall. Recruiting at certain positions have been grossly overlooked, which has allowed the depth to be non-existent. Evaluations of certain recruits have been horribly missed. And not forcing players to move on who are obviously not panning out has been a horrible mistake.

I value your word more than most, and I mostly agree with you.

But Dennard was a Bo recruit. So were Ameer, Gregory, David, Gomes, TMart, Armstrong, Rex.....

Recruiting wasn't great under Bo, but I don't think we have some huge cavernous hole and empty cupboards as you say.

And this staff hasn't upgraded recruiting over what the previous staff had done, even though their effort and innovation have been there.

The run was available because of what they were accomplishing in the passing game. If we try to lineup and run over Miami, they probably stonewall us. Given what Riley saw against the first two opponents, I'd say he thought the same thing and decided we'd be best off trying to make some plays in the passing game.Of those recruits you listed by Bo, which do we still have left? One. Bo nailed certain recruits, while whiffing on others, sometimes whole positions, quite badly. He never developed a good OL during his entire tenure here, and now we're paying for it. The lack of depth at DL and LB is also apparent. We're starting a freshman LB, and our DL was DOA today.

Also, It's a little premature to judge Riley's effect on recruiting.

I disagree about the run/pass. If the coaches would have dedicated to the run, it would have been there. It was all game. Regardless of what we've been fed, this staff believes in pass first. Always has.

I agree on the recruiting, but out of last year's class and next year's, the previous staff secured most of the more highly rated players.

Let's be honest, the OL play hasn't been all that good since 2001.

 

[Elf]

Both.

Coaching...pass D is a joke. I'm a give em a chance guy typically but I've already tipped into the Banker is probably a failure camp.

Players...wr too thin, rb no stud so far, DE OMG, CB OMG, injuries and suspensions hurt badly most positions from day one.

QB...Tommy really needs to be COACHED OVER AND OVER to clean up his terrible pocket decisions (primarily waiting too long then turning and running backwards to 15 yards behind the los until the usual bad result occurs).

I disagree about Tommy. Tommy has been the least of our problems today. He's made mistakes, but he's also been one of the few bright spots throughout the game. It's pretty apparent that the scheme coming into this game was fundamentally flawed.

Agreed about the defensive coaching; awful from start to finish. Banker has a very limited competence, obviously.

You obviously don't know what you are looking at when it comes to defensive coaching. If you want to question Davies starting and being put on an island, that is fine. But the adjustments after that were something that we never saw under Little Bo Bleep and if you couldn't tell how much more speed Miami had than NU did, then there is no help for you.

I noticed that and the announcers mentioned it at least once as well.

We won national championships when Osborne and Team started recruiting speed guys. We obviously need to be recruiting speed, and guys who can hold onto the ball.

 

[Stumpy1]

We are lacking talent at WR and Oline on the offensive side of the ball and in the secondary and DL on defense. Our LB corps is short on bodies and the coaches addressed it when they got hired and are trying to right that ship.

As for establishing the run. You can only bang your head against the wall for so long before you break through or get a really bad headache. Which one do think will come first after you have tried it a few times?

 

[TheSker]

As for establishing the run. You can only bang your head against the wall for so long before you break through or get a really bad headache. Which one do think will come first after you have tried it a few times?

First series against Miami.......5 yard run, incomplete, incomplete, punt.

 

[Stumpy1]

As for establishing the run. You can only bang your head against the wall for so long before you break through or get a really bad headache. Which one do think will come first after you have tried it a few times?

First series against Miami.......5 yard run, incomplete, incomplete, punt.

Your point is?

 

[Tomhusker64]

Bofe

 

[suh_fan93]

Both.

 

[grandpasknee]

We need a legit DC, something we haven't had in a while.

Ironically, Pelini was the last "legit" DC we've had

So, "legit" = 70 points and / or NCAA rushing records against us? So I'm guessing your answer to the original question would be "talent".

 

[girlknowsfootball]

With all do respect. You can coach scheme, proper technique, what to do if someone does this, etc. all day long. But if your guy is a 240lb 4.7lb and he's covering a 4.3 WR he's going to get beat. And if you adjust your scheme to double team that star WR or if you play a dime defense to match up better with speed, and your corners are 4.5 on a 4.3 guy, the player can only do so much with coaching. What we are seeing this season is the result of Bo's lack of recruiting his final 2 years at Nebraska. Those final 2 years he heard all the talk about the fans questioning him. He knew he was on the hotspot. He was distracted and unorganized. Recruiting suffered. Miami had more speed than we did and we simply couldn't match up on defense. We have no 4.6-4.7 pass rushing end on the team who can beat blockers and get pressure on the QB. People say, we'll take the shirt off of Alex davis. You can't do that. He's played one year of football in his life. You think he miraculously has the football IQ to get out there and not make mental mistakes? You think he has the moves to beat these olinemen we see who have started 20-30 games? It gives the QB all day to check down to his 2nd and 3rd options. The DB's can't make breaks on the ball to go for the INT or pass breakup because they have no help from the d-line.

On offense dropped passes and penalties aren't coaching in our case either. Coach williams has had success everywhere he has gone. His WR's have never had this problem. The truth is that Miami defense was mean, and many of them saw those hits coming and braced for them before they had completely secured the ball. Westekamp is a great talent for us. But who do we have that was a highly recruited player out of high school that has that crazy ability? We don't. We don't have the 6'5" guy that can go over the top. We don't have the burner like Bell was. And at RB... Watch Newby. He doesn't make decisions quick enough. It takes him too long to hit the hole and he dances horizontally too much. Wilbon is a much better back at taking on the contact and hitting the spot quick, but he doesn't play because he can't pass protect. Cross is out big up the middle guy but he has no top end speed and can't break away unless it's an FCS team or the bottom of the big 10. We don't have Ameer, we don't have Rex, and we don't have Helu. We have some guys that haven't developed to what their star status said they would be. We have some undersized guys. We have ozigbo who is cross 2.0 does a lot of things fundamentally well but doesn't have the speed to break out. And we can look at the o line. We aren't starting most those guys because they are all Americans. We're starting them because we don't have any all Americans. We've missed on developing some guys. We've lost some guys to transfers because cotton played favorites. We've lost some tackles and we just haven't had the foot speed or talent to get us the guys we need. Plus you can coach all day long but some guys have a premadonna attitude and don't listen, or they appear to listen but then do what they want in games. What do you do in that situation as a coach if the backup doesn't have the athletic ability to hold his own in the game? You have to play the athletic guy and give him an earful hoping he responds. There's only so much coaching can do.

 

[gobiggergoredder]

I get a kick out of the perfectly coached game. Whether it is Shawn Watson, Tim Beck or Mike Riley.

I very rarely watch and Alabama game without saying 1-2 times, "Why the hell did they do that?"....Just saying.

We don't have the speed.

 

[HuskerfaninOkieland]

We need a legit DC, something we haven't had in a while.

Ironically, Pelini was the last "legit" DC we've had

So, "legit" = 70 points and / or NCAA rushing records against us? So I'm guessing your answer to the original question would be "talent".

No. "Legit" is when he was the DC for LSU and Neb (2003) and his defenses were almost impenetrable.

 

[84HuskerLaw]

I wrote a lengthy case in the what did we learn Miami discussion on page 2 I believe today. I think it does take both great talent and great coaching to produce great teams. You have good talent and great coaching, you may get some great results but won't have a great team. You take great talent and good coaching and you will get great results more often than not. But the one thing for certain is that great coaches and poor talent won't ever produce a great or even good team. You may get some upsets now then but those will be exceptions and not the rule. That, arguably, may have been the lot of Mike Riley at Oregon State.

Talent this year at Nebraska? Good enough to win the west division championship? Perhaps, with a lot of luck and almost zero injuries to starters and key backups in October and November. Could we upset Ohio State? Our chances are about 1 in 12 tries, perhaps. I rate our present overall talent level on this team at about 40th in the country. We are improving and learning fast this season. Can it be top 30 by year end? Yes, certainly.

Coaching? Good enough to win the west division champsionship frequently? Yes. Win a conference title once every 4 years? Yes. National title contender? Unknown but possibly. I give Riley high marks based on the very preliminary experience we have thus far. He knows what is going on and is working hard to teach the players the skills they need to play football better. Does Riley have top ten talent? As stated above - clearly NO! Are we capable of playing top 20 football this year? I say it is conceivable we will for parts of some games and part of the season but consistently ? Not likely.

We need to upgrade our talent level more than coaching in my opinion. But it is understandable that we need much more evidence before we come to a decision on the coaching. We know Oregon State did NOT have great talent but did have a few good players now and then. They had more success in the talented years I believe. That tells me that Riley and Company can coach IF they have the players with ability to play at a higher level. Time will tell but I lean toward the talent deficiency at this point.