Education

I think we as a country have education all wrong, as well as how we treat and prepare our children to enter the workforce and the public as a whole. 

  • We're constantly pushing for kids to go to college that may not want or need it. Trade schools and trade professions (e.g. HVAC technicians, electrical engineers, auto mechanics) are suffering a severe lack of qualified workers and laborers as a result. 
  • Our schools have been fervently focusing on standardized testing output at the expense of making sure kids have the life skills necessary to function in society.  This includes (but isn't restricted to):


    Basic life skills in Home Economics classes (e.g. cooking, sewing, balancing a checkbook, how credit works, how investing works)
  • Classes that focus on critical thought processes (e.g. Speech/Debate, Alternative Literature/History classes, Citizenship)
  • Technology usage and knowledge (e.g. how to work on a PC, how networking works, how programming works)



I'd suggest that we overhaul our K-12 to help alleviate this by doing the following:

  • Remove any ties between school funding and results of standardized testing at the Federal and State levels. 
  • Refocus attention on making sure kids have a well-rounded education by their 10th year (16 years of age)
  • Allow kids to graduate by their 10th year, and then track into one of the following for their 11th and 12th years:


    College Prep Courses (e.g. advanced mathematics, English/composition, history, advanced science)
  • Trade Courses (e.g. Auto Shop, Woodworking, HVAC and/or Electrical Engineering apprenticeships)


    These don't have to be at the high school if the community can't float them...but I'd like to see funding for schools that do



[*]Kids are of the age of majority at 16, and enjoy all rights and privileges that entails, including


  • Voting
  • Buying and consuming of alcohol/tobacco/marijuana (yeah, I'd legalize it)
  • Living on their own

[*]Kids that continue going to school after 16 and until 24 continue to receive benefits, including:


  • Insurance coverage under parents
  • Ability for parents to assume liability in certain situations for kids still getting an education 

[*]Trade Schools are treated like colleges/Universities


  • With stricter accreditation and oversight
  • Entrance examinations and applications (based on work done in 11-12 grades)
  • A standardized tiered trade degree convention



Now some of this already exists (e.g. someone can go get an Associate's Degree in Electrical Engineering), but a lot of it doesn't, and I know I'm painting with a broad brush here. I'm just trying to say we need to fundamentally rethink education and how it prepares our children. That, and we need to kill the focus on standardized testing and funding to schools before it kills education as a whole (history shows this precedent is exceptionally bad--see China and the Han Dynasty Imperial/Civil Service exams, and how education, the arts, and eventually society suffered as a result). 

Anyway, just a thought. 

 
sho said:
Do we start paying athletes then?  :D   Sorry for the tangent comment.

The more I think about it, I'm not sure free is the way to go.  I'd like to go back to something like this:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/aug/08/facebook-posts/1978-someone-minimum-wage-could-earn-enough-summer/

You could work the summer only and afford to go to school debt free (minus books/tuition) you could then scale down during the school year to part time to hours and afford books/tuition and graduate debt free.   And of course if you go out of state, it would be a jump in tuition.

This way, a student still has some skin in the game, as has been brought up, would still have to academically qualify, etc etc.   It would still place value on the degree and not burden society as a whole.    Using 1978 percentages, that would mean, in today's world the average cost per year for tuition and fees for in-state residents attending a 4-year university would be just shy of $1,850.   I would love to figure out a way to get close to that...maybe $5000 yr
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Students in the 1970s didn't care if they lived in a small box of a room and didn't have many options for food. The whole student body didn't demand a fast internet connection and wireless that covers every single space on campus so they can stream Netflix at 11pm at night all at the same time. These are two areas of many on a college campus that might not seem like much but it adds to the overall expense of college. Should higher education overall cost be lower? Yes. However, if people want lower cost education, our expectations on "extra" things that colleges offer should be lower. That is a hard thing to do in a competitive environment.

 
jaws said:
Students in the 1970s didn't care if they lived in a small box of a room and didn't have many options for food. The whole student body didn't demand a fast internet connection and wireless that covers every single space on campus so they can stream Netflix at 11pm at night all at the same time. These are two areas of many on a college campus that might not seem like much but it adds to the overall expense of college. Should higher education overall cost be lower? Yes. However, if people want lower cost education, our expectations on "extra" things that colleges offer should be lower. That is a hard thing to do in a competitive environment.
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You do hit on an important topic.  Technology is a major part of education right now....and a very important one.  Our students should be working with the latest and greatest.  That all takes more money and infrastructure than when I was in college.  That same wifi that you mention, is used for students to actually do their studies.

 
funhusker said:
https://www.nsea.org/sites/default/files/content_images/Collective_Bargaining/18PAGEall.pdf

Education is along the top and experience down the left.  Look at the figures to the bottom/right on the chart.  This is "max' salary and doesn't include clubs.  I am a head 7th grade football coach and assistant MS wrestling and make about $3600 off of those two 8 week sports; and I'm nowhere near the lower right of the chart yet :)
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Thanks--we weren't looking at this comprehensive list, we were going off individual ISD salary schedules. 

Only problem is that with the Master's pay is that the juice isn't worth the squeeze--you'll likely come out even (at best) after getting your Master's and receiving that bump in pay. 

 
VectorVictor said:
Thanks--we weren't looking at this comprehensive list, we were going off individual ISD salary schedules. 

Only problem is that with the Master's pay is that the juice isn't worth the squeeze--you'll likely come out even (at best) after getting your Master's and receiving that bump in pay. 
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I disagree with this.  The bump in pay will pay for the Masters in 2 years.  Plus it keeps you from "bottoming out" on the schedule.  If your wife is a young public school teacher in NE, she needs to get her Masters sooner than later.

 
One thing I wish was a requirement in high school is more comprehensive education on taxes. That is one thing I feel I was taught very little practical knowledge yet has an enormous impact on everyones lives. 

 
BigRedBuster said:
You do hit on an important topic.  Technology is a major part of education right now....and a very important one.  Our students should be working with the latest and greatest.  That all takes more money and infrastructure than when I was in college.  That same wifi that you mention, is used for students to actually do their studies.
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I disagree. We don't need the latest and greatest for everything in education. There is so much waste in primary, secondary and higher education when it comes to technology. For instance, a raspberry pi can be used to teach computer science at all grade levels. You can also use services like code.org to teach basics on a Chromebook. You don't need the latest MacBook Pro to do this kind of stuff when a $35 computer will do. 

As for the infrastructure, when I graduated college in 2003 we had a handful of cheap wireless access points on campus. A college now can spend over 250k in just wireless costs. Students now a days can have 2 or 3 devices each in a classroom or 4 or 5 devices in their dorm room, and that costs a lot of money to provide wireless coverage. That doesn't even include the backend network infrastructure. And yes, students use Wifi for school work, but that is such a small percentage of overall network utilization. 

 
jaws said:
I disagree. We don't need the latest and greatest for everything in education. There is so much waste in primary, secondary and higher education when it comes to technology. For instance, a raspberry pi can be used to teach computer science at all grade levels. You can also use services like code.org to teach basics on a Chromebook. You don't need the latest MacBook Pro to do this kind of stuff when a $35 computer will do. 

As for the infrastructure, when I graduated college in 2003 we had a handful of cheap wireless access points on campus. A college now can spend over 250k in just wireless costs. Students now a days can have 2 or 3 devices each in a classroom or 4 or 5 devices in their dorm room, and that costs a lot of money to provide wireless coverage. That doesn't even include the backend network infrastructure. And yes, students use Wifi for school work, but that is such a small percentage of overall network utilization. 
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We have SmartBoards in almost every classroom in our district (A very large district).  And a significant chunk of them are used as plain old marker boards.

Kids are also facing "technology fatigue".  Everything thing they do is on the computer, especially as schools go 1:1.  Kids actually get excited when we hand out worksheets...lol

 
jaws said:
I disagree. We don't need the latest and greatest for everything in education. There is so much waste in primary, secondary and higher education when it comes to technology. For instance, a raspberry pi can be used to teach computer science at all grade levels. You can also use services like code.org to teach basics on a Chromebook. You don't need the latest MacBook Pro to do this kind of stuff when a $35 computer will do. 

As for the infrastructure, when I graduated college in 2003 we had a handful of cheap wireless access points on campus. A college now can spend over 250k in just wireless costs. Students now a days can have 2 or 3 devices each in a classroom or 4 or 5 devices in their dorm room, and that costs a lot of money to provide wireless coverage. That doesn't even include the backend network infrastructure. And yes, students use Wifi for school work, but that is such a small percentage of overall network utilization. 
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I think you're overestimating how much cutting internet access will actually save money. For example, Michigan is updating it's internet and wifi for $24.5 million, which will be updated roughly every 5 years for around $12.25 million. That sounds like a lot of money, but when you consider that there's about 44000 students that works out to about $111/student/year for the first 5 years and then about $55/student/year after that. And that's a for a state-of-the-art system.

 
jaws said:
I disagree. We don't need the latest and greatest for everything in education. There is so much waste in primary, secondary and higher education when it comes to technology. For instance, a raspberry pi can be used to teach computer science at all grade levels. You can also use services like code.org to teach basics on a Chromebook. You don't need the latest MacBook Pro to do this kind of stuff when a $35 computer will do. 

As for the infrastructure, when I graduated college in 2003 we had a handful of cheap wireless access points on campus. A college now can spend over 250k in just wireless costs. Students now a days can have 2 or 3 devices each in a classroom or 4 or 5 devices in their dorm room, and that costs a lot of money to provide wireless coverage. That doesn't even include the backend network infrastructure. And yes, students use Wifi for school work, but that is such a small percentage of overall network utilization. 
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I was mainly talking about higher education like at the University.  It would not be good for UNL to not have wifi for students to use on campus.  That isn't just to watch Netflix. My kids use it constantly for their studies when on campus.  And...yes....our University needs technology.  That's the world they will be asked to work in when they graduate.  As an employer, I want to hire people who are used to working with technology.

As for HS, sure...they don't need the latest computer.  Our school doesn't have the latest and greatest.  But, they need to have something.  Our school uses Chrome Books and they suck.  But, at least it gives every student the ability to do research, write papers, do homework...etc and learn how to use technology they are going to be asked to use in the work place.

And...my point actually was....no matter what technology these schools have, it's an expense that schools used to not have.

 
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I didn't read every single post in this topic, so I'm sorry if it has already been discussed or mentioned. I'm a high school math teacher and I am currently in my 18th year or teaching. I do make a decent wage, but mainly because I went and got my masters degree and I coach. I don't know how teachers can make a decent living if they don't at least get their masters, because that is usually a significant pay raise. Here are a few thoughts that I do have about college:

#1) I am a high school math teacher, but I had to take Science, History, English and other elective classes in college. College needs to be a place that you focus just on your chosen field. I took some interesting classes, but I don't know why I needed that information to teach math.

#2) I always see people claiming that college should be free. This is a terrible idea in my honest opinion. Where is all of that money going to come from to get students through college? More than likely, taxes. We will all have to pay much higher taxes so that students can receive a free education. I could see many people moving away from college towns if the taxes were based on location in the school district like elementary and high school is.

#3) Just because I don't feel that college should be free doesn't mean that I think it should cost as much as it does. There are many fees in college that are ridiculous. I went to Chadron, so my student loans were very easy to pay off after college. I couldn't even imagine what it would have been like if I would have attended a University or a private college. 

#4) I have discussions with students all the time about what they should be doing after high school. I feel that a lot of people my age went to college after high school because that is what you are supposed to do. I tell kids that they need to think seriously about what they want to do as a career and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a trade school or 2 year school to get a degree that they will actually use. 

I don't have all the answers, but I really do feel like we need to rethink and revamp a lot of areas in high school and college and gear them more towards getting kids in to fields that they are interested in and will actually excel in some day. In the words of Judge Smails, "The world needs ditchdiggers too." Kids need to realize that they need to do what they like and what they are good at instead of what all of their friends are doing. It's ok to be a ditchdigger as long as you are good at it, enjoy it and make a decent living. 

Sorry for the long post, my students are taking a Geometry test right now and I had some time.

 
SandhillshuskerW said:
I didn't read every single post in this topic, so I'm sorry if it has already been discussed or mentioned. I'm a high school math teacher and I am currently in my 18th year or teaching. I do make a decent wage, but mainly because I went and got my masters degree and I coach. I don't know how teachers can make a decent living if they don't at least get their masters, because that is usually a significant pay raise. Here are a few thoughts that I do have about college:

#1) I am a high school math teacher, but I had to take Science, History, English and other elective classes in college. College needs to be a place that you focus just on your chosen field. I took some interesting classes, but I don't know why I needed that information to teach math.

#2) I always see people claiming that college should be free. This is a terrible idea in my honest opinion. Where is all of that money going to come from to get students through college? More than likely, taxes. We will all have to pay much higher taxes so that students can receive a free education. I could see many people moving away from college towns if the taxes were based on location in the school district like elementary and high school is.

#3) Just because I don't feel that college should be free doesn't mean that I think it should cost as much as it does. There are many fees in college that are ridiculous. I went to Chadron, so my student loans were very easy to pay off after college. I couldn't even imagine what it would have been like if I would have attended a University or a private college. 

#4) I have discussions with students all the time about what they should be doing after high school. I feel that a lot of people my age went to college after high school because that is what you are supposed to do. I tell kids that they need to think seriously about what they want to do as a career and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a trade school or 2 year school to get a degree that they will actually use. 

I don't have all the answers, but I really do feel like we need to rethink and revamp a lot of areas in high school and college and gear them more towards getting kids in to fields that they are interested in and will actually excel in some day. In the words of Judge Smails, "The world needs ditchdiggers too." Kids need to realize that they need to do what they like and what they are good at instead of what all of their friends are doing. It's ok to be a ditchdigger as long as you are good at it, enjoy it and make a decent living. 

Sorry for the long post, my students are taking a Geometry test right now and I had some time.
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I'm an Industrial Technology teacher, and I approve this message  :thumbs

 
SandhillshuskerW said:
I didn't read every single post in this topic, so I'm sorry if it has already been discussed or mentioned. I'm a high school math teacher and I am currently in my 18th year or teaching. I do make a decent wage, but mainly because I went and got my masters degree and I coach. I don't know how teachers can make a decent living if they don't at least get their masters, because that is usually a significant pay raise. Here are a few thoughts that I do have about college:

#1) I am a high school math teacher, but I had to take Science, History, English and other elective classes in college. College needs to be a place that you focus just on your chosen field. I took some interesting classes, but I don't know why I needed that information to teach math.

#2) I always see people claiming that college should be free. This is a terrible idea in my honest opinion. Where is all of that money going to come from to get students through college? More than likely, taxes. We will all have to pay much higher taxes so that students can receive a free education. I could see many people moving away from college towns if the taxes were based on location in the school district like elementary and high school is.

#3) Just because I don't feel that college should be free doesn't mean that I think it should cost as much as it does. There are many fees in college that are ridiculous. I went to Chadron, so my student loans were very easy to pay off after college. I couldn't even imagine what it would have been like if I would have attended a University or a private college. 

#4) I have discussions with students all the time about what they should be doing after high school. I feel that a lot of people my age went to college after high school because that is what you are supposed to do. I tell kids that they need to think seriously about what they want to do as a career and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a trade school or 2 year school to get a degree that they will actually use. 

I don't have all the answers, but I really do feel like we need to rethink and revamp a lot of areas in high school and college and gear them more towards getting kids in to fields that they are interested in and will actually excel in some day. In the words of Judge Smails, "The world needs ditchdiggers too." Kids need to realize that they need to do what they like and what they are good at instead of what all of their friends are doing. It's ok to be a ditchdigger as long as you are good at it, enjoy it and make a decent living. 

Sorry for the long post, my students are taking a Geometry test right now and I had some time.
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Regarding number 2, wouldn't the cost of college be reduced dramatically if some of the elements you mentioned in number 1 were enacted? I was a psych major, but had to take a slew of pointless classes like astronomy, geology, Latin American history etc. If folks aren't required to take those needless classes, wouldn't that effectively drive down the cost to something more reasonable? But also consider what having free, or significantly more affordable college would do for the workforce. Wouldn't we all be better off if everyone had access to a college degree? Wouldn't the cost in taxes result in a better society/populace? 

 
Fru said:
Regarding number 2, wouldn't the cost of college be reduced dramatically if some of the elements you mentioned in number 1 were enacted? I was a psych major, but had to take a slew of pointless classes like astronomy, geology, Latin American history etc. If folks aren't required to take those needless classes, wouldn't that effectively drive down the cost to something more reasonable? But also consider what having free, or significantly more affordable college would do for the workforce. Wouldn't we all be better off if everyone had access to a college degree? Wouldn't the cost in taxes result in a better society/populace? 
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 Very much so in my opinion. College costs would come down quite a bit if you didn't have to take pointless classes. 

I agree that society would benefit if we all had access to a college degree, but where is that money coming from? It would obviously have to come from taxes. How are you going to figure out who pays taxes on which college? Would it be based on states, counties or the whole U.S.? If it was based on states, more people would probably move to states that didn't have many colleges because taxes would be lower there. Why would you live in a state like Texas if you have to pay taxes on all of those colleges?

 
SandhillshuskerW said:
 Very much so in my opinion. College costs would come down quite a bit if you didn't have to take pointless classes. 

I agree that society would benefit if we all had access to a college degree, but where is that money coming from? It would obviously have to come from taxes. How are you going to figure out who pays taxes on which college? Would it be based on states, counties or the whole U.S.? If it was based on states, more people would probably move to states that didn't have many colleges because taxes would be lower there. Why would you live in a state like Texas if you have to pay taxes on all of those colleges?
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I don't think they would come down as much as people would like to think. I doubt there have been many faculty positions added because of "pointless classes".

 
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