Good news for us re: Obamacare/ACA

zoogies said:
I think it's the individual mandate. Here's an editorial though that claims it's a bad idea:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/delaying-the-individual-mandate-is-a-bad-idea/2013/10/25/d2e80cca-3cf1-11e3-b7ba-503fb5822c3e_story.html
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That makes sense. I did not know people had that long to signup before any penalty would be enforced. I say give them some time to fix it and get it running properly before any talk of delaying the mandate is warranted. It's just a shame that they didn't handle something of this magnitude more appropriately. I don't think clusterf*ck is too strong of a term for this rollout.

 
Junior said:
carlfense said:
As an aside, we really need to get away from these phrases that are designed to shut down the conversation. If by socialized we mean paid for or provided by the government: I drove on a socialized highway this morning. Made coffee with socialized tap water. Etc.
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That's just because you're a communist, Carl. I drove on a freedom highway and made coffee with freedom water.
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And if I really cared that much about how my coffee tastes..I'd probably use water made by those Artesian fellas..

zoogies said:
JJ, what are the other things?

Health care isn't a commodity you can choose as a consumer to acquire or not. It's more of an inextricable necessity for anyone who happens to be alive.

Similar example: if you happen to drive, you are required to purchase auto insurance. There's no such thing as 'informed choice'.
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I don't get that at all.

Edit: Or what our inability to ride a tricycle has to do with anything.

I feel spending $10-20 a month on a health club membership is a MUCH better investment on my well being than wasting $150 a month on "protection" and/or gobs of red tape for "imaginary help" in paying a Hospital bill when there's not one thing imaginable that could get me to even GO to a Dr...Except maybe get this giant "DNR" tattoo highlighted with some fancy stitches on my chest.

The Auto Insurance pissed me off a little when I started driving until I realized that it was also to protect the people/property that I might drive into and make sure they were taken care of.

 
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That's the problem. You go outside and get in a freak accident. Or you come down with a cancer you don't see coming. Bills that nobody can handle on their own, without help. Nobody is able to plan on never needing health care, even though they can probably get by for years without it. The problem is when it does come and they can't bear the costs. Smart, rational people have the same mindset as you and make the same decisions precisely because we have no reason to expect not to get away with it. But across the board, across millions of people in the country, that percentage called "you can't run away from cancer, etc" crops up. While the incidence rate is (relatively) small, the costs per are not, and those costs are then born by everybody else.

The auto insurance thing isn't just to protect others. That's a component of it too. You might think you're a totally safe driver and you don't need it, but then one day you slip up or heck, a deer flies into your path, and find it pretty hard to swallow the thousands of dollars of non-insurance backed immediate costs that are suddenly required to fix your own car.

These are decisions that people can't make, and it has significant cost to society at large, both monetary and otherwise. It's not just a matter of personal responsibility when the collective lack of it hits everybody else in the wallet.

 
zoogies said:
That's the problem. You go outside and get in a freak accident. Or you come down with a cancer you don't see coming. Bills that nobody can handle on their own, without help. Nobody is able to plan on never needing health care, even though they can probably get by for years without it. The problem is when it does come and they can't bear the costs. Smart, rational people have the same mindset as you and make the same decisions precisely because we have no reason to expect not to get away with it. But across the board, across millions of people in the country, that percentage called "you can't run away from cancer, etc" crops up. While the incidence rate is (relatively) small, the costs per are not, and those costs are then born by everybody else.

The auto insurance thing isn't just to protect others. That's a component of it too. You might think you're a totally safe driver and you don't need it, but then one day you slip up or heck, a deer flies into your path, and find it pretty hard to swallow the thousands of dollars of non-insurance backed immediate costs that are suddenly required to fix your own car.

These are decisions that people can't make, and it has significant cost to society at large, both monetary and otherwise. It's not just a matter of personal responsibility when the collective lack of it hits everybody else in the wallet.
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But "We The People" were supposed to be the only ones allowed to make these decisions...That's what separated us from previous societies and other animals ...except for the weasels.

Back when I was living in Lincoln, I had a motorcycle accident after passing out while making sure my best friend got home safely. It was my own fault for drinking that 2nd beer ~10 hours after riding my mountain bike to Branched Oak Lake that afternoon and getting a little heat stressed...The first beer gave me a tremendous buzz? that made me..in my invincible mid twenties, decide not to drink the rest of the night.

I was told that I threw an orderly? across the Ambulance that happened to be following me, but even with a broken collarbone and 5 broken ribs, (and less than semi conscious with a concussion)...Still don't remember it..I went down to the Police station to apologize and get some facts a few weeks later...One officer told me I requested a breath test because I was so afraid of the needle...Which makes sense in a semi-conscious state I must've been in..I've always been afraid of needles, but under normal conditions, can overcome that fear.

Since my overpriced Brilliant Lawyer convinced me to plead guilty to refusing a blood test (which they took anyway sometime when I was KO'd), my Insurance company refused to help me with the ~$8,000 hospital bill.

Presently, I do worry about accidents and seem to have more than my share of near misses ..usually involving someone texting while going WAY less than 80 like the rest of us.. on the 54 miles of freeway I drive every day...

But I've already lived over twice as long as I ever really wanted to and will refuse medical treatment if given the chance,

Every time I've gone to a Dr, I swear it will be my last..(Two hours of waiting for 3 minutes of watching the Dr. hide his face in some file and write something about the previous patient, only to hear the same sort of stuff my Dad would've told me a lifetime earlier...I had more than one professor and a father that stressed to me the human body's ability to heal itself (Usually faster than with the aid of Western Medicine) and I refuse to live long enough to have to rely on countless Prescription drugs like My Mom used to, when looking back, the combination of hers is what made her last couple of decades almost unbearable.

Not getting Insurance through my employer has been saving me around $1500 a year..which might not seem like much..and after tweaking my ACL a couple of months ago, I was mighty tempted to get it at last month's open enrollment..But with our wages being pretty much frozen the last 5 years..Half of my take home pay goes for the mortgage (My ex had to pay more than that for rent on a dinky apartment after she moved out)..Half of what's left I have to pay her to help her keep my Son away from me ~24 days a month...Did I mention that my employer "layed off" half a dozen workers Friday?

My Boss and another Chemist I work with are now in the habit of bitching about our sucky new insurance, and how little it helps with the simple office visits/bills...My Boss Said his Arthritis Dr even suggested pretending he didn't have insurance and cutting a better deal on the tests just so the Dr's office people wouldn't have to deal with this particular Insurance company again.

 
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JJHusker1 said:
zoogies said:
Also, in what sense can the ACA be described as legalized extortion? I don't understand the ACA so well, so it's an honest question as to where that's coming from. The individual mandate doesn't seem to fit the bill at all, because society as a whole bears the healthcare costs of everybody -- just because a person doesn't choose to purchase healthcare for themselves doesn't mean they don't run into health issues and end up in a hospital.
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It's legalized because they passed a bill and made a law out of it. It's extortion because in effect it says, purchase this service or be subjected to punishment for not purchasing it. We have quite few other things that could be classified the same. So, yes, it is legalized extortion. The fact that society bears the cost of healthcare really doesn't affect that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not all up in arms because it is legalized extortion. And I have some rather heartless feelings on whether or not society should bear the cost of healthcare for individuals who have the financial ability and made an informed choice to forego acquiring health insurance. The only way this deal works is with an individual mandate. I think it goes against the grain of what our country stands (stood) for but, it is highly necessary to make it work. In fact, I am starting to think they should have made the penalties much stiffer. Like equal to the cost of insurance stiffer. We will still be able to have uninsured people seeking care, not paying for it, and those costs getting passed on to others. We'll have to wait and see how much that problem gets mitigated by the individual mandate. If it's still a problem, I'm all for much larger penalties.
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I plus-ed one you before I read your last paragraph..

And the part I'll probably get fined; for not playing along seems to be mysteriously the exact same amount my employer would have me pay for my portion of the insurance premiums...

I know...a Sane person would realize that he's not gaining anything by refusing insurance, but sometimes you just gotta make a stand...And anybody who's ever noticed my postings on here has GOT to know sanity is never my strong pernt.

The reason I said "it seems like they're sponsoring Legalized Extortion". is partially because "WE the People" never got a vote in this..Something that "mainly" only directly effects us non-politicians.

I may not know the exact meaning of this fancy legal term, but it reminds me of the new bar owner getting a little visit from a couple of nicely dressed gentlemen named something like Guido or Sal..Insisting that he pay them for "Protection" from things that go bump in the night...When it's really "Dose Gies" he should be protected against...

In a way, I agree that we all should take a responsibility in the care and feeding of others...But we do not get near as many Karma points if we are forced to do it..We should do it as "Charity" like our folks Intended...

...to.

 
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Husker37,

There are millions upon millions of people who can't make the choice to get health insurance because they can't afford it. Do you want to continue looking out for ME. MYSELF. RIGHT NOW. Or do you want the best for your country and humanity and your future? Literally every argument you have used against Obamacare uses yourself as the sole example. Okay, so you're one of the idiots who is nearly 100% healthy and doesn't want medical coverage and blah blah blah. It's self-centered and it isn't a legitimate argument against a piece of legislation designed to improve things for the entire country.

Some people have brighter visions for the world as a whole and for the future.

 
That article is weird.

So tell me, Mr. George Schwab, how does a 62 year old man and his wife manage to find an insurance policy covering them both for only $228/mo? I mean does it have a 30K deductible and a 40% after deductible rate? That's absurd and clearly a cherry-picked if not flat-out false example.

How about you, Heather Goldwater? You've got a business and a 6-month old child but apparently can't be bothered to inform yourself about the current healthcare state of affairs. This whole health care thing is cah-RAY-ZEE!

Then again, people love anecdotes. Drink that sh#t right up.

 
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Guys we knew this would happen. We knew things would start out "bad" because the full mandate doesn't kick in for 2 years. But once the mandate is in full effect and you get the flood of "healthy" people signing up, the costs are going to normalize. sh#t, between that and the subsidies, costs are going to go down for a ton of people.

f'ing be patient.

Step 1 of course is getting the damn website fixed. Let's worry about what's actually broken (the site) rather than what isn't (the program itself)

 
Leno put it so aptly; only the government would institute a website slower than the USPS.

So not only was the WH full of it; but their main squeeze Pelosi is also. "You'll just have to pass it to see what's in it." Now we have to wait another 2 years for the mandate to kick in. Then we will "see" what's truly in it?? So many people 60% or more that could "keep" their policy won't and may not be able to afford a "better" coverage policy. So that's better how? I think that many of the people in this predicament will find it "difficult" at best to have any patience with a government who doesn't seem to have their best interests at heart.

The NBC article couldn't possibly ring true. Just like the NSA and IRS sources. Just sources within the ACA. Sour grapes there.

NBC in cahoots with FOX; who's next. The bastages.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-administration-knew-millions-wouldn-t-be-able-to-keep-insurance--report-222249311.html

 
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Foes of Obamacare are excitedly citing a rash of new stories claiming untold Americans are “losing” their insurance, as CBS News’ Norah O’Donnell puts it. One of them is this NBC News story, which reports that “millions of Americans are getting or are about to get cancellation letters for their health insurance under Obamacare, say experts, and the Obama administration has known that for at least three years.”
Critics of the law are right to ask whether it is having an adverse impact on these millions of Americans. And the White House could have been clearer in laying the groundwork for this political argument: It wasn’t sufficient to say people who like their plans will be able to keep it, which is narrowly untrue.

But the GOP outrage about Americans supposedly “losing” coverage is largely just more of the same old misdirection. It’s a subset of a larger Republican refusal to have an actual debate about the law’s tradeoffs — one in which the law’s benefits for millions of Americans are also reckoned with in a serious way.

On the substance of this argument, Igor Volsky has a good response, noting that these Americans aren’t “losing” coverage at all: "Individuals receiving cancellation notices will have a choice of enrolling in subsidized insurance in the exchanges and will probably end up paying less for more coverage. Those who don’t qualify for the tax credits will be paying more for comprehensive insurance that will be there for them when they become sick (and could actually end up spending less for health care since more services will now be covered). They will also no longer be part of a system in which the young and healthy are offered cheap insurance premiums because their sick neighbors are priced out or denied coverage. That, after all, is the whole point of reform."

But many foes of Obamacare refuse to grapple seriously with the basic tradeoff at the core of the law. For a fair look at whether this tradeoff is “worth it,” see Jonathan Cohn.

While it is too soon to assess the true dimensions of this tradeoff, the debate over it is entirely legitimate. It is the policy debate we should be having. But some Obamacare foes don’t even acknowledge that the law involves a tradeoff at all. Only the law’s downsides, and not the millions who stand to gain — many old, poor or sick — must be acknowledged.

As the Post’s Glenn Kessler argued in debunking some of Ted Cruz’s rhetoric about “millions” losing from Obamacare: “The full impact of the health-care law will not be known for years, and there are bound to be winners and losers in any major change in social policy…he does not allow at all for the possibility that millions of people are benefiting from the law — and that quite likely the number of winners from the law is larger than the losers.”
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http://www.washingto...-is-impossible/

 
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