How good can we be with TM under center next year?

[NUance]

Hey, Tmart threw a grand total of "3" interceptions in the last eight games we played. "Three". One was a Hail Mary with two seconds left in the 1st half (Ohio St) & another was a tipped ball (Michigan St.) He did throw 9 TD passes in those same games too. What do you want from the guy?

I knew his passing stats were better. But I had no idea he had stats like that. Pretty remarkable, considering it was against B1G defenses. Especially considering our WRs aren't exactly the greatest at going after the ball. And actually catching it.

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Beck - you mean the guy who knows best what Taylor's strengths and abilities are and what how to utilize them, and the same guy who is at fault whenever Taylor makes an interception for having no idea what the team's strengths and abilities are and calling a stupid play?

What in the world are you talking about?

Let's revisit a first-half interception Taylor made in the Ohio State game.

That was ENTIRELY on Tim Beck/Bo Pelini. I swear to god, the next person that blames that play on Taylor.

He had no choice but to force a ball downfield based on what his coaches were asking. They ran a QB draw, then DIDN'T CALL A TIMEOUT, let 20 seconds run off the clock, and then called a vertical pass play.

If you're going to run the clock out, why pass? If you're trying to score, why let the clock run? To go to a checkdown receiver on that play would have contradicted his coaches' desire which apparently was to try and score, he had no choice but to go downfield if they wanted to score.

That was god-awful coaching, and nothing else.

Damn straight.

That was simply bad coaching decisions. Nothing else.

Tim Beck only called the play. He did not force Taylor to be cavalier with ball security and force him to make a throw that was at high risk to get picked off, deep in our own territory.

Here is a question. I don't think Tim Beck called a lot of rollout passes this year for Taylor. Very few, I remember some earlier in the year, but we went away from that big time in the end. Now, you tell me: does Tim beck know that Taylor is not very good rolling out and throwing on the run, or is he too daft to realize that Taylor would kill defenses doing that?

It could be beneficial to role Taylor out of the pocket some, but Taylor will never kill a defense with his arm.... I am a Martinez supporter, but the kid isn't going to be anything more then an mediocre passer.... I am not sure that I trust Taylor's decision making when roling out of the pocket either, with defenses sliding across the field, moving with him, I am not sure that he would consistently make the right decision and be able to correctly read the defense....

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

How good can we be with TM under center next year?

I think the answer to that question lies more with Tim Beck than it does with Martinez. Martinez is a known quantity. We all know what he can do and can't do. He runs really, really fast in a straight line, passes just OK with that weird motion, lacks lateral movement, lacks pocket presence and does the strangest things going into contact that I've just about ever seen, you know, that stutter step cringe thing standing straight up. If that is the horse you are going to ride then it's up to Beck to maximize the run really, really fast in a straight line part so that threat is there constantly for the defense and throw in enough of a passing game to keep people honest.

Running in a straight line isn't an offense, so you can't expect beck to "roll" with that alone.... I agree with your assessment/description of Martinez's play, he is a QB who is lacking quite a bit in many areas.... If Martinez does not show significant improvement by the middle of next year, you would have to think that the staff would look at a different option right? I am hoping that Taylor can make the necessary improvements, but if he doesn't then he has to sit.... and this is coming from a guy who has been in full support of the Martinez project....

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Hey, Tmart threw a grand total of "3" interceptions in the last eight games we played. "Three". One was a Hail Mary with two seconds left in the 1st half (Ohio St) & another was a tipped ball (Michigan St.) He did throw 9 TD passes in those same games too. What do you want from the guy?

I knew his passing stats were better. But I had no idea he had stats like that. Pretty remarkable, considering it was against B1G defenses. Especially considering our WRs aren't exactly the greatest at going after the ball. And actually catching it.

That is an impressive stat, but it's not like they have asked him to stretch the field with his passing.... The throws they are asking him to make are not all that challenging for a D-1 QB....

 

[Hercules]

Beck - you mean the guy who knows best what Taylor's strengths and abilities are and what how to utilize them, and the same guy who is at fault whenever Taylor makes an interception for having no idea what the team's strengths and abilities are and calling a stupid play?

What in the world are you talking about?

Let's revisit a first-half interception Taylor made in the Ohio State game.

That was ENTIRELY on Tim Beck/Bo Pelini. I swear to god, the next person that blames that play on Taylor.

He had no choice but to force a ball downfield based on what his coaches were asking. They ran a QB draw, then DIDN'T CALL A TIMEOUT, let 20 seconds run off the clock, and then called a vertical pass play.

If you're going to run the clock out, why pass? If you're trying to score, why let the clock run? To go to a checkdown receiver on that play would have contradicted his coaches' desire which apparently was to try and score, he had no choice but to go downfield if they wanted to score.

That was god-awful coaching, and nothing else.

Damn straight.

That was simply bad coaching decisions. Nothing else.

Tim Beck only called the play. He did not force Taylor to be cavalier with ball security and force him to make a throw that was at high risk to get picked off, deep in our own territory.

Here is a question. I don't think Tim Beck called a lot of rollout passes this year for Taylor. Very few, I remember some earlier in the year, but we went away from that big time in the end. Now, you tell me: does Tim beck know that Taylor is not very good rolling out and throwing on the run, or is he too daft to realize that Taylor would kill defenses doing that?

The "terrible coaching" I was talking about in that sequence had less to do playcalling and more to do with clock management. If I recall correctly, we started the drive conservative, ran a bunch of clock off and looked as if we were just trying to get to the locker room. THEN we all of a sudden launched one downfield that got picked. Maybe the coaches were just trying to run the clock out and Taylor took things into his own hands, which would be on Taylor.

But if the coaches wanted to score, and managed the clock so poorly that the only shot they had at scoring was to launch the ball downfield, then yeah, that interception is on them. When you force things downfield when the defense KNOWS you have to force them downfield to accomplish what you need to, sometimes interceptions happen. It's high-risk. That has as much to do with circumstance as it does with skill.

That whole sequence has less to do with Beck knowing Taylor's abilities/limitations, and much more to do with questionable clock management by Bo. If you want to talk about Beck knowing his players' limitations, go to the first half against Wisconsin, or go to that postgame, where Beck said he needed to be smarter about putting his players in position to succeed.

And to get back to where this argument started, which is whether Beck and Bo are utilizing Taylor's skillset in a way that benefits the team the most - all I'd say is that if he's the best QB on the team, then we best utilize his skills at QB. Maybe he would make a better WR than QB, I don't know - but at this point it looks like he's the best option at QB, and since that's the most important position on the field, we better keep him in that spot.

 

[Mavric]

Tommie Frazier ran the option 70% of the time, and when he wasn't running the option he was handing it off to the HB in the I formation, or to the FB in a triple option. When he didn't keep it on the option, he was pitching it to LP and Ahman Green who both had some pretty amazing numbers if I don't recall? Hmmm, you think Tommie had anything to do with that? Comparing Tommie Frazier's or any other QB's numbers in the option system to Taylors numbers now? Thats apples and oranges. We've ran an entirely different offensive style since the option days of the nineties here in Nebraska in case you haven't been watching.

I'm not sure what Frazier running the option 70% of the time has to do with your argument. Shouldn't that have given him a lot of chances to rack up yards?

Phillips and Green were great backs. Phillips ran for 1722 yds in 1994, the second-best season in Husker history. Green ran for 1086 in 1995, the Husker freshman record. Green is the #2 rusher in Husker history. Phillips is #8 (in limited action). However, Burkhead's 1357 this year is #7 all-time bumping Helu's 1,245 last year to #12. Helu is #4 on the career rushing list. Burkhead is already #12 and would be easily into the #2 spot (ahead of Green and joining Rozier as the only 4,000 yd rushers in Husker history) with the same numbers next year. Martinez needs to average 657 yards over the next two years to move into the #6 spot (he had 874 this year) which would mean three of the six leading rushers in Husker history would have been on the 2010 team. I think Martinez definitely had something to do with that.

No maybe you didn't read right? Tommie Frazier would execute this offense far better than Taylor Martinez! If Tommie in his day took Taylor's place the last two years, Tommie would be DYNO MITE!

So TM isn't as good as one of the greatest Huskers in history. How does that equate to Martinez not being good?

 

[zoogs]

bshirt, I am simply explaining what I pointed out in that original post. To defend Taylor, you will say "trust the coaches, they know far better about how good he is." But when Taylor makes a mistake, you will say "Eff those coaches, it wasn't Taylor's fault, it's all on Beck."

If you're admitting now that those picks were on Taylor, that is fine. I would agree. And yeah, guys make mistakes. Big deal. But that wasn't your position before. And that is what I took exception to.

As far as your question, I really don't know as there's lots of variables involved in putting together a game plan. It's not as simple as you suggest, zoogies. Beck has to consider every part of the offense & the defense we'll be playing (the Oline, wrs, blocking, defensive schemes and talent matchups as what positions, etc). It's not "just" Tmart that decides his game-plan. Are you with me?

After this statement, I really hope you were not one of the people screaming that Watson was incompetent for not giving Taylor rollouts last season

The "terrible coaching" I was talking about in that sequence had less to do playcalling and more to do with clock management.

I think I would agree with you there. I think in my original post that you responded to (I left it out to save screen space) I was also criticizing the playcalling.

Not to rehash an old argument too much, but you were saying, "what choice did Taylor have"? in that discussion - as if Taylor had no choice but to throw an interception deep in our own territory. Doesn't matter how questionable the playcalling is, you always have the option to not make the kind of throw he did. Put simply, I'd put blame on Beck and Bo for clock management and wasting a drive. But the turnover is almost all on Taylor, the way that play unfolded.

I suppose what I am trying to say is: coaches are not infallible. So you can point to "well, the coaches obviously feel this way" - but I really disagree with acting like that is the end-all, be-all of the discussion.

Herc, I did not know that you considered the QB the most important position on the field for what we run.

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Yes, Tommie Frazier IS better then Taylor Martinez....

 

[Mavric]

The "terrible coaching" I was talking about in that sequence had less to do playcalling and more to do with clock management. If I recall correctly, we started the drive conservative, ran a bunch of clock off and looked as if we were just trying to get to the locker room. THEN we all of a sudden launched one downfield that got picked. Maybe the coaches were just trying to run the clock out and Taylor took things into his own hands, which would be on Taylor.

You do not recall correctly. That "drive" started on our own 16 yard line with 52 seconds left in the half. Martinez ran for six yards on the first play (I don't recall if that was a called run or a scramble) then the INT came on the next play. Clock management was not the issue.

 

[dspanther05]

T-Mart is not a dual threat quarterback. He isn't even a single threat QB. He racks up rushing yards against chumps the first 4 games of the season and then takes him the entire conference schedule and a bowl game to match his output of the first 4. He is not elusive, makes terrible decision both throwing and running the ball, and is a joke to every fan base in America along with our bumbling idiot of a head coach. Outside of Penn State's QB and Ohio State's backup QB, I would have traded him for any of the other QBs we played this season including Tennessee-Chattanooga, Fresno State, and Wyoming.

 

[husker_99]

How good can we be with TM under center next year?

I think the answer to that question lies more with Tim Beck than it does with Martinez. Martinez is a known quantity. We all know what he can do and can't do. He runs really, really fast in a straight line, passes just OK with that weird motion, lacks lateral movement, lacks pocket presence and does the strangest things going into contact that I've just about ever seen, you know, that stutter step cringe thing standing straight up. If that is the horse you are going to ride then it's up to Beck to maximize the run really, really fast in a straight line part so that threat is there constantly for the defense and throw in enough of a passing game to keep people honest.

Running in a straight line isn't an offense, so you can't expect beck to "roll" with that alone.... I agree with your assessment/description of Martinez's play, he is a QB who is lacking quite a bit in many areas.... If Martinez does not show significant improvement by the middle of next year, you would have to think that the staff would look at a different option right? I am hoping that Taylor can make the necessary improvements, but if he doesn't then he has to sit.... and this is coming from a guy who has been in full support of the Martinez project....

I would agree that Martinez needs to make strides or else be replaced. He's a 3 year starter and things need to really start coming together for him and if not Carnes deserves a shot. Also we need a wrs coach who can coach our receivers to actually catch the ball.

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

How good can we be with TM under center next year?

I think the answer to that question lies more with Tim Beck than it does with Martinez. Martinez is a known quantity. We all know what he can do and can't do. He runs really, really fast in a straight line, passes just OK with that weird motion, lacks lateral movement, lacks pocket presence and does the strangest things going into contact that I've just about ever seen, you know, that stutter step cringe thing standing straight up. If that is the horse you are going to ride then it's up to Beck to maximize the run really, really fast in a straight line part so that threat is there constantly for the defense and throw in enough of a passing game to keep people honest.

Running in a straight line isn't an offense, so you can't expect beck to "roll" with that alone.... I agree with your assessment/description of Martinez's play, he is a QB who is lacking quite a bit in many areas.... If Martinez does not show significant improvement by the middle of next year, you would have to think that the staff would look at a different option right? I am hoping that Taylor can make the necessary improvements, but if he doesn't then he has to sit.... and this is coming from a guy who has been in full support of the Martinez project....

I would agree that Martinez needs to make strides or else be replaced. He's a 3 year starter and things need to really start coming together for him and if not Carnes deserves a shot. Also we need a wrs coach who can coach our receivers to actually catch the ball.

I thought Fisher did a nice job this year, and there was definite improvement.... How do you coach a WR to catch the ball? I get teaching them technique, but to actually coach them to "catch" it would be difficult....In my opinion that is all on the receiver if the ball is catchable....

 

[TheW0rld]

How good can we be with TM under center next year?

I think the answer to that question lies more with Tim Beck than it does with Martinez. Martinez is a known quantity. We all know what he can do and can't do. He runs really, really fast in a straight line, passes just OK with that weird motion, lacks lateral movement, lacks pocket presence and does the strangest things going into contact that I've just about ever seen, you know, that stutter step cringe thing standing straight up. If that is the horse you are going to ride then it's up to Beck to maximize the run really, really fast in a straight line part so that threat is there constantly for the defense and throw in enough of a passing game to keep people honest.

Running in a straight line isn't an offense, so you can't expect beck to "roll" with that alone.... I agree with your assessment/description of Martinez's play, he is a QB who is lacking quite a bit in many areas.... If Martinez does not show significant improvement by the middle of next year, you would have to think that the staff would look at a different option right? I am hoping that Taylor can make the necessary improvements, but if he doesn't then he has to sit.... and this is coming from a guy who has been in full support of the Martinez project....

I think at least he could concentrate on perfecting their read option game instead of trying to run him down the line in a traditional option so much. That's most of what I was getting at. Oregon stresses defenses with their spacing and speed. Nebraska has some personnel that could do the same type of thing.

 

[Hercules]

The "terrible coaching" I was talking about in that sequence had less to do playcalling and more to do with clock management. If I recall correctly, we started the drive conservative, ran a bunch of clock off and looked as if we were just trying to get to the locker room. THEN we all of a sudden launched one downfield that got picked. Maybe the coaches were just trying to run the clock out and Taylor took things into his own hands, which would be on Taylor.

You do not recall correctly. That "drive" started on our own 16 yard line with 52 seconds left in the half. Martinez ran for six yards on the first play (I don't recall if that was a called run or a scramble) then the INT came on the next play. Clock management was not the issue.

So we called a draw, and then didn't call a timeout, and then threw downfield? How does that make any sense in terms of clock management? If you're going to let the clock burn, why would you call a pass? If you're going to try to score, why would you call a draw and then not call a timeout?

 

[Hercules]

Herc, I did not know that you considered the QB the most important position on the field for what we run.

I think it's the most important "single" position. The OL is the most important position group, but that's really 5 positions, not just one.

The QB is responsible for an awful lot though in our offense though. I think Taylor receives fair criticism in many ways (what bugs me most is that his biggest critics aren't equally critical of every other player on the field), but he receives hardly any credit for some of the things he does pretty well. For example, from what I understand, one of the things Taylor has done pretty well this year is checking in and out of plays in order to get the offense into the best play given what the defense is showing. That's a HUGE part of being QB that the fans never talk about, or even understand.