Martinez v. Armstrong

[In the Deed the Glory]

How a player orients his shoulders when he throws- doesnt matter if he is on air or playing against the 49rs

I could list dozens of other basic fundamentals that have nothing to do with if you have a great defense or not across from you

In the ELite QB camps, QBs are evaluated on BASIC FUNDAMENTALS

This.

Fundamentals are not the same as gameplan/play execution. Two different steps.

jmfb, I am curious what your opinion on Tommy's high throws are. I feel like it was a combination of misjudging the wind and being a little "amped up" early on. I do not feel like he is not stepping thru because of the knee, I think he follows thru fine unless not allowed to because of pressure. I am not a QB coach, so I want to hear your opinion.

 

[Army_Allen]

How a player orients his shoulders when he throws- doesnt matter if he is on air or playing against the 49rs

I could list dozens of other basic fundamentals that have nothing to do with if you have a great defense or not across from you

In the ELite QB camps, QBs are evaluated on BASIC FUNDAMENTALS

That's why a crap load of top tier qb's don't pan out. Because when that heat comes crashing down on you and it's the 4th quarter of the biggest game of your career so far and it's between the guy who's clutch in the 4th or the guy with basic fundamentals, you take the guy who plays to win the game. That's why play style and love of the game wise, I find great similarities between Favre and Tmart. Both could win or lose you the game, but you know when they go out there, they were doing it because they wanted it more than any other guy out there and weren't gonna go down without at least swinging. That's why Favre is one of my favorites and most fun to watch and the same can be said with Taylor. I may not know whether we're going to win a game with him and I may not know if he's gonna throw a big pick to lose it for us or a 94 yarder that lights up the field, but I'm surely gonna enjoy the ride.

 

[jmfb]

If memory serves me correctly, Gilbert was lights out in QB camps. He was a highly touted recruit, but at the end of the day it didn't matter. There's a reason only Nebraska and Notre Dumb recruited Frazier for QB. His resume speaks for itself. Until Armstrong plays lights out in bigger games like Northwestern and Michigan, I'll reserve my right to judge him.

You are 100% wrong on Frazier- here is the TRUTH- he was heavily recruited by Clemson, Syracuse, Notre Dame, NU and dozens of others to play QB- he was #3 overall according to Lemming. Osborne in his book, actually teared up when they told him TF signed, TO knew he was that good, the missing link.

You may just be remembering that Colorado wanted him as an athlete- the rest wanted him at QB http://nebraska.scou.../2/1169604.html

That was AFTER CU signed Koy Detmer and were planning to revamp their offense.

When you look at the QB camps- most of those top rated kids pan out to be good ones, not all, but most

Mechanics matter, tech matters, how fast you get the ball out matters, footwork matters, elbow elevation matters

REALLY hard to significantly change a QBs mechs once he's out of HS-

 

[jmfb]

How a player orients his shoulders when he throws- doesnt matter if he is on air or playing against the 49rs

I could list dozens of other basic fundamentals that have nothing to do with if you have a great defense or not across from you

In the ELite QB camps, QBs are evaluated on BASIC FUNDAMENTALS

That's why a crap load of top tier qb's don't pan out. Because when that heat comes crashing down on you and it's the 4th quarter of the biggest game of your career so far and it's between the guy who's clutch in the 4th or the guy with basic fundamentals, you take the guy who plays to win the game. That's why play style and love of the game wise, I find great similarities between Favre and Tmart. Both could win or lose you the game, but you know when they go out there, they were doing it because they wanted it more than any other guy out there and weren't gonna go down without at least swinging. That's why Favre is one of my favorites and most fun to watch and the same can be said with Taylor. I may not know whether we're going to win a game with him and I may not know if he's gonna throw a big pick to lose it for us or a 94 yarder that lights up the field, but I'm surely gonna enjoy the ride.

Favre has AMAZINGLY fast release, has won titles and is a great competitior. TM has amazing competitiveness and poor fundamentals- they arent meant to be in the same conversation. Over time a guy Favre (equal competitor, better release) will be much more successful than a guy like TM- Im not a fan of how either play, but thats just me

 

[Mavric]

How a player orients his shoulders when he throws- doesnt matter if he is on air or playing against the 49rs

I could list dozens of other basic fundamentals that have nothing to do with if you have a great defense or not across from you

In the ELite QB camps, QBs are evaluated on BASIC FUNDAMENTALS

This.

Fundamentals are not the same as gameplan/play execution. Two different steps.

True. But being able to APPLY your fundamentals during all different types of game situations is not the same for everybody.

 

[jmfb]

If you NEVER HAVE good fundamentals 100% of the time you wont be applying good fundamentals in real games

 

[Army_Allen]

How a player orients his shoulders when he throws- doesnt matter if he is on air or playing against the 49rs

I could list dozens of other basic fundamentals that have nothing to do with if you have a great defense or not across from you

In the ELite QB camps, QBs are evaluated on BASIC FUNDAMENTALS

That's why a crap load of top tier qb's don't pan out. Because when that heat comes crashing down on you and it's the 4th quarter of the biggest game of your career so far and it's between the guy who's clutch in the 4th or the guy with basic fundamentals, you take the guy who plays to win the game. That's why play style and love of the game wise, I find great similarities between Favre and Tmart. Both could win or lose you the game, but you know when they go out there, they were doing it because they wanted it more than any other guy out there and weren't gonna go down without at least swinging. That's why Favre is one of my favorites and most fun to watch and the same can be said with Taylor. I may not know whether we're going to win a game with him and I may not know if he's gonna throw a big pick to lose it for us or a 94 yarder that lights up the field, but I'm surely gonna enjoy the ride.

Favre has AMAZINGLY good fundamentals, has won titles and is a great competitior. TM has amazing competitiveness and poor fundamentals- they arent meant to be in the same conversation.

Favre did NOT have amazingly good fundamentals, he had a cannon arm but his fundamentals were anything but sound just watch a highlight video and you can see that (further proof fundamentals isn't ALL that makes you a great qb) and skill wise they aren't in the same ballpark. Tmart is an above average passer and an electrifying runner while Favre was an elusive tough sum b!^@h with a rocket and balls the size of two sperm whales. But they both in their way have that whatever it takes, all in mentality that let you know Favre was gonna throw a pick a game and that T mart could fumble any given run. But if you didn't think something great could happen in either of their hands at any given time for that same reason then idk what to say.

 

[kchusker_chris]

When you look at the QB camps- most of those kids pan out to be great ones, not all, but most

Mechanics matter, tech matters, how fast you get the ball out matters, footwork matters, elbow elevation matters

REALLY hard to significantly change a QBs mechs once he's out of HS-

I think you are using the term "most" and "great" very losely. Quite a few turn out to have decent careers I'll give you that, but I'd say it's below 50%. Looking through the Elite 11 rosters and it's maybe 4-5 out of the 11 each year.

What is noticeable about this top QBs is how many schools then go through. Mettenberger is on his third stop, Georgia, Butler CC, LSU. Cotton (2008) went to 4 colleges. In 2009, only 4 (Blake Bell, Tyler Bray, Austin Hinder, Devin Gardner) play for the school they signed with. Top QBs, while having good mechanics - have about a 1 in 4-5 chance of paying off for the school they sign with. They might be successful, but it's not very often for who they start with.

 

[BoDoesntKnow6]

Whoever doesn't start at QB next year (TA or JS) is going to transfer. TA is the next Cody Green. Stanton is Tebow 2.0

 

[jmfb]

When you look at the QB camps- most of those kids pan out to be great ones, not all, but most

Mechanics matter, tech matters, how fast you get the ball out matters, footwork matters, elbow elevation matters

REALLY hard to significantly change a QBs mechs once he's out of HS-

I think you are using the term "most" and "great" very losely. Quite a few turn out to have decent careers I'll give you that, but I'd say it's below 50%. Looking through the Elite 11 rosters and it's maybe 4-5 out of the 11 each year.

What is noticeable about this top QBs is how many schools then go through. Mettenberger is on his third stop, Georgia, Butler CC, LSU. Cotton (2008) went to 4 colleges. In 2009, only 4 (Blake Bell, Tyler Bray, Austin Hinder, Devin Gardner) play for the school they signed with. Top QBs, while having good mechanics - have about a 1 in 4-5 chance of paying off for the school they sign with. They might be successful, but it's not very often for who they start with.

I changed it to good, must have been right as you posted.

The highly rated QBs go to highly rated schools, usually with very strong QBs in place. Good players are going to find a way to get on the field and other schools are waiting with open arms.

Look what guys like Mallet and Sneed did after transferring from Michigan and Texas- worked well for them, NFLers now, others as well.

Im VERY doubtfull over the long haul only 20% of these guys dont pan out.

Seems to be working out for Mettenberger, why does it matter where they end up at?

How many NON elite 11 kids have we had on the roster that didnt work out? Im guessing its a lot lower % than the kids who were on it.

Same goes for the recruiting services, they get a lot of bad press, they miss on a few kids- it's expected

But when you look at the teams that have had the higher rankings OR compare NFL players- their chance of being an NFL player as a 5 star or 4 star vs 3,2,1 or none. The numbers are mindboggling. Im sad to say, those numbers dont lie- wish they did but over time and large sample size, they dont.

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

Whoever doesn't start at QB next year (TA or JS) is going to transfer. TA is the next Cody Green. Stanton is Tebow 2.0

 

[Enhance]

Favre absolutely did not have amazingly good fundamentals. He had good fundamentals, but they weren't amazingly good.

I see where you're coming from jmfb - fundamentals are extremely important, but they don't tell the whole story or even most of the story. They're just one part of an entire formula, which I think you would agree with. If fundamentals were such a big deal, you'd see only the most fundamentally savvy winning games, and that doesn't happen. There's even more parody with this at the college level, but it's also present in the NFL. How many fundamentally sound quarterbacks has Michael Vick outlasted? Dozens. Or how about the NFL careers of Vince Young v. Matt Leinart? Young made it to a pro bowl, although, both were admittedly cut from NFL teams now. Leinart, though possessing better fundamentals, had a relatively poor NFL career.

 

[jmfb]

I liked Favres release- one of the best. Hated some of his footwork

I dont follow the NFL- too busy and boring IMO. I dont think Ive ever even seen Vick play since his days at VT.

There he was a Running QB for a team that was great defensively and on special teams- about all I remember about him.

But I do know all the greats I hear mentioned and watch some clips on them- their fundys are very strong: Joe Montana, John ELway, Peyton Manning

Quite frankly again, Im not an NFL guy or fan.

 

[Enhance]

That's fair - the greats do have very good fundamentals. Even though you're not an NFL fan, there are plenty of quarterbacks that have won one or multiple super bowls despite being less fundamentally savvy. If you can build a good team around the QB, you don't need the QB to do as much. Ben Roethlisberger, QB for the Pittsburgh Steelers, isn't one of the best QB's in the country, in terms of fundamentals and skills, but he's won two super bowls. Eli Manning - not as good as his brother, but has one more championship ring.

I don't think you have to be fundamentally great to be a good quarterback and win big games. Vince Young's college tape is evidence of that, so is Frazier's, so is Tim Tebow's... the list goes on.

 

[jmfb]

How a player orients his shoulders when he throws- doesnt matter if he is on air or playing against the 49rs

I could list dozens of other basic fundamentals that have nothing to do with if you have a great defense or not across from you

In the ELite QB camps, QBs are evaluated on BASIC FUNDAMENTALS

This.

Fundamentals are not the same as gameplan/play execution. Two different steps.

jmfb, I am curious what your opinion on Tommy's high throws are. I feel like it was a combination of misjudging the wind and being a little "amped up" early on. I do not feel like he is not stepping thru because of the knee, I think he follows thru fine unless not allowed to because of pressure. I am not a QB coach, so I want to hear your opinion.

Im sure the wind had something to do with it.

As you know the wind is very weird there, its like the Bermuda triangle the way it swirls there when its windy like it was last game.

Part of it is he didnt have room to step through on several of the throws, very tight. I havent studied it, but on the replays several were like that.

Without watching the film I cant say

The usual culprits are too high a release point, elbow too low, elbow not leading the throw

IMO this guy is the absolute best QB coach in the country, Ive heard him speak and do clinics several times

Some really good info on QB fundamentals:

http://smartfootball...throwing-motion