Not a TM Bashing

[lo country]

Here is the real question. Regardless of stats, based on game performance alone, where would Martinez rank in Husker lore? With the game on the line, regardless of what line he has to play with, surrounding cast, would you want him in over say Humm, Feragamo, Frasier, Crouch, Frost, Barringer, Lord etc.....? Stats are great, but so are the other things ie ability to make something out of nothing, ability to put the team on his back, ability to juke, make the tough 3rd and 2 etc..... For me, Martinez would not be in my top 5.

Great top end speed and first step, but other than that, not much more. The staff has made him into a game manager. That is great for a guy with pocket presence, an accurate arm and a guy who can progress through reads and scramble when needed. He is definitely improving in these areas, but part of me thinks, without a dedicated QB coach, Martinez has peaked. He will get us some wins we should have, but IMHO, doesn't have the tools yet to get us the tough wins (OSU last and OSU this year withstanding).

Much has been made of his completion percentage vs previous QB's. IMO, it is not so much the completion percentages, but the accuracy. On Crouch, Frost etc....I think their passes were delivered much more accurately allowing for YAC and the ability of the receiver to make plays. Does Martinez throw as catchable or accurate ball or does he "get it there". Many of his catches are circus catches. In defense of the receivers repetition makes all the difference. I would bet that almost every ball Martinez throws comes out and gets there differently. The receivers job is to catch, but run the same route 50 times and the ball appears 50 different places. That makes it hard.

Martinez is progressing, but without a dedicated coach to help with the fundamentals of pocket presence, reads etc it is a moot point. Michicken really showed how he missed reads and lanes. The line blocked one way and he went into the pursuit. This is his second season and about 16th game he has started. Making reads should not be a problem this far into his career.

 

[HuskerNMO]

Check out Martinez's first two years compared to some other bum quarterbacks that used to play for Nebraska.

Good post!

Then, if one could quantify and add in Crouch's & especially Frazier's MASSIVELY better Olines, better OC (TO) & reliable wrs who caught the ball. Heh, of course this won't change anybody's mind but numbers don't lie.

I don't think this stat works. We were an option team then. I think total team offense is the only to compare. Plus, where's the fumble category and Tommie started in the Iowa State game- the first or second week of November of his freshman year. TMart started in the first game of his freshman year. I don't remember when crouch started

98 Season

Louisiana Tech- Newcombe

UAB- Crouch

Cal- Crouch

Washington- Newcombe

OSU- Newcombe

A&M- Newcombe

Kansas- Newcombe

Missouri- Newcombe

Texas- Christo (pulled for Crouch)

Iowa State- Crouch

KSU- Crouch

Colorado- Crouch

Arizona- Crouch

1999

Newcombe started the first two, Crouch started the last 10

 

[3rd and long]

You know there an awfull lot of people citing TM's being a sophmore as a reason for whatever they want to list, but no one is giving Turner any latitude on his blocking due to his age. I know blocking and playing QB are worlds apart, but remeber Turner is freshman who most likely as never blocked any one at any time in his career. And good blocking is a skill also, it takes time to learn how to do it effecitively, and at his size, not get killed while doing it. Like Knapplc says, you try to avoid putting him into situations where his getting an effective block is instrumental to the effectiveness of the play. If at some point he gets a block downfield that springs a ball carrier for an extra few yards, bonus, but don't rely on him at the point of attack.

As to TM (and I was as critical of him as anyone early on), I think he has made tremendous strides in managing the game. I love that he has shown a little pocket presence and has stepped up into the pocket (on the rare occasion when there is one), kept his eyes downfield, and most importantly, found that dumpoff guy. If he improves as much this offseason as the did during this season, he really could be something special.

I don't think though that he has ever been elusive. He's rarely made a defender miss out in space. His game to me is his explosive speed to the edge and it appears to me that defenses are taking away that straight sprint to the edge. I think if you look back at most of his long runs, he was rarely even touched. He just hit the corner so fast that he was gone before anyone really had a chance to make a play on him. And for whatever reason, I don't think he does look quite as explosive this year, it's not two steps and top speed. Still pretty effective though if he has a little daylight.

 

[HuskerNMO]

I think the reason we've seen less Turner is because of Turner. I believe it was his first play he was into the game he totally whiffs on a block and our runner gets blown up. This is why we've seen little of him the past few weeks. You can possess all the athletic ability in the World, but if you don't do your job then ride the pine.

But the simple answer to that is, "Hey Offensive Coordinator, don't expect your 6'1", 175lb wide receiver to block."

I saw Jamal again last night. If he's 6'1" then I'm 6'7". He probably weighs about a buck-eighty, and that's generous. The guy simply isn't a blocker. He's not built for it, he's not good at it, and putting him in situations where you need him to make a critical block on a run is stupid, especially when you have Brandon Kinnie and Quincy Enunwa on your roster.

Turner has game-changing speed and moves, but we seem unwilling or incapable of putting him in situations where he can affect the game. That is a failure on Beck's part, not Turner's.

You didn't recruit Jamal Turner to level DBs on Option plays. You recruited him so that, when you get him the ball in space, he runs and runs and runs. So frickin' DO THAT, Beck.

Of course you also have Kenny Bell, who is listed at the exact same 6'1 180 as Turner and he is magically able to make blocks and lock onto his man.

Nobody is asking Jamal to level DB's, blocking on the edge doesn't require tons of physical strength, all it takes is effort to run towards your man who is backpeddling, get your hands on him and keep him occupied for 4-6 seconds. If Bell and Marlowe can do it, so can Jamal.

Watch this video and you will see Kenny getting his man, and Marlowe coming down and pinning the edge. Turner is just as capable physically as these two to make those blocks, it comes down to effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnep...c4?hd=1&t=6m22s

In fact watch that whole video, it's every offensive snap for the Huskers agaisnt Michigan, I think it shows poor line play and very poor decision making by Taylor in the game, picking the wrong lanes, happy feet in the pocket, poor reads in the passing game.

If Jamal is too lazy to block, causes substitution penalties, gives half effort on routes what about that would make you trust that he would protect the ball and make the right play?

If you have two guys in the office, one who's a really smart guy, but gives about 50-60% effort do you keep rewarding him? When a big project comes along do you give it to him or do you trust someone who may not be as talented, but you know will give the effort and do things the way they should be done?

And if we're insisting on putting the best players on the field in situations, why not pull Martinez on third and long and obvious passing situations? It's been obvious for 2 years that isn't his strong point, and Carnes or Kellog would likely be better in those situations, so why is Taylor out there? Why aren't you clamoring for the guy who throws the ball the best when we have to pass?

 

[krc1995]

I'm thinking a points per play might be a good statistic to gauge the QB. It would allow for the differences in playing time and look at offensive production as a whole.

 

[HuskerNMO]

You know there an awfull lot of people citing TM's being a sophmore as a reason for whatever they want to list, but no one is giving Turner any latitude on his blocking due to his age. I know blocking and playing QB are worlds apart, but remeber Turner is freshman who most likely as never blocked any one at any time in his career. And good blocking is a skill also, it takes time to learn how to do it effecitively, and at his size, not get killed while doing it. Like Knapplc says, you try to avoid putting him into situations where his getting an effective block is instrumental to the effectiveness of the play. If at some point he gets a block downfield that springs a ball carrier for an extra few yards, bonus, but don't rely on him at the point of attack.

As to TM (and I was as critical of him as anyone early on), I think he has made tremendous strides in managing the game. I love that he has shown a little pocket presence and has stepped up into the pocket (on the rare occasion when there is one), kept his eyes downfield, and most importantly, found that dumpoff guy. If he improves as much this offseason as the did during this season, he really could be something special.

I don't think though that he has ever been elusive. He's rarely made a defender miss out in space. His game to me is his explosive speed to the edge and it appears to me that defenses are taking away that straight sprint to the edge. I think if you look back at most of his long runs, he was rarely even touched. He just hit the corner so fast that he was gone before anyone really had a chance to make a play on him. And for whatever reason, I don't think he does look quite as explosive this year, it's not two steps and top speed. Still pretty effective though if he has a little daylight.

Taylor ran well early last year, when teams rarely hit him and he rarely had any real athletes on the opposing D. Opposing teams have commented that if you hit Taylor he starts to get a little apprehensive, he doesn't like to be hit. Taylor is spending so much time worrying about getting hit and being knocked out (also coached that way) that he doesn't commit to his lane or run all out.

I don't like Taylor as our quarterback, but with that said, up until the Michigan game he was making strides as a quarterback and looked very good at times, but when the poo hit the fan against Michigan he was back to confused, over-thinking and poorly executing Taylor. It was painful to watch him on Saturday along with our o-line that was completely lost with what Michigan was doing with their blitz packages.

 

[majech]

Lord's numbers, quite the running back... He didn't start until he was a Junior so his Junior/Senior numbers are here. For all of the talk about how bad Taylor's throwing motion is, he is much better at completing passes than past QBs. I don't think most of us remember how truly awful the QBs used to be at passing.

Imo, Tommie Frazier was the greatest QB we've had. In his Fresh/Soph seasons he passed or ran the ball 540 times while accounting for 41 TD's and 9 Int's. Tmart, who would not be in my top 10 QB's, passed or ran the ball 776 times while accounting for 42 TD's and 14 Int's. I'm not intended to bash TMart at all, but I think a huge problem with our offensive philosophy is that we use TMart way too much. His weaknesses are exposed much more as a result and teams are able to game plan out his strengths much more. It was very difficult for team to take Frazier out of the game as we were using other weapons.

I think we'd be much better served if we didn't base our offense around TMart and used him more as an addition to the offense.

 

[knapplc]

I don't like Taylor as our quarterback, but with that said, up until the Michigan game he was making strides as a quarterback and looked very good at times, but when the poo hit the fan against Michigan he was back to confused, over-thinking and poorly executing Taylor. It was painful to watch him on Saturday along with our o-line that was completely lost with what Michigan was doing with their blitz packages.

Singling Martinez out against Michigan makes about as much sense as singling anyone else out in that offensive meltdown. It wasn't ONLY Martinez' fault that we failed against Michigan. It was systemic, from Beck down to the last guy on the travel roster.

 

[skersfan]

Looking at the stats, he is the best of the four by a landslide. These problems are not just Taylor's, there are enough to go around and it starts at the top. I am still in amazement that the back ups hardly ever play.

 

[lo country]

Looking at the stats, he is the best of the four by a landslide. These problems are not just Taylor's, there are enough to go around and it starts at the top. I am still in amazement that the back ups hardly ever play.

That's the thing. Take away his stats and ask yourself with the game on the line would you want him as your QB? Would you even have him in your top 5 Husker QB's of all time? Without a dedicated QB coach to teach him QB fundamentals ie pocket presence, progressing reads, vision etc.....what you see is what you get.

He is incredibly fast, but what else? He is becoming much better in game management ie throwing the ball way, check downs, but is not mobile, misses reads, doesn't have good vision etc...... I am unsure if he has reached his potential. I truly hope he improves as Bo seems to plan o ave him strt the next two years. To truly reach the next level for him, he needs a lot of help. in year two, manager wise big impovement. Qb wise not so much.

 

[HuskerNMO]

I don't like Taylor as our quarterback, but with that said, up until the Michigan game he was making strides as a quarterback and looked very good at times, but when the poo hit the fan against Michigan he was back to confused, over-thinking and poorly executing Taylor. It was painful to watch him on Saturday along with our o-line that was completely lost with what Michigan was doing with their blitz packages.

Singling Martinez out against Michigan makes about as much sense as singling anyone else out in that offensive meltdown. It wasn't ONLY Martinez' fault that we failed against Michigan. It was systemic, from Beck down to the last guy on the travel roster.

Who was singling out Taylor? I never said he was the reason we lost, and also mentioned the o-line. Anyone who can go back and watch that game film can easily see Taylor played one of his worst games.

 

[nhuskers5]

He is a freaking Sophomore. I don't care who you are 99% of all sophomores are still developing. Look at all of the other "greatest qb in college history".

was going to call you out on the Tim Tebow thing - since he won the Heisman as a sophomore...but looks like you edited.

The sophomore thing gets old by the way...he's still developing but there are plenty of young QBs that are very successfull in CFB. See k-state 2011.

Klein is a redshirt junior, so he has a year on TM, and I honestly think that Taylor is a better passer at this point than Klein. Klein's 6'5", which helps him in the redzone. That's the only difference between the two

 

[TXHSKR]

For not being a TM bashing it sure isn't full of compliments. To quote Coach Bo, "You point your finger at others....but your thumb points back to you." It wasn't one guy with problems, it was a group of players with problems.

To many dropped balls, turnovers, and no momentum killed the last game. I think that we open up they playbook for Iowa, and get some rotation to stay fresh we can put points on the board.

ower

 

[kchusker_chris]

To quote Coach Bo, "You point your finger at others....but your thumb points back to you."

Whenever I point my finger my thumb goes in relatively the same direction as my finger. In fact I tried numerious ways of pointing my finger directly away from me, but keeping my thumb pointed towards my body. Almost impossible.

Perhaps this is why Taylors throwing motion is so bad? Bo just doesn't understand the limitations of the human body.

 

[knapplc]

I don't like Taylor as our quarterback, but with that said, up until the Michigan game he was making strides as a quarterback and looked very good at times, but when the poo hit the fan against Michigan he was back to confused, over-thinking and poorly executing Taylor. It was painful to watch him on Saturday along with our o-line that was completely lost with what Michigan was doing with their blitz packages.

Singling Martinez out against Michigan makes about as much sense as singling anyone else out in that offensive meltdown. It wasn't ONLY Martinez' fault that we failed against Michigan. It was systemic, from Beck down to the last guy on the travel roster.

Who was singling out Taylor? I never said he was the reason we lost, and also mentioned the o-line. Anyone who can go back and watch that game film can easily see Taylor played one of his worst games.

Well, for one, you. You just did it again - not that it's egregious or you're being unfair to him, it's more about this thread. I understand it's in the context of the conversation, but we're perpetuating a myth to talk solely about Martinez after last game. I recognize that I'm contributing to that myth by replying to this thread, too. The irony is not lost on me.