OK sure, I'll be the first....

[EbylHusker]

Martinez needs to be 100% to play. That's all I am concerned about. His effectiveness drops off at a truly alarming rate when he's injured. A 90% Martinez is really more like a 50% QB. If the turf toe is still lingering when our next game comes around (entirely possible), then someone else needs to start. It's just that simple.

That said, I hope he's 100% and able to play.

 

[clone]

Bo will start the best QB. (probably TMagic if he is healthy)

have a little faith.

We can only hope, however there is part of me that thinks Bo is Loyal to a fault with coaches as well as with TM.

Bo wants to win! Its in his blood. He'll play the best players.

 

[clone]

Martinez, without question.* He's far from a natural or pretty thrower but what exactly are we complaining about? His 66% completion rate? Or his 9/1 TD/INT ratio? He's got the experience, he's the senior captain, for crying outloud.

I'm glad that Armstrong looked so good, but good lord, put it in perspective. That was a BAD FCS defense. I read that they ranked 100something in the FCS in pass defense. That's FCS schools only. It'd have been appalling if we didn't shred them. Armstrong made some pretty throws and is clearly a natural running the option, but he's our quarterback for next year, end of story.

*Assuming TMart is legitimately at 100% or at least close it enough it makes no matter.

Exactly. Playing an FCS school at home, Armstrong hasn't faced adversity yet. Tmagic has. Many times.

 

[jmfb]

Martinez, without question.* He's far from a natural or pretty thrower but what exactly are we complaining about? His 66% completion rate? Or his 9/1 TD/INT ratio? He's got the experience, he's the senior captain, for crying outloud.

I'm glad that Armstrong looked so good, but good lord, put it in perspective. That was a BAD FCS defense. I read that they ranked 100something in the FCS in pass defense. That's FCS schools only. It'd have been appalling if we didn't shred them. Armstrong made some pretty throws and is clearly a natural running the option, but he's our quarterback for next year, end of story.

*Assuming TMart is legitimately at 100% or at least close it enough it makes no matter.

Exactly. Playing an FCS school at home, Armstrong hasn't faced adversity yet. Tmagic has. Many times.

And how did that work out against the better teams?

 

[Whistlebritches]

If your only reason for posting is my verbage, wouldn't you be better served putting your head back in the sand where it so often is?

Sure, TA has some things to work on, but he threw just as well as RKIII statistically speaking (including two dropped TD passes) and brings more to the table athletically. Whatever mechanical differences exist between the two are moot.

Poor mechanics is why Talyor is not a very good passer and are a valid criticism. However, I don't see why it's being argued when RK3 is a senior who won't be with the program next year.

I never said poor mechanics are an invalid criticism. But, what "loft" is being critiqued here? Two deep passes on the money that were dropped? TA's sideline passes to both Enunwa and Abdullah early in the game? Burtch's TD pass? All five of those throws had to have touch on them and couldn't just be slung in there like a rocket. I guess I'm curious as to what throws TA didn't put enough force, power, whatever you want to call it, behind. I mean, if we're curious about his arm strength, rewatch some of his high school highlights - dude has an arm and made some very tough across the field throws with a lot of velocity.

As far as his footwork, I didn't notice any back foot throws in the highlights, but I'll go back and rewatch his throws again real time. And in terms of "broadcasting" throws, I think TA does have some room to improve. I saw him go through progressions a few times, but there were some other times he eyed his primary the whole way. This isn't a big issue for me though because as he grows up and gets more experienced, he'll get more comfortable going through his progressions. RKIII has four more years of experience on him, after all.

Point is - they had similar days passing the football, statistically speaking, but the way some were talking about TA's mechanics you'd think there were another first year starting Taylor Martinez out there. That may not have been the intention, but I'm obviously not the only one who took it that way. TA looked pretty far beyond Martinez at this point in Martinez' career in terms of throwing the football. I'd agree RKIII is the better passer, but TA isn't far behind, at least in my book.

I agree on all points. I may have stated my position poorly but I thought TA had an excellent day throwing the ball except for the one pass into the endzone.

If RK3 were a sophomore or junior I could understand the talk about starting him over TA but he's a senior who is done after this season. We're not wasting TA's eligibility by playing him and it would be great for him to get some real game experience. TA is most likely the future of the program and is clearly better than an injured Taylor or a Taylor who won't run the ball.

 

[jmfb]

Even if their numbers are accurate (and I'd like to check them when I have the time)... so?

Martinez isn't a great passer. Nobody here is making that claim. He throws a decent long ball, but his forte is the shorter pass. Teams win championships with a short passing game. Who cares if he's not proficient at throwing passes past 15 yards last year?

OK another try :

You dont win championships when the DC knows you have less than 1 in 6 to 1 in 10 chance of completing a pass greater than 15 yards in the air

Look at Alabama and Oregons numbers- Championship level teams and compare their numbers to ours in passes greater than 15 yards

That MAY be why some of the better teams just shut us down cold- they either dont bother covering the deep pass or they just let us self destruct trying to be perfect dinking and dunking ourselves down the field.

THIS TEAM with Martinez at the helm cant win dinking and dunking- too many sacks, fumbles, penalties to make that work.

So Martinez isnt a great passer, who cares?

Who cares if he cant complete many passes past 15 yards?

DCs know that TM cant consistently threaten the entire field, they scheme to stop

 

[knapplc]

Even if their numbers are accurate (and I'd like to check them when I have the time)... so?

Martinez isn't a great passer. Nobody here is making that claim. He throws a decent long ball, but his forte is the shorter pass. Teams win championships with a short passing game. Who cares if he's not proficient at throwing passes past 15 yards last year?

OK another try :

You dont win championships when the DC knows you have less than 1 in 6 to 1 in 10 chance of completing a pass greater than 15 yards in the air

Look at Alabama and Oregons numbers- Championship level teams and compare their numbers to ours in passes greater than 15 yards

That MAY be why some of the better teams just shut us down cold- they either dont bother covering the deep pass or they just let us self destruct trying to be perfect dinking and dunking ourselves down the field.

THIS TEAM with Martinez at the helm cant win dinking and dunking- too many sacks, fumbles, penalties to make that work.

So Martinez isnt a great passer, who cares?

Who cares if he cant complete many passes past 15 yards?

DCs know that TM cant consistently threaten the entire field, they scheme to stop

Martinez has flaws but this hyperbole doesn't do anyone any good.

Joe Montana and Steve Young both won Super Bowls without a vertical passing game. Trent Dilfer did the same.

Harping on Martinez' flaws as THE REASON we don't win against better teams (a patently false claim) ignores the plethora of flaws throughout this team.

Martinez isn't accomplished throwing long passes. That MAY be why some of the better teams just shut us down cold.

Or it MAY be the fact that our O Line doesn't hold blocks.

Or it MAY be the fact that we often miss blocking assignments altogether.

Or it MAY be the fact that we have a starting RB who fumbles at terribly inopportune times.

Or it MAY be the fact that our receivers drop passes that hit them in the hands.

Or it MAY be the fact that our receivers don't block even remotely as well as they should.

Or it MAY be the fact that our Offensive Coordinator has his head in his a$$ half the time.

Or it MAY be the fact that our defense... well, I don't have time to list the 100 flaws our defense exhibits on a regular basis.

I get it - you don't like Martinez. I agree with you that he has flaws. But no QB we've had in the past 50 years could lead this team to better results with the myriad problems the rest of the team has. It's nuts to think that Martinez is the reason we've lost these games. He's the reason we won more often than the reason we lose.

 

[clone]

Martinez, without question.* He's far from a natural or pretty thrower but what exactly are we complaining about? His 66% completion rate? Or his 9/1 TD/INT ratio? He's got the experience, he's the senior captain, for crying outloud.

I'm glad that Armstrong looked so good, but good lord, put it in perspective. That was a BAD FCS defense. I read that they ranked 100something in the FCS in pass defense. That's FCS schools only. It'd have been appalling if we didn't shred them. Armstrong made some pretty throws and is clearly a natural running the option, but he's our quarterback for next year, end of story.

*Assuming TMart is legitimately at 100% or at least close it enough it makes no matter.

Exactly. Playing an FCS school at home, Armstrong hasn't faced adversity yet. Tmagic has. Many times.

And how did that work out against the better teams?

Really?

I'm going to go with this:

Not as well against better teams as against lesser teams.

Common sense isn't so common anymore.

All QBs will perform better against worse teams than better teams.

Bo knows football, I'm going to say that the backups are backups for a reason.

This staff WANTS TO WIN GAMES! The coaches will field the best players. If he can go, they will play the proven Tmagic, if he is injured, then they'll play the best backup.

 

[Hunter94]

Martinez, without question.* He's far from a natural or pretty thrower but what exactly are we complaining about? His 66% completion rate? Or his 9/1 TD/INT ratio? He's got the experience, he's the senior captain, for crying outloud.

I'm glad that Armstrong looked so good, but good lord, put it in perspective. That was a BAD FCS defense. I read that they ranked 100something in the FCS in pass defense. That's FCS schools only. It'd have been appalling if we didn't shred them. Armstrong made some pretty throws and is clearly a natural running the option, but he's our quarterback for next year, end of story.

*Assuming TMart is legitimately at 100% or at least close it enough it makes no matter.

Exactly. Playing an FCS school at home, Armstrong hasn't faced adversity yet. Tmagic has. Many times.

And how did that work out against the better teams?

Really?

I'm going to go with this:

Not as well against better teams as against lesser teams.

Common sense isn't so common anymore.

All QBs will perform better against worse teams than better teams.

Bo knows football, I'm going to say that the backups are backups for a reason.

This staff WANTS TO WIN GAMES! The coaches will field the best players. If he can go, they will play the proven Tmagic, if he is injured, then they'll play the best backup.

well, where were you in the past when Bo put a hobbled TM in the game....that was stupid and stubborn on Pelini's part...really dumb.

 

[jmfb]

Even if their numbers are accurate (and I'd like to check them when I have the time)... so?

Martinez isn't a great passer. Nobody here is making that claim. He throws a decent long ball, but his forte is the shorter pass. Teams win championships with a short passing game. Who cares if he's not proficient at throwing passes past 15 yards last year?

OK another try :

You dont win championships when the DC knows you have less than 1 in 6 to 1 in 10 chance of completing a pass greater than 15 yards in the air

Look at Alabama and Oregons numbers- Championship level teams and compare their numbers to ours in passes greater than 15 yards

That MAY be why some of the better teams just shut us down cold- they either dont bother covering the deep pass or they just let us self destruct trying to be perfect dinking and dunking ourselves down the field.

THIS TEAM with Martinez at the helm cant win dinking and dunking- too many sacks, fumbles, penalties to make that work.

So Martinez isnt a great passer, who cares?

Who cares if he cant complete many passes past 15 yards?

DCs know that TM cant consistently threaten the entire field, they scheme to stop

Joe Montana and Steve Young both won Super Bowls without a vertical passing game. Trent Dilfer did the same.

This isnt the NFL- this is College Football- look at the teams who have won titles. THEY DONT have completion % of 10-16% on passes greater than 15 yards

All 3 of them could threaten and complete balls thrown deeper than 15 yards.

Harping on Martinez' flaws as THE REASON we don't win against better teams (a patently false claim) ignores the plethora of flaws throughout this team.

Martinez isn't accomplished throwing long passes. That MAY be why some of the better teams just shut us down cold.

Or it MAY be the fact that our O Line doesn't hold blocks.

Partly true, but Martinez doesnt step up into the pocket, he has awful pocket awareness, he doesnt get to his reads quickly, zeros in on 1 receiver most of the time, he is FAST when he isnt hurt, but isnt good laterally hence his usual one move of trying to run backkwards or outside to outrun the defensive end and usually gettting either sacked or run out of bounds.

Or it MAY be the fact that we often miss blocking assignments altogether.

See same as above, the limited lateral mobility and ability to make people miss with anything but outrunning them, doesnt help.

Or it MAY be the fact that we have a starting RB who fumbles at terribly inopportune times.

If we are going this route, then we need to add in TM has led the NCAA in fumbles the last 3 years in a row

Or it MAY be the fact that our receivers drop passes that hit them in the hands.

Most people feel our receiving group is the best we may have had in decades- but they DID drop 2 TD passes by TA- that would have made his numbers look better

Or it MAY be the fact that our receivers don't block even remotely as well as they should.

Our receivers blocking isnt the big difference maker right now

Or it MAY be the fact that our Offensive Coordinator has his head in his a$$ half the time.

He seems to be wanting to do too much, I have to agree with you here. Could be a function of Beck thinking a 5th year Senior with 4 years starting can handle a lot. Or it could be he is limited in his play calling by what Martinez can actually consistently do.

Or it MAY be the fact that our defense... well, I don't have time to list the 100 flaws our defense exhibits on a regular basis.

Agreed.

I get it - you don't like Martinez. I agree with you that he has flaws. But no QB we've had in the past 50 years could lead this team to better results with the myriad problems the rest of the team has. It's nuts to think that Martinez is the reason we've lost these games. He's the reason we won more often than the reason we lose.

So you think even Tommie Frazier, Turner Gill, Scot Frost wouldnt have been able to have won more games than we have with TM? Really?

I never said Martinez is the sole reason we lost those games, he has been a major contributor. Thanks to his NCAA leading fumble issues not to mention the rest of his flaws.

I LIKE Martinez as a person and love his heart. I just dont think he is the best person to be the starting QB right now. I will gladly be giving the kid a rousing standing ovation every time he's introduced.

 

[knapplc]

So you think even Tommie Frazier, Turner Gill, Scot Frost or even Joe Ganz wouldnt have been able to have won more games than we have? Really?

I never said Martinez is the sole reason we lost those games, he has been a major contributor. Thanks to his NCAA leading fumble issues not to mention the rest of his flaws.

I LIKE Martinez as a person and love his heart. I just dont think he is the best person to be the starting QB right now

No. This team is WAY too flawed for any of those players to fix. None of the quarterbacks you listed would do a thing to solve the problems we have on defense.

I'd trade all four of those QBs for a couple of Offensive Guards from the 80s & 90s. Those would go much further to fixing our problems than a new QB.

I'd trade all of those QBs and Guards for a couple of DE/LBs from those decades as well. That would go even further toward fixing the problems that plague these teams.

QB, under Martinez, has been good enough to win pretty much every single game the last two years. The reason we lose those games isn't Taylor Martinez.

 

[Chaddyboxer]

Did anyone else notice Armstrong down the field seeking out guys to block on --that one run-- ? I'd specify but I don't have the game in front of me, and I can't even remember the quarter or the play. But it stuck out as unusual that the QB was out there doing that. Old-school baller mentality right there.

Yeah, heard he drove a an opposing player to the sidelines during Kenny Bell's reverse I believe....Not sure. I gotta watch it myself....makes me all warm and fuzzy inside seeing that hehe.

 

[knapplc]

Did anyone else notice Armstrong down the field seeking out guys to block on --that one run-- ? I'd specify but I don't have the game in front of me, and I can't even remember the quarter or the play. But it stuck out as unusual that the QB was out there doing that. Old-school baller mentality right there.

Yeah, heard he drove a an opposing player to the sidelines during Kenny Bell's reverse I believe....Not sure. I gotta watch it myself....makes me all warm and fuzzy inside seeing that hehe.

I know nothing about Johnny Stanton, but I really, really like what I see out of Armstrong so far. If Stanton is good enough to push Armstrong, I think we're in good shape going forward at QB.

Throw in all our RBs, all our WRs, Cethan Carter at TE.... if we have even a competent O Line, this offense should be top-notch the next couple of years.

 

[jmfb]

So you think even Tommie Frazier, Turner Gill, Scot Frost or even Joe Ganz wouldnt have been able to have won more games than we have? Really?

I never said Martinez is the sole reason we lost those games, he has been a major contributor. Thanks to his NCAA leading fumble issues not to mention the rest of his flaws.

I LIKE Martinez as a person and love his heart. I just dont think he is the best person to be the starting QB right now

No. This team is WAY too flawed for any of those players to fix. None of the quarterbacks you listed would do a thing to solve the problems we have on defense.

I'd trade all four of those QBs for a couple of Offensive Guards from the 80s & 90s. Those would go much further to fixing our problems than a new QB.

I'd trade all of those QBs and Guards for a couple of DE/LBs from those decades as well. That would go even further toward fixing the problems that plague these teams.

QB, under Martinez, has been good enough to win pretty much every single game the last two years. The reason we lose those games isn't Taylor Martinez.

Changing the terms of the debate

You said "I get it - you don't like Martinez. I agree with you that he has flaws. But no QB we've had in the past 50 years could lead this team to better results "

So you in essence said TM is on par with Gill, Frost and Frazier. Im guessing, no I KNOW ANY of those guys at the helm would have led us to "better results"

Does NU need more than a QB, goodness yes. No one was saying our problems are solved by a change in QB, but the QB is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

But to equate TM to those 3 (Gill, Frazier, Frost) is silly IMO, he isnt in the same solar system as any of them.

 

[Chaddyboxer]

Did anyone else notice Armstrong down the field seeking out guys to block on --that one run-- ? I'd specify but I don't have the game in front of me, and I can't even remember the quarter or the play. But it stuck out as unusual that the QB was out there doing that. Old-school baller mentality right there.

Yeah, heard he drove a an opposing player to the sidelines during Kenny Bell's reverse I believe....Not sure. I gotta watch it myself....makes me all warm and fuzzy inside seeing that hehe.

I know nothing about Johnny Stanton, but I really, really like what I see out of Armstrong so far. If Stanton is good enough to push Armstrong, I think we're in good shape going forward at QB.

Throw in all our RBs, all our WRs, Cethan Carter at TE.... if we have even a competent O Line, this offense should be top-notch the next couple of years.

I've heard rumors that Stanton is looking HIGHLY impressive.......maybe even more so than Armstrong.

The dude is built like a brick-sh#t-house too. He already looks bigger than he was in high school.