Quarterback Competiton!

[Enhance]

Most people who think Martinez will start believe he will start because of the entire package. He makes the offense more dynamic than anyone else. At least last year, a lot of that had to do with his game breaking ability as a runner. But to come back and say, "Well, say he can't do that anymore, than what do you think of him?" is stupid and pointless. We could make up random hypothetical situations about anyone on the team.

That was kind of the point I tried to make earlier lol. I guess I just couldn't find the right words for it.

 

[knapplc]

What I find most humorous is that I have been banded together with the "Martinez Supporter" group. I am no more a Martinez supporter than I am a Cody Green or Brion Carnes or Kody Spano supporter. I am simply a realist, and I tend to spend most of my time countering arguments based on false logic.

I have maintained throughout that I want the best guy to start. It doesn't matter what his name is, if he can score TDs I want him.

 

[Saunders]

What I find most humorous is that I have been banded together with the "Martinez Supporter" group. I am no more a Martinez supporter than I am a Cody Green or Brion Carnes or Kody Spano supporter. I am simply a realist, and I tend to spend most of my time countering arguments based on false logic.

I have maintained throughout that I want the best guy to start. It doesn't matter what his name is, if he can score TDs I want him.

Couldn't have said it better Knappic. It's exactly how I feel. I tend to be a glass half full guy, and also one who tries to base their opinions on facts and logic. There's a lot we don't know about Taylor's improvement and recovery, and one spring game is not going to answer all the questions.

What I do know, is that there is one constant fact when it comes to Bo Pelini and Nebraska football. Bo will play the best players, and will sit guys if he doesn't feel they're playing the best at that position. We've seen it dozens of times. Bo has said that as of now, TM is the starter. That has to count for something.

I want the best guy to play, whether it's Taylor Martinez, Cody Green, Brion Carnes, Ron Kellogg, or Kody Spano.

 

[Saunders]

The last part is actually why I'm asking. I have no idea whether you, Saunders, or the other guys who believe in Taylor (note I do not mean this in a derogatory way) would fall into #1 or #2. Similarly, I bet you and Saunders would have put in me in #3, but I am tempted by #2.

Maybe I could attack it from another angle: Would the Taylor fans still be Taylor fans if, hypothetically speaking, you knew that those long runs were a thing of the past? In other words, take away the regular +50-yard runs, do you still buy into the Martinez Mystique?

If you say "no," then your support of Taylor depends on his ability to make those long runs with his feet. If you say "yes," then you believe there is more to him than his ability to make those long runs. And that was what I am trying to isolate, I guess.

I promise there isn't some "Aha!" thing waiting around the bend for those of you who answer that question.

knapplc can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe his point is that he has no idea about Martinez' recovery and neither do the rest of us. Therefore it's unfair to base any assumption.

And your hypothetical situation makes the argument kind of pointless because it is purely hypothetical. Hypothetically speaking how good would we be if Tom Osborne was still coaching? You can answer that question but it doesn't make for good argument unless you're just trying to have fun.

Personally I'm not sure it's fair to deal in hypotheticals in this type of situation unless you don't really want an honest answer.

I really think you guys are over-thinking this. It's pretty straight-forward:

What I am asking is whether those that think T-Magic is the best man for the job are saying that because of his supposed ability to break long runs on a regular basis, or whether it is mostly because of other aspects of his game (i.e., ability to lead the team, make critical throws, etc.).

All I'm looking for, really, is for those who think he's the guy, how much weight are you placing on his speed and ability to make long runs? 90%? 70%? 40%? It's really not hypothetical at all. When you evaluate Taylor, how much of his value to the team do you attribute to his ability to make those long runs? Simple. Boom. Done.

It certainly factors into the equation, but I'd rather see the Taylor that played against Okie light. He looked poised, made some really good throws, and still ran when he needed too. I tend to believe that Taylor will heal up over the summer, and show a progression in his QB abilities. Why? Call it the optimist in me. But if it becomes apparent that he can't get the job done, then by all means, bring on the next guy.

 

[knapplc]

You're wondering if the only reason people support him is because of the runs he put together early in his career that he may or may not be capable of from here out. Yes, many people want Martinez to start because of the runs he had. But I'm not one of those people and it's unfair to assume that's why people want Martinez.

If this is the point we're going after, I'm a bit confused. Who would raise their hand and say, "I do NOT want those runs from my team?" Take away the name involved and simply think about a player with that capability. Why wouldn't you want that?

If they can consistently light it up on the ground, especially from long distance, anyone who says they don't want that guy starting is a fool. Any player who can score from anywhere on the field on any given play, whether that's a QB, WR, RB, TE or OG (Fumblerooskie) is the guy I want starting.

What does the name on the jersey have to do with anything?

 

[Hujan]

Martinez is who he is because of his speed and the long runs he had early in his career. Not his arm, not his mechanics, not his pocket presence - none of that. Without those runs early in the year he's not the Martinez people remember today, and it's as simple as that.

Therefore we have to base our opinions on this - Martinez needs his legs to be an effective quarterback for our team. You can't fudge with a quarterback's mechanics this late in the game and I'm a firm believer that accuracy is tough to improve on - you either have it or you don't. Martinez needs to be at least somewhat capable of what he did early last year if he wants to be the starter.

All this said I still think there's a problem with the point you're trying to make. I'm not a Martinez supporter, but it's easy to see what you're getting at. You're wondering if the only reason people support him is because of the runs he put together early in his career that he may or may not be capable of from here out. Yes, many people want Martinez to start because of the runs he had. But I'm not one of those people and it's unfair to assume that's why people want Martinez.

I want the best quarterback for the team to start, regardless of the name or number on the jersey. I've been defending Martinez this off season because people have been using a redshirt freshman's spring game performance as a reason to knock Martinez around. And when you couple that with Martinez' nagging injuries and other questionable quarterback characteristics, it makes for good banter. I would argue several of the pro-Martinez guys aren't really pro-Martinez, they're just trying to point out that (right now) he's the most proven and best quarterback we have in front of a redshirt freshman that we know so little about.

I hope that answered your question.

I'll let it go, but the bolded parts say it all, IMO. You say there is a problem with point I'm trying to make, then accuse me of assuming that Martinez's ability to make long runs is why people want Martinez.

I AM FREAKING TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THAT IS THE REAL REASON WHY PEOPLE WANT MARTINEZ!!! I AM TRYING TO AVOID MAKING ASSUMPTIONS. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY QUESTION!!

And when I try to explore that, all I get is: "It's unfair to make hypotheticals." "Your question is stupid."

For the very reason you highlight, I think it's fair to ask guys how much weight they place on Martinez's ability to break those long runs. There is no agenda, there is no trick waiting around the bend. I am just geniunely curious.

As to the other points:

1) Yes, we all want to best guy to start. But some people have favorites that they would rather see. Even if Carnes and Martinez were both sophomores and both had a year of experience under the belt, my hypothesis is that some of you guys would be pulling for Martinez based on the allure of his running ability. So it makes me wonder how much that is true.

2) We are not bashing Martinez on the basis of Carnes' spring game performances. At all. The same criticisms you hear on this board you would have heard after A&M, the CCG, and the Holiday Bowl. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CARNES, and everything to do with deficiencies in Martinez's game.

The question is not "Is Carnes better than Martinez," the question is, "Is Martinez so lacking in the fundamental things you need to succeed as a QB that many QBs, including Carnes, would be better."

The reality here is that Martinez has had ZERO legitimate competition. Green and Lee were damn near worthless. Whether Carnes wins the Heisman or not, the spring game at least showed, in my mind, that he is not worthless. So then the question emerges: Although Martinez gets the nod compared to a pair of worthless QBs, does he still get the nod compared to a QB who is at least mediocre?

And that is the reality for a lot of Husker fans. We have so little faith in Martinez that we look to Carnes not because Carnes is god-like, but because he doesn't suck. You guys have continuously failed to grasp that subtle, but fundamental, difference.

 

[knapplc]

And that is the reality for a lot of Husker fans. We have so little faith in Martinez that we look to Carnes not because Carnes is god-like, but because he doesn't suck. You guys have continuously failed to grasp that subtle, but fundamental, difference.

This is the crux of the problem. Those of us saying "play the best player" are often caught in the wash of also saying, "You can't possibly know the (bold above) is true," therefore you believe we're advocating for Martinez.

It seems like every time someone says that we don't know anything about Carnes yet, and that the Spring Game taught us nothing, those who don't want Martinez don't hear a reasonable, logical statement, they hear, "I want Martinez." I've said over and over that I don't care whose name is on the jersey, I want the best player. How that translates into Martinez Fanboy nonsense is beyond me.

It is foolish not to play a guy who can break off a run for a TD on any given play. If that means I want Martinez to you, that's on you. What I'm saying is I don't care if that guy is Carnes, Green, Martinez, or whomever.

You keep repeating this question of "Why do you want Martinez." It's like you can't get down with the idea that it's not about Martinez, it's about the best player.

Probably a better question would be, why do you NOT want Martinez? You can't possibly have enough information right now to say he can't win, or won't be better than any other QB, or will still be injured, or will fail at critical times. There are sufficient caveats to every one of those points that make such a statement more a personal dislike than a fact-based conclusion.

Isn't it better to let them compete during Fall Camp and support whatever guy wins the job? That's what I'm going to do.

 

[The Dude]

All I'm going to say is this. I watched the Spring game DVD this weekend, and there was a night and day difference in receivers being open for Carnes and Kellogg vs Green and Martinez. There were alot of backups playing in the second half, when all the scoring happened.

This is a very good point. Let's be realistic, we aren't going to see many secondaries as good as the one Taylor saw in the spring game (if any). And we're not going to see many secondaries as bad as the one Brion saw in the spring game (if any).

 

[skersfan]

knapp,

You are a smart man, I just cannot understand that you do not grasp, that #2 is always better at Nebraska. We have dumb coaches that always put the worst at starter. They stay blind folded all year because they personally like the real #4 better than the current #2 there fore making #3 #1.

 

[Hunter94]

it's never too late to improve mechanics of a qb, hell, Tebow was working on his mechanics as an NFL player last year. the point is, if the coaches and or TM aren't trying to make him a better passer and improve his fundamentals, then he will never be a true dual threat type of guy...i am not saying he isn't working on his skill set in the off season, but we never heard that he was motivated to be a better passer, so what are any of us to think? jury still out..

 

[bshirt]

it's never too late to improve mechanics of a qb, hell, Tebow was working on his mechanics as an NFL player last year. the point is, if the coaches and or TM aren't trying to make him a better passer and improve his fundamentals, then he will never be a true dual threat type of guy...i am not saying he isn't working on his skill set in the off season, but we never heard that he was motivated to be a better passer, so what are any of us to think? jury still out..

what????

You really think the coaches are so outrageously stupid they would start a qb who isn't motivated to be a better passer? Based on what?

 

 

 

[Enhance]

it's never too late to improve mechanics of a qb, hell, Tebow was working on his mechanics as an NFL player last year. the point is, if the coaches and or TM aren't trying to make him a better passer and improve his fundamentals, then he will never be a true dual threat type of guy...i am not saying he isn't working on his skill set in the off season, but we never heard that he was motivated to be a better passer, so what are any of us to think? jury still out..

I think you might be reading a little too much into this. How many players at other positions talk about all the things they need to improve on? Besides, I could be mistaken, but I haven't heard many reporters ask Martinez what he thinks about his passing skills or all of the things he needs to improve on this year. Leadership was the big question this off season and everything else has just been water cooler banter.

The coaches know what players need to do to improve on. My 12 year old cousin said Martinez was a crappy passer during the bowl game. If he saw it, I'm sure the coaches did and I'm sure Martinez did.

 

[Hunter94]

it's never too late to improve mechanics of a qb, hell, Tebow was working on his mechanics as an NFL player last year. the point is, if the coaches and or TM aren't trying to make him a better passer and improve his fundamentals, then he will never be a true dual threat type of guy...i am not saying he isn't working on his skill set in the off season, but we never heard that he was motivated to be a better passer, so what are any of us to think? jury still out..

I think you might be reading a little too much into this. How many players at other positions talk about all the things they need to improve on? Besides, I could be mistaken, but I haven't heard many reporters ask Martinez what he thinks about his passing skills or all of the things he needs to improve on this year. Leadership was the big question this off season and everything else has just been water cooler banter.

The coaches know what players need to do to improve on. My 12 year old cousin said Martinez was a crappy passer during the bowl game. If he saw it, I'm sure the coaches did and I'm sure Martinez did.

well, i don't think Beck has the time or knowledge to make him better, so i sure hope he is working with someone on his skill set while he is hanging in cally this summer, i guess we'll never know?

 

[knapplc]

i don't think Beck has the time or knowledge to make him better

What gives you that impression?

 

[Hunter94]

i don't think Beck has the time or knowledge to make him better

What gives you that impression?

is Beck a qb coach? has he developed any qbs?