Danny Bateman
Active member
I guess when I said that, I meant more run of the mill Breitbart Republican than Trump-loving supporter. I figured the latter necessarily follows the first.
But good call. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Racism - It's a real thing.
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I guess when I said that, I meant more run of the mill Breitbart Republican than Trump-loving supporter. I figured the latter necessarily follows the first.
But good call. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Danny Bateman
Active member
I'm not sure if this is racist, but it's certainly profoundly stupid.
I'm getting really tired of my fellow white guys acting like pompous, victimized a-holes. But Trump's America has unleashed a whole new level of white folks looking around and saying "But what about MY problems?" Not in a "let's help everyone" kind of way, either. More like a "we've been forgotten & abused & we have to take back what's rightfully ours from other groups of people" kind of way.
I'm getting really tired of my fellow white guys acting like pompous, victimized a-holes. But Trump's America has unleashed a whole new level of white folks looking around and saying "But what about MY problems?" Not in a "let's help everyone" kind of way, either. More like a "we've been forgotten & abused & we have to take back what's rightfully ours from other groups of people" kind of way.
Landlord
Banned
^ all that is is a difference on whether or not identity politics or broad brush categorizing are good or bad. There's a popular wave of theory in center-right and libertarian esque camps that the problems to societal inequalities is a psychological one that's from the bottom up one person at a time, not a sociological culture-wide top-down one.
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BigRedBuster
Well-known member
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Danny Bateman
Active member
I get that. I think the debate about collective solutions vs. individualism is both valid & important to have.
The reason I don't subscribe too heavily to the individualist side of the debate is because it seems to me that the most eager Libertarian & individualist voices are typically people who strike me as being born on second or third base.
They don't typically acknowledge that we all start from different starting lines in life, which is a belief that I hold very deeply.
Of course lassiez faire individualism is a good deal for such folks. They have (and likely have had, throughout their lives) greater access to resources than others.
I'm probably broad-brushing a good deal here, but it's just how I view things. I think we should work on creating a level playing field for more people so the individualism part works more equitably, but that isn't a goal these folks would likely share.
Landlord
Banned
I agree with most of that sentiment, @Clifford Franklin. It's tough, though, because just because someone is born on 2nd base doesn't mean that their perspective on how people striking out at the plate can succeed is necessarily wrong.
An overly simplistic but useful way to think about the problem, I think, is that expecting success by working your a$$ off might not guarantee success if you're starting from a much less advantaged socio-context, but not working your a$$ off will certainly guarantee failure.
An overly simplistic but useful way to think about the problem, I think, is that expecting success by working your a$$ off might not guarantee success if you're starting from a much less advantaged socio-context, but not working your a$$ off will certainly guarantee failure.
Danny Bateman
Active member
Agreed. You're absolutely right that individual effort & drive to succeed is important. Particularly if you're one of those folks who is starting worse off because you've got to offset your inherent disadvantage.
I just the two groups could meet halfway. If the individualists wouldn't be so vehemently opposed to certain government programs that help level the playing field, I'd be way more receptive to their ideas about fostering personal responsibility & self-reliance. But they almost always push those ideas at the expense of programs that help disadvantaged people. I just don't get why people have to be so militant about it being an either-or situation.
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Nebfanatic
New member
What individualists don't consider is many people haven't been taught how to be an individual. Programs that level the playing field can teach people about self reliance. We don't teach taxes in school, personal finance isn't a requirement, no one teaches you about fostering creativity and developing a drive to succeed. If people aren't taught at home or at school how to succeed, they may have a hard time figuring it out.
BigRedBuster
Well-known member
There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't demand programs that allow people to level the playing field AND....expect people to have a certain level of motivation to actually do what it takes to support themselves and take personal responsibility to take advantage of those programs to better themselves. Too often excuses are made instead of actually going out and doing something to help yourself out.
I don't agree with this. In our small little class C1 school, kids have the opportunity to take accounting classes, entrepreneurship, art, music, wood working classes, welding classes, be involved in FCCLA, FBLA, speech, drama, FFA, sports....etc..... that covers personal finance, creativity, responsibility, work ethic.....etc. And....this is all with extreme budget cuts from the state.
Problem is, so many kids don't learn this AT HOME!!!!. A football coach can't instill work ethic and personal responsibility if the parents don't foster that. A band instructor or drama teacher can't foster creativity if the parents act like those activities are dumb and worthless.
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Nebfanatic
New member
Ehhh, I disagree with you. Maybe its the style things are taught in but school does a terrible job of teaching about real life problem solving and overcoming failure. They don't teach you about using your sexual energy in your creative endeavors or how to get into flow states where you let go of logic and create. They don't teach taxes(the single most atrocious diservice) or the power of positive thinking. These things are secrets to most for a reason, our education is failing in some way. I don't think the teachers are necissarily to blame, but I think we need to rethink how we teach our children.
BigRedBuster
Well-known member
Is it really the school system's job to teach people to use their "sexual energy"? Really???
Our kids are needing to compete globally against kids who are in school systems that do great in teaching math, science...etc. I believe THAT needs to be number one job of the school system.
I personally believe that, sure, our schools could be improved....always can be. But, our public school system is no where close to as bad as some people try to make it out to be. The US has a much much different attitude towards education from other countries. Our goal is to educate everyone. That isn't that way in countries like China where their goal is only to educate the top students.
Where we are failing is in our culture and families around our educational system. Every parent should expect nothing less than maximum effort from our kids in school and teach them to be respectable. If every kid would come to school well prepared to learn, it would be amazing what our school systems could do.
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Nebfanatic
New member
Why shouldn't we be teaching that? It is a huge part of everyones life. Oh yea lets let people educate themselves so they think smashing genitals with no protection is all their sexual energy is good for. Sexual energy is the lifeblood of genius. Why shouldn't we be teaching children to use their energy to achieve a higher frequency of thought rather than let them think physical expression is the only way to use their energy. I take it you haven't read the incredible book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Your not wrong in that we do a decent job at teaching things that can be measured by test scores and compared to the rest of the world, but what I am suggesting is maybe that isn't the best method to prepare our children for success going forward.
Nebfanatic
New member
And to bring this back around to racism, @BigRedBuster says its the parents responsibility to teach their kids alot of these things, and while I don't entirely disagree with that, its difficult when the government takes away the head of these families for generations. From slavery to mass incarceration, the US has always found ways to drive wedges between families in the African American community, then we blame the parents for not teaching their kids what they need to know.
BigRedBuster
Well-known member
And, I'm not saying reaching the highest level of thought isn't very important. We need to strive for that every chance we can.
However, I'm saying that's a cultural and family issue more than a school issue. My youngest son just graduated from HS. We have had many conversations about why he was successful in getting good grades, getting into the school he wants, getting the scholarship he wants...etc. You know what he says his friends do every night? They go home, sit in their rooms for 4-5 hours LITERALLY....and play Fortnight. Really? What the hell kind of parent even allows their kid to do that? I've told my son that I would be so friggen pissed off if he did that and he totally agrees with me.
THESE are the types of things that hold kids back from taking advantage of opportunities that are already available.
What if those kids were putting that much time into learning how to play the piano or painting a picture or creative photography....etc.? My son is really into hunting and fishing. So, he spends a lot of time creatively thinking about fishing and new ways to get better at it. No, it's not