Reported Sexual Assault at Armstrong's House Under Investigation

[Elf]

Well, that escalated quickly.

I think everyone that is reasonable understands that any guy that takes advantage of a woman while impaired is a dirt bag and he deserves everything he gets. Just because someone is drunk doesn't mean you can do what ever you want with them and expect to not have ramifications.

However, back in my college years, I can think of more than one situation where BOTH the guy and girl were drunk off their asses, all over each other at a party, went home and screwed like mad till passing out.....and....at least one of them really regretted it the next morning.

Now, in an effort to give the benefit of the doubt, I took Elf's comments to mean a situation like this. When drunk, the girl gives permission. When sober, she regrets it.

It is a very very touchy subject. Honestly, any guy is smart to steer very clear of a woman who is impaired due to a situation like this. Help her home, don't do anything, say good night and call her in the morning for a date if you are still interested.

Thank you, someone gets it.

I think many of us in our younger years partied with a little to much vigor at times and did things we later regretted. It doesn't necessarily mean the people we did them with took advantage of us. Obviously if the woman can barely stand up and is mumbling incoherently you shouldn't rip her clothes off and screw her brains out. And no one with an ounce of decency thinks that latter scenario is OK.

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

 

[Elf]

Not stating if I think anyone is guilty or not. I do have one question that if I heard it right I am not sure I understand.

The female mentioned that the rape happened between the hours of 2:30 sunday morning to 9:30 am. Why could she not narrow a time better down better than 7 hours?

If I misheard, please correct me.

It could have happened while she was asleep, then she woke up and figured out what happened. Or since they were at a party alcohol may have been involved.

I never buy that as an excuse. If you choose to drink then you need to understand that the things you do while under the influence may or may not be agreeable to you when you sober up, but it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions. (When I use the word you in this post, I don't necessarily mean you Moiraine.)

Elf, just no. Maybe the way she was dressed, "she was just asking for it" too? No.

If she says yes while drunk, or even because she was drunk, when she sobers up it doesn't become rape. And no I was not implying that by drinking that she was "asking for it".
*Edit* I've heard some information within the last 12 hours that leads me to believe this. That's all I'm saying.

You said "it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions". This is disgusting to hear, and honestly, if that is how you feel, I am ashamed for you.You are now saying that agreeing to sex while drunk gives the women no legal rights. However, consent cannot be given by someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless, including as a result of alcohol. You want consequences for actions, well don't sleep with someone who is drunk; otherwise, you can live with the consequences when they sober up.

I was going to say that I think that in the state of Nebraska having sex with an inebriated person ( drugs or booze) is considered to be sexual assault. I could have misunderstood that however.

If that is correct, I'm not so sure that i know too many people who haven't engaged in sex either while inebriated or with someone that was. Not that it makes it right.

As long as it's consensual, why is it wrong? Keep in mind there are varying levels of inebriation. There comes a point where consent is no longer possible, but prior to that, as long as consent is given, have at it and have a good time.

 

[knapplc]

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

At the risk of getting banned for reposting what has already been cleared out, let's just say there was liberal use of the term "dunderhead."

 

[Elf]

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

At the risk of getting banned for reposting what has already been cleared out, let's just say there was liberal use of the term "dunderhead."

That's what PMs are for.

 

[Elf]

Not stating if I think anyone is guilty or not. I do have one question that if I heard it right I am not sure I understand.

The female mentioned that the rape happened between the hours of 2:30 sunday morning to 9:30 am. Why could she not narrow a time better down better than 7 hours?

If I misheard, please correct me.

It could have happened while she was asleep, then she woke up and figured out what happened. Or since they were at a party alcohol may have been involved.

I never buy that as an excuse. If you choose to drink then you need to understand that the things you do while under the influence may or may not be agreeable to you when you sober up, but it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions. (When I use the word you in this post, I don't necessarily mean you Moiraine.)

Elf, just no. Maybe the way she was dressed, "she was just asking for it" too? No.

If she says yes while drunk, or even because she was drunk, when she sobers up it doesn't become rape. And no I was not implying that by drinking that she was "asking for it".
*Edit* I've heard some information within the last 12 hours that leads me to believe this. That's all I'm saying.

You said "it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions". This is disgusting to hear, and honestly, if that is how you feel, I am ashamed for you.
You are now saying that agreeing to sex while drunk gives the women no legal rights. However, consent cannot be given by someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless, including as a result of alcohol. You want consequences for actions, well don't sleep with someone who is drunk; otherwise, you can live with the consequences when they sober up.

Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol goes far beyond a choice to partake of sexual activities. We could list example after example of bad choices that are made while under the influence of alcohol and in the vast majority of cases we still hold those people accountable for their actions.
I think it goes without saying that someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless cannot give consent. These would be obvious exceptions to the above.

Oh, in regards to your last sentence, what happens when they are both drunk and make bad decisions, what then?

Simple, then both have legal rights. Of course, the woman may file for rape (which requires penetration) while the man may file for sexual assault.
Consequences for actions. You keep saying that, but clearly, you have a double standard in this situation, for whatever reason.

Where is my double standard?

"Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol". If you think they both drank, great. Both will live with the consequences of their actions following that choice. If you agree, what are we talking about?

That bolded part? That's a general statement that applies to everyone. Alcohol is a drug that affects our decision making process. If you drink enough, sooner or later you are going to make decisions you regret the next day. How do I know that? Been there, done that, not proud of it. I can't begin to count the number of people I've seen in those same shoes.

If YOU agree, then what are we talking about? Remember, you challenged me in this thread, not the other way around. And for the record, I think its far more likely that everyone was drinking than one person taking advantage of a drunk girl.

 

[Red Dead Redemption]

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

At the risk of getting banned for reposting what has already been cleared out, let's just say there was liberal use of the term "dunderhead."

Isn't that his post in the woodshed?

 

[Elf]

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

At the risk of getting banned for reposting what has already been cleared out, let's just say there was liberal use of the term "dunderhead."

Isn't that his post in the woodshed?

Dunno, haven't been there....I'll head that way and check it out.

*Edit* Lol Knapp, you were wise to not repost it out in the open.

 

[jsneb83]

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

At the risk of getting banned for reposting what has already been cleared out, let's just say there was liberal use of the term "dunderhead."

Don't you have immunity?

 

[Thanks_Tom RR]

Not stating if I think anyone is guilty or not. I do have one question that if I heard it right I am not sure I understand.

The female mentioned that the rape happened between the hours of 2:30 sunday morning to 9:30 am. Why could she not narrow a time better down better than 7 hours?

If I misheard, please correct me.

It could have happened while she was asleep, then she woke up and figured out what happened. Or since they were at a party alcohol may have been involved.

I never buy that as an excuse. If you choose to drink then you need to understand that the things you do while under the influence may or may not be agreeable to you when you sober up, but it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions. (When I use the word you in this post, I don't necessarily mean you Moiraine.)

Elf, just no. Maybe the way she was dressed, "she was just asking for it" too? No.

If she says yes while drunk, or even because she was drunk, when she sobers up it doesn't become rape. And no I was not implying that by drinking that she was "asking for it".
*Edit* I've heard some information within the last 12 hours that leads me to believe this. That's all I'm saying.

You said "it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions". This is disgusting to hear, and honestly, if that is how you feel, I am ashamed for you.
You are now saying that agreeing to sex while drunk gives the women no legal rights. However, consent cannot be given by someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless, including as a result of alcohol. You want consequences for actions, well don't sleep with someone who is drunk; otherwise, you can live with the consequences when they sober up.

Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol goes far beyond a choice to partake of sexual activities. We could list example after example of bad choices that are made while under the influence of alcohol and in the vast majority of cases we still hold those people accountable for their actions.
I think it goes without saying that someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless cannot give consent. These would be obvious exceptions to the above.

Oh, in regards to your last sentence, what happens when they are both drunk and make bad decisions, what then?

Simple, then both have legal rights. Of course, the woman may file for rape (which requires penetration) while the man may file for sexual assault.
Consequences for actions. You keep saying that, but clearly, you have a double standard in this situation, for whatever reason.

Where is my double standard?

"Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol". If you think they both drank, great. Both will live with the consequences of their actions following that choice. If you agree, what are we talking about?

That bolded part? That's a general statement that applies to everyone. Alcohol is a drug that affects our decision making process. If you drink enough, sooner or later you are going to make decisions you regret the next day. How do I know that? Been there, done that, not proud of it. I can't begin to count the number of people I've seen in those same shoes.

If YOU agree, then what are we talking about? Remember, you challenged me in this thread, not the other way around. And for the record, I think its far more likely that everyone was drinking than one person taking advantage of a drunk girl.

Okay. Let's make this really simple. It is clear you think the woman involved needs to accept the consequences of her choice to drink at a party, which apparently is rape in your definition. Now, what is not clear is whether you think the man involved needs to accept the consequences of having sex with an inebriated individual who reports said event as a crime. If you agree to the first part but not the second part, there is your double standard.

 

[Elf]

Not stating if I think anyone is guilty or not. I do have one question that if I heard it right I am not sure I understand.

The female mentioned that the rape happened between the hours of 2:30 sunday morning to 9:30 am. Why could she not narrow a time better down better than 7 hours?

If I misheard, please correct me.

It could have happened while she was asleep, then she woke up and figured out what happened. Or since they were at a party alcohol may have been involved.

I never buy that as an excuse. If you choose to drink then you need to understand that the things you do while under the influence may or may not be agreeable to you when you sober up, but it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions. (When I use the word you in this post, I don't necessarily mean you Moiraine.)

Elf, just no. Maybe the way she was dressed, "she was just asking for it" too? No.

If she says yes while drunk, or even because she was drunk, when she sobers up it doesn't become rape. And no I was not implying that by drinking that she was "asking for it".
*Edit* I've heard some information within the last 12 hours that leads me to believe this. That's all I'm saying.

You said "it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions". This is disgusting to hear, and honestly, if that is how you feel, I am ashamed for you.
You are now saying that agreeing to sex while drunk gives the women no legal rights. However, consent cannot be given by someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless, including as a result of alcohol. You want consequences for actions, well don't sleep with someone who is drunk; otherwise, you can live with the consequences when they sober up.

Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol goes far beyond a choice to partake of sexual activities. We could list example after example of bad choices that are made while under the influence of alcohol and in the vast majority of cases we still hold those people accountable for their actions.
I think it goes without saying that someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless cannot give consent. These would be obvious exceptions to the above.

Oh, in regards to your last sentence, what happens when they are both drunk and make bad decisions, what then?

Simple, then both have legal rights. Of course, the woman may file for rape (which requires penetration) while the man may file for sexual assault.
Consequences for actions. You keep saying that, but clearly, you have a double standard in this situation, for whatever reason.

Where is my double standard?

"Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol". If you think they both drank, great. Both will live with the consequences of their actions following that choice. If you agree, what are we talking about?

That bolded part? That's a general statement that applies to everyone. Alcohol is a drug that affects our decision making process. If you drink enough, sooner or later you are going to make decisions you regret the next day. How do I know that? Been there, done that, not proud of it. I can't begin to count the number of people I've seen in those same shoes.

If YOU agree, then what are we talking about? Remember, you challenged me in this thread, not the other way around. And for the record, I think its far more likely that everyone was drinking than one person taking advantage of a drunk girl.

Okay. Let's make this really simple. It is clear you think the woman involved needs to accept the consequences of her choice to drink at a party, which apparently is rape in your definition. Now, what is not clear is whether you think the man involved needs to accept the consequences of having sex with an inebriated individual who reports said event as a crime. If you agree to the first part but not the second part, there is your double standard.

Come on man, quit pulling stuff out of your anal orifice. And while you're at it, quit putting words in my mouth.

 

[Red Dead Redemption]

Come on man, quit pulling stuff out of your anal orifice. And while you're at it, quit putting words in my mouth.

No kidding! That's how you spread cholera!

 

[NUance]

Btw, if anyone recalls what Elfkiller said can you PM me? This should be awesome!

At the risk of getting banned for reposting what has already been cleared out, let's just say there was liberal use of the term "dunderhead."

Don't you have immunity?

Knapp has one warning point since stepping down from being a Mod. He doesn't have immunity. Nobody has immunity. Except maybe Eric.

 

[Thanks_Tom RR]

Not stating if I think anyone is guilty or not. I do have one question that if I heard it right I am not sure I understand.

The female mentioned that the rape happened between the hours of 2:30 sunday morning to 9:30 am. Why could she not narrow a time better down better than 7 hours?

If I misheard, please correct me.

It could have happened while she was asleep, then she woke up and figured out what happened. Or since they were at a party alcohol may have been involved.

I never buy that as an excuse. If you choose to drink then you need to understand that the things you do while under the influence may or may not be agreeable to you when you sober up, but it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions. (When I use the word you in this post, I don't necessarily mean you Moiraine.)

Elf, just no. Maybe the way she was dressed, "she was just asking for it" too? No.

If she says yes while drunk, or even because she was drunk, when she sobers up it doesn't become rape. And no I was not implying that by drinking that she was "asking for it".
*Edit* I've heard some information within the last 12 hours that leads me to believe this. That's all I'm saying.

You said "it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions". This is disgusting to hear, and honestly, if that is how you feel, I am ashamed for you.
You are now saying that agreeing to sex while drunk gives the women no legal rights. However, consent cannot be given by someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless, including as a result of alcohol. You want consequences for actions, well don't sleep with someone who is drunk; otherwise, you can live with the consequences when they sober up.

Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol goes far beyond a choice to partake of sexual activities. We could list example after example of bad choices that are made while under the influence of alcohol and in the vast majority of cases we still hold those people accountable for their actions.
I think it goes without saying that someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless cannot give consent. These would be obvious exceptions to the above.

Oh, in regards to your last sentence, what happens when they are both drunk and make bad decisions, what then?

Simple, then both have legal rights. Of course, the woman may file for rape (which requires penetration) while the man may file for sexual assault.
Consequences for actions. You keep saying that, but clearly, you have a double standard in this situation, for whatever reason.

Where is my double standard?

"Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol". If you think they both drank, great. Both will live with the consequences of their actions following that choice. If you agree, what are we talking about?

That bolded part? That's a general statement that applies to everyone. Alcohol is a drug that affects our decision making process. If you drink enough, sooner or later you are going to make decisions you regret the next day. How do I know that? Been there, done that, not proud of it. I can't begin to count the number of people I've seen in those same shoes.
If YOU agree, then what are we talking about? Remember, you challenged me in this thread, not the other way around. And for the record, I think its far more likely that everyone was drinking than one person taking advantage of a drunk girl.

Okay. Let's make this really simple. It is clear you think the woman involved needs to accept the consequences of her choice to drink at a party, which apparently is rape in your definition. Now, what is not clear is whether you think the man involved needs to accept the consequences of having sex with an inebriated individual who reports said event as a crime. If you agree to the first part but not the second part, there is your double standard.

Come on man, quit pulling stuff out of your anal orifice. And while you're at it, quit putting words in my mouth.

Come on man, answer the question. If this was not what you meant, then you have been very unclear.

 

[Elf]

Not stating if I think anyone is guilty or not. I do have one question that if I heard it right I am not sure I understand.

The female mentioned that the rape happened between the hours of 2:30 sunday morning to 9:30 am. Why could she not narrow a time better down better than 7 hours?

If I misheard, please correct me.

It could have happened while she was asleep, then she woke up and figured out what happened. Or since they were at a party alcohol may have been involved.

I never buy that as an excuse. If you choose to drink then you need to understand that the things you do while under the influence may or may not be agreeable to you when you sober up, but it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions. (When I use the word you in this post, I don't necessarily mean you Moiraine.)

Elf, just no. Maybe the way she was dressed, "she was just asking for it" too? No.

If she says yes while drunk, or even because she was drunk, when she sobers up it doesn't become rape. And no I was not implying that by drinking that she was "asking for it".
*Edit* I've heard some information within the last 12 hours that leads me to believe this. That's all I'm saying.

You said "it was YOUR decision to drink so you get to live with the consequences of your actions". This is disgusting to hear, and honestly, if that is how you feel, I am ashamed for you.
You are now saying that agreeing to sex while drunk gives the women no legal rights. However, consent cannot be given by someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless, including as a result of alcohol. You want consequences for actions, well don't sleep with someone who is drunk; otherwise, you can live with the consequences when they sober up.

Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol goes far beyond a choice to partake of sexual activities. We could list example after example of bad choices that are made while under the influence of alcohol and in the vast majority of cases we still hold those people accountable for their actions.
I think it goes without saying that someone who is mentally incapable or physically helpless cannot give consent. These would be obvious exceptions to the above.

Oh, in regards to your last sentence, what happens when they are both drunk and make bad decisions, what then?

Simple, then both have legal rights. Of course, the woman may file for rape (which requires penetration) while the man may file for sexual assault.
Consequences for actions. You keep saying that, but clearly, you have a double standard in this situation, for whatever reason.

Where is my double standard?

"Living with the consequences of our decisions to drink alcohol". If you think they both drank, great. Both will live with the consequences of their actions following that choice. If you agree, what are we talking about?

That bolded part? That's a general statement that applies to everyone. Alcohol is a drug that affects our decision making process. If you drink enough, sooner or later you are going to make decisions you regret the next day. How do I know that? Been there, done that, not proud of it. I can't begin to count the number of people I've seen in those same shoes.
If YOU agree, then what are we talking about? Remember, you challenged me in this thread, not the other way around. And for the record, I think its far more likely that everyone was drinking than one person taking advantage of a drunk girl.

Okay. Let's make this really simple. It is clear you think the woman involved needs to accept the consequences of her choice to drink at a party, which apparently is rape in your definition. Now, what is not clear is whether you think the man involved needs to accept the consequences of having sex with an inebriated individual who reports said event as a crime. If you agree to the first part but not the second part, there is your double standard.

Come on man, quit pulling stuff out of your anal orifice. And while you're at it, quit putting words in my mouth.

Come on man, answer the question. If this was not what you meant, then you have been very unclear.

You have been making assumptions. If and when you want to stop doing that and have an honest discussion, then I'm game. Until then, go pound sand.

 

[Bowfin]

Nobody deserves to get raped because maybe they were drunk with drunk people. Nobody deserves to get accused of rape because maybe they were drunk with drunk people. Nobody deserves to drown because they walked just a little ways on thin ice. Unfortunately, consequences aren't always commensurate with the cause. Best to err on the side of caution in almost every case, but everybody knows everybody has parties, drink, and hook up with no problems...