Sexism - It's a Real Thing
- Thread starter NM11046
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BigRedBuster
Well-known member
This guy is a reap piece of crap.
NM11046
Donor
Pretty introspective article, thanks for posting. She's able to verbalize what so many of us are having a tough time with. There's no doubt the disgust I feel, and that I know how wrong it is, and that there is a no doubt why people wait to report (if they ever do) but there is a weird empathy that seeps in.
zoogs
New member
^Yep! I think introspection is invaluable. We have this whole way of responding to things that we've internalized. Some of it is unfortunate in what it prioritizes. More good reading; a WaPo article entitled "What it’s like to watch men like Roy Moore as a conservative and as a sex abuse survivor":
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/11/10/what-its-like-to-watch-men-like-roy-moore-as-a-conservative-and-as-a-sex-abuse-survivor/?utm_term=.56c52bc24e4c
"The evil of sexual predators is that they attack the weak, make them weaker, then discredit them because of their weakness. [...] But these victims, one by one, are coming forward anyway — well aware that they’ll be mocked and disbelieved, well aware that some will scrutinize their lives more harshly than their predators’."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/11/10/what-its-like-to-watch-men-like-roy-moore-as-a-conservative-and-as-a-sex-abuse-survivor/?utm_term=.56c52bc24e4c
"The evil of sexual predators is that they attack the weak, make them weaker, then discredit them because of their weakness. [...] But these victims, one by one, are coming forward anyway — well aware that they’ll be mocked and disbelieved, well aware that some will scrutinize their lives more harshly than their predators’."
zoogs
New member
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800
Cross-posting this article from another thread. Here's this quote, which is both from an everyday American and exactly the kind of thing you see, hear, and read all the time. It's pretty reflective of how we basically treat, think, and talk about women. Without thinking. It's automatic. And pointing it out is going to get some eye-rolling, "Come on, you're going to make a big deal of that?"...which again is emblematic of the problem.
Cross-posting this article from another thread. Here's this quote, which is both from an everyday American and exactly the kind of thing you see, hear, and read all the time. It's pretty reflective of how we basically treat, think, and talk about women. Without thinking. It's automatic. And pointing it out is going to get some eye-rolling, "Come on, you're going to make a big deal of that?"...which again is emblematic of the problem.
He is married, if you were wondering. "A Catholic whose wife goes to Church every Sunday".
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Guy Chamberlin
Well-known member
I think the only place for this to end up --- where it should have been all along -- is that a man is free to say whatever he want to a woman in an attempt to get laid.
And we are free to judge that man however we want.
But you can't ask a woman who is dependent on you for her career to watch you masturbate. There was never a time when that was okay.
Kinda like how cell phone cameras showed how far we are away from true civil rights, this wave of emboldened women reveals just how ugly some men can be and still get away with it.
Gotta admit I've been surprised and depressed by both.
And we are free to judge that man however we want.
But you can't ask a woman who is dependent on you for her career to watch you masturbate. There was never a time when that was okay.
Kinda like how cell phone cameras showed how far we are away from true civil rights, this wave of emboldened women reveals just how ugly some men can be and still get away with it.
Gotta admit I've been surprised and depressed by both.
BigRedBuster
Well-known member
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zoogs
New member
Wow, Charlie Rose. Also long rumored, apparently well known, but never publicized and never a problem for him: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/eight-women-say-charlie-rose-sexually-harassed-them--with-nudity-groping-and-lewd-calls/2017/11/20/9b168de8-caec-11e7-8321-481fd63f174d_story.html?utm_term=.5539ba66ec77
I think part of the issue with men like Charlie Rose is that they just assumed this was how things go. If you aren't walking the line on harrassing, you aren't trying and you certainly won't get any. It's a bit of a different world now, where society is starting to expect you to view the women in your professional orbit as people and not playthings. And equally, women are more empowered to speak up and advocate for themselves, rather than rely on whisper networks or be taught to accept it as necessary facts of professional life as a woman.
It turns out it's possible to be respectful of women, express interest in ways and in spaces that are appropriate for it, and respect their decisions as their own and not something you have to work at / engineer things until you get the result you want.
(Just thinking about that last point though, I have a huge problem with how these kinds of interactions tend to play out on TV. Hollywood is nothing if not scripted, and the script is an old and gross one in this area. How many times have we seen the trope of jerk guy wears a woman down until she gives in? It's no wonder sometimes that people internalize this all as what is expected.)
I think part of the issue with men like Charlie Rose is that they just assumed this was how things go. If you aren't walking the line on harrassing, you aren't trying and you certainly won't get any. It's a bit of a different world now, where society is starting to expect you to view the women in your professional orbit as people and not playthings. And equally, women are more empowered to speak up and advocate for themselves, rather than rely on whisper networks or be taught to accept it as necessary facts of professional life as a woman.
It turns out it's possible to be respectful of women, express interest in ways and in spaces that are appropriate for it, and respect their decisions as their own and not something you have to work at / engineer things until you get the result you want.
(Just thinking about that last point though, I have a huge problem with how these kinds of interactions tend to play out on TV. Hollywood is nothing if not scripted, and the script is an old and gross one in this area. How many times have we seen the trope of jerk guy wears a woman down until she gives in? It's no wonder sometimes that people internalize this all as what is expected.)
BigRedBuster
Well-known member
The Charley Rose issue is frustrating to me because I have thought for a long time that he was the closest we had to someone in news who is closest to the old Walter Cronkite mold. Who knows....maybe Walter used to chase tail around the office too.
funhusker
Active member
I think the trouble people like this are having is equating "a pass" with "sleep with me and I'll be in a better mood when I give out Christmas bonuses".
Now, I don't recommend a boss ask his assistant out on a date after two weeks on the job. But grown adults that work together for a long period of time can develop pretty serious relationships. I guess I don't see an issue with a boss letting his assistant know about these feelings as long as he is prepared to never mention them again and maintain a professional relationship after he is turned down. I'm I wrong in thinking this way?
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Landlord
Banned
I completely disagree with Jeet Heer's dismissive assessment of what Podhoretz is trying to get at, which is a legitimate concern of the idea that collectively we aren't really looking for justice as much as we're looking for ego-feeding "bad guys", and if that's our underlying desire then it will be easy to erroneously paint undeserving targets in the quest for a supposed moral advancement.
I'm not talking about Charlie Rose, although, in a way he's right about how we are all learning about this together. Men are learning that we've had a massively ignorant blind spot, and women are learning that they've internalized this misogyny and harrassment. What the Vox article gets wrong is that we are collectively learning with a higher degree of fidelity - on a spectrum - instead of just a "you either know about it or you don't" false dichotomy.
Anyways, regardless of that, I'm talking about how in the midst of a very good thing with the turn of the tide culturally for women to feel emboldened to share their stories, and for men to be able to experience proper and proportionate consequences, we need to hold on to common sense. Outrage is outrageously addictive. The base layers of our brain are spending every second wanting to put people into categories, to label, to find patterns and to create us/them scenarios. It served us pretty well as hunter gatherers - we need to consciously and actively fight the impulse in culture.