Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[Making Chimichangas]

I'd like to have everyone who has commented thus far in this thread answer one seemingly simple question...

Do the people in the First Order consider themselves as evil?

Thoughts?

 

[Landlord]

No. Neither do the GOP, neither did the confederacy :lol:

 

[Making Chimichangas]

 The way I see it, I think that life in the First Order is probably pretty sweet.  If you're stationed on one of their Star Destroyers or Dreadnaughts, you probably are paid pretty well, have access to medical care, plenty of food, undoubtedly there are bars and entertainment to engage in on your off hours, and best part, since there is no more Darth Vader, your chances of being Force-choked to death for a mistake is probably pretty small to nil.  Kylo Ren has a temper, but thus far he hasn't murdered any of the officers.

So...would anyone here opt to join the First Order if it was real?

(Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Festivus For The Rest Of Us, Happy Kwanza, Happy Hanukkah, et al)

 

[knapplc]

The fight scene between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi reimagined.  Apparently a full scene is forthcoming. 

 

[Redux]

Well......my nips are hard

 

[Enhance]

I'd like to have everyone who has commented thus far in this thread answer one seemingly simple question...

Do the people in the First Order consider themselves as evil?

Thoughts?

"Evil?" I'm not sure.

I believe the First Order has convinced itself (like many authoritarian powers do) that the ends justify the means, even if those means are atrocious and result in the deaths of a lot of people.

The Battlefront 2 campaign is pretty fascinating in this regard because

Spoiler

it gives some insight into the 'indoctrination.' The main character is an Imperial soldier who grew up on an Imperial planet. The Empire twisted the narrative and facts to suggest the Rebellion was entirely at fault for all the bad things that happened in the galaxy. The main character is convinced the Empire's course of action is the proper one until the Empire turns on her home planet and kills millions loyal to the Empire. She realizes then that it was all a farce.

 

[Landlord]

Let's not forget that the Republic/Resistance has plenty of blood on it's hands as well. They're apparently comfortable killing hundreds if not thousands if not millions of - essentially - child soldiers in the form of stormtroopers.

 

[Red Five]

Going to see it again tonight.  This time in IMAX.

 

[JJ Husker]

Finally went and saw TLJ. I have a feeling I’ll like it better after a few days and maybe after I watch it again but at this point I am not impressed. There were so many things I didn’t like about it and so few things that I did like. My biggest problem is I just don’t like the Kylo Ren character. It’s not that I don’t like him (that would be a good thing) it’s that he just isn’t a believable bad guy. Anakin/Vader was provided a reason for going bad but Kylo...nothing, no reasoning behind it and he just wasn’t bad a$$ enough. Snoke is another one. What did the epitome of evil do in two movies? Nada, he died, that’s about it. I also now know why Mark Hamill was not impressed with the direction they took his character. I just really feel they wasted the potential of Leia and Luke. Rose was cute but why? Finn....Poe....they could’ve done so much more. Rae was about the only bright spot imo. I liked Finn but he could’ve done so much more and was underutilized. I guess it boils down to a complete lack of character development. Find a body, throw em into the fray, and done. Not very good story telling imo. I appreciate some light comedy asides but this episode had a few too many. It just seemed like they had a certain recipe to follow but they used no finesse in putting the ingredients together. Maybe it was bad direction but it seemed like hamhanded writing as well.  I have to side with knapp’s earlier comments about it not being a very good movie. I’m hoping it grows on me with some time and another viewing but I have my doubts. I still rank it ahead of ep 2 & 3, that is how much I hated virtually every scene ever with Hayden Christiansen. Make the bad guys bad, conflicted is okay but bad, not whiny. I will say that much of it was visually stunning so it looked very appealing but c’mon, give us some worthy character development and story telling. Why do we hate the First Order other than we know they’re the bad guys. I mean what are they trying to accomplish except snuffing out the resistance? Why?

 

[zoogs]

This is the most direct and, for me, relatable distillation of why I love everything about this new Star Wars trilogy: https://bittergertrude.com/2017/12/20/this-is-not-going-to-go-the-way-you-think-the-last-jedi-is-subversive-af-and-i-am-here-for-it/ 'TLJ is subversive AF and I am here for it'

There's a lot in here; one thing I think this piece does an especially good job of conveying is why the Finn and Rose subplot is so thematically meaningful (even if it did feel oddly extraneous). 

I rewatched TFA tonight and thought back to a lot of my takeaways from that movie and how they've carried over. Finn and Rey were played as a romance in that movie, at least as often traditionally depicted...but it's a friendship, showing that male and female characters can form a strong bond without the trope of romantic procurance. This, I think, is such an important message and it's so casually embedded into the film (here's to Poe/Finn, JJ, you can do this!). Also, I've seen suggestions that Rian Johnson took Rey's parentage in this direction after JJ tried to build it towards another one, but it seemed so clearly laid out even in the first movie! Maz -- how tremendous is Lupita N'yongo, by the way -- tells her point blank that she must know whoever she is waiting for is not going to return, and that "the belonging you seek is ahead of you, not behind." That excited me so much at the time, and seeing it again affirms for me that this was the vision all along.

My biggest gripe is Phasma, and the fake-out that she would be a meaningful character, but I guess you can't fit in everybody. The Mary Sue also had a review somewhere (no link handy) of some of the critiques on female character story arcs in TLJ; how they seemed too often to be in service of a male character's development. I can see that, but I agree with their counterpoint, which is that Hondo's lesson was not just for Poe but for an audience expecting the trope of wild man bravado triumphing. Also, TFA really brought Rey along from introduction to ascension, and it made sense to me that she wouldn't have as much to do in this middle movie while Kylo and Luke resolved big questions about themselves. That had to dominate this movie and it was awesome for it!

Great piece also in NYT about the Star Wars story group: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-women-run-universe.html?mtrref=www.google.com&mtrref=www.nytimes.com&gwh=3AFB01B349626794B9A70F9273E0BC66&gwt=pay

 

[zoogs]

^I think this was good to see from Hamil, who overall seems so on board with the spirit of what they're trying to accomplish now.

There was another creative difference that he had which I learned about recently -- he is apparently a noted animal rights guy and had asked to make sure that he was only using his sword to scare off the Wampa in Empire. When the movie came out and he found Luke had not only cut off the Wampa's arm, it was dramatized in a slowmo shot off the severed limb falling into the ground, he was horrified and is still mad to this day. That's a nitpicking detail, perhaps, but it's definitely one I can get behind. And a good thing to bring up now that the newest entry has an unabashed 'be humane to animals' stance.

(The barbecued porg looked delicious, though. What can I say, I'm compromised.)

 

[Landlord]

My biggest problem is I just don’t like the Kylo Ren character. It’s not that I don’t like him (that would be a good thing) it’s that he just isn’t a believable bad guy. Anakin/Vader was provided a reason for going bad but Kylo...nothing, no reasoning behind it

The original trilogy does not give any reason as to why Anakin turned to the dark side. For 65% of the the trilogy, we don't even know who or what Darth Vader is other than he was Obi-Wan's pupil who is now bad and badass. The majority of IV-V-VI is spent with utter cluelessness as to his motivations/desires/history/what led the Emperor to seduce him.

Snoke is another one. What did the epitome of evil do in two movies? Nada, he died, that’s about it. 

What did Emperor Palpatine, the epitome of evil, do in three movies? Nada, he died, that's about it.

I also now know why Mark Hamill was not impressed with the direction they took his character. I just really feel they wasted the potential of Leia and Luke.

I can kind of see why people see that with Luke, but Leia? She's never been as important in any other Star Wars movie - The Last Jedi literally gave her the most stature and the most importance she's ever had in the universe  :dunno

Why do we hate the First Order other than we know they’re the bad guys. I mean what are they trying to accomplish except snuffing out the resistance? Why?

Again - why did we hate the Empire in the original trilogy other than we know they're the bad guys? I mean what are they trying to accomplish except snuffing out the rebels? Why?

 

[JJ Husker]

Landlord, what vested interest do you have in Star Wars or TLJ? You seem to take any criticism of it so personally.

Palpatine did so much more than Snoke it’s laughable that you say that.

But as to your other points, you’re sort of correct, the story telling has been pretty poor throughout the whole Star Wars story. But at least they made up for it in some episodes by having actual character development and motivations. Overall I’ve enjoyed most of it but I’m just not sure about this latest installment yet. I’m being honest, I had much the same feeling after TFA but now really like it.  Rogue One is one of my favorites because it went back and filled in a hole. ANH will always be my favorite because I’m old and remember it being a huge deal back in the day and most don’t agree with me but The Phantom Menace is pretty high on my list even with Jar Jar. I liked the pod races.....I’m a pretty simple guy, I like to be entertained at the movies and I either like it or I don’t. Like I say I think TLJ will grow on me with time but my initial reaction was disappointment.

 

[Landlord]

Landlord, what vested interest do you have in Star Wars or TLJ? You seem to take any criticism of it so personally.

Palpatine did so much more than Snoke it’s laughable that you say that.

But as to your other points, you’re sort of correct, the story telling has been pretty poor throughout the whole Star Wars story. But at least they made up for it in some episodes by having actual character development and motivations. Overall I’ve enjoyed most of it but I’m just not sure about this latest installment yet. I’m being honest, I had much the same feeling after TFA but now really like it.  Rogue One is one of my favorites because it went back and filled in a hole. ANH will always be my favorite because I’m old and remember it being a huge deal back in the day and most don’t agree with me but The Phantom Menace is pretty high on my list even with Jar Jar. I liked the pod races.....I’m a pretty simple guy, I like to be entertained at the movies and I either like it or I don’t. Like I say I think TLJ will grow on me with time but my initial reaction was disappointment.

Palpatine didn't do anything in the original trilogy except show up on hologram a bit, force lightning Luke a bit, and die. Literally everything that Snoke did :lol: I don't take it personally at all, I just don't think your line of reasoning makes much sense if you don't have the same disappointment towards all Star Wars.

 

[zoogs]

I get the "Huhs" at Kylo & Snoke, but I actually think this is one of the best attributes of the new trilogy. Put succinctly, they're doing with this one what they could have done with Anakin in the prequels, but didn't (in favor of the episodic snapshot treatment, which was good for certain things, I guess). That is, exploring the pathology behind evil. 

Ben had more power than he knew what to do with and was always told he had a special place in the world. He's a Skywalker child! He also had darkness he didn't know what to do with. He was failed by his parents, who sent him away. And failed by his master, the legendary Luke Skywalker, who for all he knew was going to murder him in cold blood. That can break a child's mind. As Luke said: "the last thing I saw were the eyes of a scared boy." 

As for Snoke, he offered Ben a place in the universe and the promise of training. Kylo obviously always felt Snoke was dispensable, and harbored his own ambitions. Snoke being unimportant makes the evil in this trilogy belong emphatically to Kylo, which is awesome. Snoke came ready-made; we never got to see him formed. Kylo was able to choose between two paths. There were all these excellent shots in TFA where we look at Kylo's face from a lower angle and he doesn't have the slightest hint of foreboding in him, mask on or not. But he's still a powerful guy, after all, however raw. And when push came to shove, he chose the evil path, which is quite terrifying. I don't expect him to be a very competent leader at all, but you don't have to be a wise and skilled tactician to be very destructive.

In a lot of ways, this more human face on evil makes it all the more credible, at least for me. Evil in our world is thin-skinned, weak-willed, frightened people with dangerous egos. Not supremely prescient political minds and master manipulators who also happen to look like really bad dudes and shoot lightning bolts.

(I'm not saying cackling, wrinkled Palpatine was a bad way for the originals to go, btw. It's just that we've seen it before, and a million times since, so I'm glad they're taking this angle instead)