Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

zoogs said:
To be clear, this isn't an argument that the movie is bad or that this makes it misogynist. It's an (IMO, worthy) examination of whether WW deserved some of the "boldly feminist" plaudits it was receiving. I think I would say WW isn't really for me, largely because comic book movies in general are not for me. I'm happy they finally have one starring female role, but that fact doesn't bowl me over, either. The genre is still fundamentally male-oriented, and it will be a while before all aspects of that can be taken on.

It's different from the fury I would reserve for Jurassic World. Which in this area was actively bad. Didn't try to be good. Tried, maybe without realizing, to be exactly as awful as it was.

I love Supergirl, though. I guess it's not fair to compare movies and TV in this area. TV always leads cinema here, for whatever reason...but a lot of the critiques the Slate author levied at WW are absent from Supergirl. It's just a really well crafted cast. Not that it's lacking for romance, either, but Kira isn't sexualized, the show isn't shot for the male gaze, the supporting male (good guy) characters are exemplary in their respect for women for reasons other than their bodies, and it abounds with strong female characters (one who runs the media empire where Kira/SG works; her foster sister who is a lead secret agent fighting the bad guys; her foster sister's girlfriend who is a big-time police detective). I think there is much more of a template for all of this on a network procedural than there is in Hollywood, though.

But back to Star Wars, though :lol:  
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Regarding Wonder Woman...this particular reviewer needs to take whatever is stuck up her rear end out.  Wonder Woman's attire in the movie is thoroughly consistent with her attire throughout the history of the comics.  And I'm sorry that whomever this reviewer is feels offended that the character and the actress who played her are both "beautiful."  She needs to look past the superficial trappings of the costume and go deeper into the mythos of what Wonder Woman truly means and stands for.  Judging this movie through the filter of her angry beliefs discolors and distorts her objectivity.  And trust me, having beliefs skewed by anger is something I know all about.  But if I can work on it, so can this reviewer.

Now...back to Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

 
So I'm a little late to the party, I finally watched it New Years Day (a good way to kick off 2018 though). I thought it was great and I'll try to keep my pros/cons list short since most of opinions have already been shared.

Pros:

- I really enjoyed The Force Awakens, but felt that it followed the story line of A New Hope a little too close. The Last Jedi stayed true to the Star Wars of old, but did it's own thing too. It was a good balance (maybe I'm too picky). 

- Special effects and filming were fantastic.

- I liked the humor thrown in here and there. Not too much, and executed well. Like @Redux said the whole wait two years for Luke to grab the light saber just to throw it over his shoulder was great IMO.

- Along with the last point, the whole Poe/Hux back and forth right away was gold.

- As others have said, the Luke hologram, Rey/Ren battle with Snoke's guard, and blasting through the First Order's fleet at light speed were fantastic!

Cons:

- They had like 5 chances to kill Leia, but she lives and Luke dies. It was almost like they were trolling us. I kept thinking, "great, here it comes" and her flying through space back to the ship was... just weird. 

- I didn't mind the casino scene and Fin/Rose subplot, but it could have been cut in half.

- Probably reaching, but it would have been cool for them to have Obi Wan's force ghost come to the island along with Yoda's, especially since he also had an apprentice turn.

 
clyde40 said:
So I'm a little late to the party, I finally watched it New Years Day (a good way to kick off 2018 though). I thought it was great and I'll try to keep my pros/cons list short since most of opinions have already been shared.

Pros:

- I really enjoyed The Force Awakens, but felt that it followed the story line of A New Hope a little too close. The Last Jedi stayed true to the Star Wars of old, but did it's own thing too. It was a good balance (maybe I'm too picky). 

- Special effects and filming were fantastic.

- I liked the humor thrown in here and there. Not too much, and executed well. Like @Redux said the whole wait two years for Luke to grab the light saber just to throw it over his shoulder was great IMO.

- Along with the last point, the whole Poe/Hux back and forth right away was gold.

- As others have said, the Luke hologram, Rey/Ren battle with Snoke's guard, and blasting through the First Order's fleet at light speed were fantastic!

Cons:

- They had like 5 chances to kill Leia, but she lives and Luke dies. It was almost like they were trolling us. I kept thinking, "great, here it comes" and her flying through space back to the ship was... just weird. 

- I didn't mind the casino scene and Fin/Rose subplot, but it could have been cut in half.

- Probably reaching, but it would have been cool for them to have Obi Wan's force ghost come to the island along with Yoda's, especially since he also had an apprentice turn.
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The movie was in post production, filming was done and over for about 6 months when Carrie passed away.  To change the movie that dramatically to kill Leia would have been a major set back, a major re-write would have been needed, getting the cast together to re-shoot thing, most likely leading to the delay of the release.  This was going to be a Christmas Movie, and there is NO WAY Disney would have been able to sit on this another year with no spoilers going out.  It just wasn't plausible to have Leia die in VIII, she will have to die off screen, most likely in the time period between when episode XIII ends and IX begins.  I'd assume there will be a canon book/comic book/animation to come out in the not too distant future that will explore how Leia passed away.   This way Carrie won't have to reprise the role and they can still explain what happened to her.

As for her using the force to fly, yes that was a bit 'odd' especially since I cannot remember any other time Leia exhibited skills with the force.

 
I loved the Force fly scene. We had really never seen Leia show her Force prowess before, ever...but she had it and it didn't even strike people as that unusual. I think the implication there is that her strength in the Force was obvious to those around her, even if it wasn't the light saber / throwing objects around stuff we have been used to. I love the idea that Leia is quite powerful in the Force, just in a different way.

I wonder if they weren't planning on having her die at all in the trilogy. This episode belonged to Luke, and she could have had an even larger role in the next one. I think there was a need for Luke and Han to hand off their roles, but there was so much unexplored with Leia's character. If she was going to have a role at all in IX, there was no need for her to die in the course of things.

I want some Holdo spinoff movies, though. No interest in Han (nobody is going to be able to replace Harrison Ford, man. That's a losing proposition), or Boba, or Greedo, or whatever else they want to try and wring out of nostalgia...except Obi Wan, perhaps: Ewan reprising that role would be awesome. But yes. Mainly Holdo. Please give us more Laura Dern.

 
We definitely have different tastes in movies, zoogs.  I thought the Mary Poppins force-flying thing was super campy and completely out of touch with the rest of the series.  It was one of the most jarring things we've seen in the main arc movies, and that includes Jar Jar and feral teddy bears. 

I also don't see the need for Luke or Han's roles to end, and I think the Han Solo spinoff has the potential to be the most fun, interesting series of all of them, including the original trilogy.  Han's life as an orphan smuggler has nearly unlimited potential for fun storylines.  Leia is nice, but for all but a brief time in her life she's been a politician and a bureaucrat. Not sure where they could take that character.  She was at her best when she was Han's side, or Luke's. 

 
zoogs said:
I loved the Force fly scene. We had really never seen Leia show her Force prowess before, ever...but she had it and it didn't even strike people as that unusual. I think the implication there is that her strength in the Force was obvious to those around her, even if it wasn't the light saber / throwing objects around stuff we have been used to. I love the idea that Leia is quite powerful in the Force, just in a different way.

I wonder if they weren't planning on having her die at all in the trilogy. This episode belonged to Luke, and she could have had an even larger role in the next one. I think there was a need for Luke and Han to hand off their roles, but there was so much unexplored with Leia's character. If she was going to have a role at all in IX, there was no need for her to die in the course of things.

I want some Holdo spinoff movies, though. No interest in Han (nobody is going to be able to replace Harrison Ford, man. That's a losing proposition), or Boba, or Greedo, or whatever else they want to try and wring out of nostalgia...except Obi Wan, perhaps: Ewan reprising that role would be awesome. But yes. Mainly Holdo. Please give us more Laura Dern.
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Early reports of Episode IX were that Leia was going to be a major role and figure in the movie.  Obviously that will have to be re-written as Lucas has said they will not CGI or recast her.

Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy has revealed that the original plan for Star Wars: Episode IX was to have Carrie Fisher’s General Leia Organa be “at the forefront” of the movie. Star Wars fans continue to mourn the loss of Fisher, who passed away in December 2016 following a heart attack. The last handful of months have proven to be quite emotional as details of Fisher’s role in Star Wars: The Last Jedi emerge amidst touching tributes to the late actress. After a brief appearance in Episode VII, Leia reportedly has more to do in Episode VIII – including an intense scene recently teased by Oscar Isaac.
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https://screenrant.com/star-wars-9-leia-role-carrie-fisher/

 
Thanks! I'm really glad they aren't going to go the CGI route. That was a little too uncanny valley for my tastes, and it just doesn't feel right.

I see it this way: Leia was given relatively short shrift in the originals, but only by modern standards. Han starred and even a well-executed Solo movie will feel a little supplementary. Whereas there was an opportunity to expand on Leia and explore the fact that she was more than just [male lead]'s side, as you aptly put it. She was at her best in VIII, though. I just think that it was breathtaking for her to finally have a grand moment of her own. Jar Jar and the ewoks were silly things for the kids and for comedic relief, so I'm not sure how they fall under the same umbrella, personally. Our tastes do vary!  :D

 
What makes Leia a more compelling character than Han? She seems more Elizabeth Bennet compared to Han Solo's Tom Sawyer. 

 
Han is one of my favorite characters. All I said was I'm not that into the idea of seeing a Han Solo spinoff with some guy who's not Harrison Ford.

Leia...I don't know, she was amazing in VIII. I really like the idea that this woman who has been kind of overlooked in-universe actually has a lot more to her than has been presented to the audience. Which should ultimately make us go, oh, well, of course she was always an extraordinary leader. This isn't to take away from Han or Luke's heroic and entertaining exploits...

I'm not sure if you intended that comparison as a slight, but is it?...

 
zoogs said:
Han is one of my favorite characters. All I said was I'm not that into the idea of seeing a Han Solo spinoff with some guy who's not Harrison Ford.

Leia...I don't know, she was amazing in VIII. I really like the idea that this woman who has been kind of overlooked in-universe actually has a lot more to her than has been presented to the audience. Which should ultimately make us go, oh, well, of course she was always an extraordinary leader. This isn't to take away from Han or Luke's heroic and entertaining exploits...

I'm not sure if you intended that comparison as a slight, but is it?...
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Leia was in a space coma for most of Episode VIII, how was she "amazing"?  This is coming from a guy who didn't think her Mary Poppins space flight was that bad.  Yeah, it looked kinda dumb, but I didn't have any issue with her using any force powers, that part made sense.

 
knapplc said:
Do you know who Elizabeth Bennet and Tom Sawyer are?
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You'll have to explain the comparison to me. It's been a looooong time since I read Pride and Prejudice, and there's very little that I remember of it. For that matter, it's been a long time since I've read Tom Sawyer.

@Husk -- it's subjective, I guess! I thought Leia was a weak character in TFA, mainly because she was given almost nothing to do. That wasn't the case in TLJ. She wasn't a protagonist, or anything, but I think we really saw things through her eyes for the first time. Her crushing despair at losing the bombing fleet and her goodbye to Holdo were really memorable.

 
zoogs said:
You'll have to explain the comparison to me. It's been a looooong time since I read Pride and Prejudice, and there's very little that I remember of it. For that matter, it's been a long time since I've read Tom Sawyer.
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Not too deep of an analogy, so don't go hit Elizabeth Bennet's wiki page. :D   Just that she was a giant of a literary character, well-respected, well-known, stuff like that, but not an adventurous character.  Not someone you'd build a series around. A major Leia story arc would be more political than swashbuckling. 

Tom Sawyer was just rambunctious guy, fun, adventurous, outgoing, a captivating character.  Tons of story lines, tons of things to do with him. 

 
I'm kinda with @zoogs on this one--I'm not really interested in a young Han Solo movie.  Don't get me wrong, I'll still see it.  Who knows, it might even end up being terrific.  But right now it just seems...meh.

As far as Carrie Fisher, yeah her passing really threw a wrench into the Episode IX script.  Word is the script had to be completely rewritten.

As far as one shot, stand alone movies, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to see a Star Wars movie where Mara Jade is the central character.  The movie could be set during the time of Return of the Jedi or shortly thereafter.  That's one thing some of these upcoming Star Wars movies could do differently: Give us a film with an Imperial point of view.  Because all the current films are from the Rebellion/Resistance's point of view.  Show a band of rebels essentially committing heinous war crimes on a Imperial controlled world.  But yeah there is a goldmine of untapped stories in the SWEU.

 
Oh, I'm not saying nobody should be up for Han spinoffs by the way...just that for me, personally, it doesn't excite me all that much. I'd actually be more interested in seeing Elizabeth than Tom, too, incidentally, if only because I've seen so many swashbuckling rowdy adventure types and at some level, it all reduces to the same thing...not that I don't enjoy some of them, a lot.

Anyway, I came here to post a few things:

1. The New Yorker's Field Guide to the Musical Leitmotifs of Star Wars https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-field-guide-to-the-musical-leitmotifs-of-star-wars?mbid=social_twitter

(Go look up the Luke staring into the binary suns from ANH, btw. It's so beautiful. Breathtaking)

2. 


I love how well this puts the words the reason I find the treatment of evil in this saga to be so gripping. It's one thing when we're dealing with some sort of evil incarnate, monstrous forms lusting blindly for power. Evil here centers on two guys who look like they should be playing heroes (or soon-to-be redeemed villains), but who instead are the driving force of the machine because they really do have this "yes, more of that Empire stuff", they have it to their very core.

 
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