Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[Making Chimichangas]

@Redux, I absolutely love The Last Jedi, but yeah that scene with Leia Poppins is one for the all-time cringe list.  The only thing about that scene that I do like is when she floats in, she floats through the hologram of Snoke's ship, and splitting it in two--foreshadowing Vice Admiral Holdo's manuver.

I think, given the events of TESB and ROTJ, that the way Luke went out in TLJ was very fitting.  I literally have no idea why people get so upset at how Luke died.  Mark Hammil is 65+ years old.  How many more Star Wars movies, jedi lightsaber battles, and action sequences do fans honestly think he has left?  So being a Force Ghost gives his character more chances to be a mentor/guide.

So yeah, while The Last Jedi does have problems, they are (in my estimation) not even close to detracting the movies.  

 

[knapplc]

1- Hindsight, they should have had Leia either not survive the explosion on the ship or instead of Admiral Holdo staying behind to kamikaze the First Order Leia could have stayed behind and passed the torch to Holdo.  Granted this was before Carrie's passing so how could they have known.

2- Luke doesn't need to die.  It sucks that he did because we waited 30 years to see him light saber battle the hell out of some bad guys.  We kind of got that.  The scene against Kylo was really great, I love it.  But yeah, now we will never see a true Luke vs whoever battle.  I blame George Lucas for that though for not giving us episodes 7, 8 and 9 in the 90's.

3- The Leia space Mary Poppins was still cringe worthy.

4- Canto Byte (spelling?) was still a pointless side mission that wasted valuable time the Resistance didn't have.  BUT, this time I liked it a little more honestly.  Rose is still a little too much for my taste but not awful.  I still wish that instead of their whole vacation sequence Finn and Rose would have just infiltrated the First Order ship to begin with, would have made way more sense.

5- Phasma was pointless.....again.  No Knights of Ren......again.  Nuff said.

I have raised these points before and you've castigated me for being an un-fan. What the heck, bro?

Really, that's about it.  It's far from a perfect entry to the series.  But damn is this movie compelling, honestly it just is.  And visually it was even more stunning the 2nd time around.  I don't care that Snoke died without any real backstory, why does he HAVE to be somebody we should worry a lot about.  Palpatine wasn't someone we cared about until years after ROTJ and books and comics and action figures made us care about him.  I am perfectly fine with Rey being nobody, most Jedi were before getting training.  Just because she doesn't belong to one of the famous bloodlines doesn't ruin anything for me what so ever.  I still LOVE the kamikaze scene, those nitpicking it are just the same who don't like it for prior reasons and want to further crap on the movie.  That scene was awesome in the theater.  And finally I am okay with the fact Luke isolated himself even though many hate it.  Obi Wan did it, Yoda did it, and finally Luke did it.  All failed at something big, all 3 hid themselves away.  Luke could have survived the force projection, but I digress.  The movie is really good and in 20 years will be remembered and revered much more fondly than most want to admit.

I agree with all of this. I just have a different conclusion from it than you. 

The movie is not perfect.

It is compelling.

Visually, it's stunning.

Snoke became more relevant after his death than before, like Palpatine.

Rey can be nobody, and it's fine.

The kamikaze scene is top five in Star Wars lore. And off the top of my head responding to this I can't think of the other four. It was a stunning scene, visually as well as phonically (the choice to make it stone silent in a universe of sound effects & major scores was brilliant).

Luke's post-ROTJ choices were cool. It's in line with other post-power Jedi.

The movie is good. Not really good, and this is the only place we really disagree in this post.  It may be remembered more fondly than it is today in 20 years, but its warts will be better examined after the initial rush has worn away.

 

[Landlord]

The movie is good. Not really good, and this is the only place we really disagree in this post. 

To be fair, that's a long ways from your claims of it being bad when you first saw it.

 

[knapplc]

Bad can be relative. Maybe I wasn't so greatly clear on that earlier.

It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Redux]

I have raised these points before and you've castigated me for being an un-fan. What the heck, bro?

Well, I don't doubt your fandom of the original trilogy.  But I absolutely do question your judgement when it comes to giving the new films a fair shake.

Saw it today.  Really wanted to like it.  Really didn't.  Again. Bleh.  I could go on and on. Like this movie went on and on. 

This is likely the last of these movies I see in a theater.  They've lost me.  If this is what they're going to produce from now on, I guess I'll just let the present die & cherish my childhood memories from the past. 

And as for raising those points before, I looked back and basically everything I said today I said immediately after seeing it the first time.

I'm going to mirror Landlord a bit here.

The good:

-Snoke was fantastic, so well done.  Not a sith but powerful!  Lightsaber unnecessary because he is so powerful and all knowing.  Then, he dies in an amazing scene.  Seriously did not see that coming, I really expected him to like regenerate or something.  But no, just flopped over in two pieces.  The fact he was nobody actually made it better, I'm glad he wasn't Plagueis, Sifo Deus or Gallus Rax.  His throne room was awesome, the lightsaber battle was also slick as hell.

-Daisy Ridley, really nailed the vunerable lost soul with raw potential thing.  Love her, can't wait to see her come full circle.

-Adam Driver, homerun.  LOVE that he is being handed the reigns to be the big bad after all the speculation of his conflicted position.  Not even Vader got to be the true big bad, not once.  Kylo Ren is a great character.

-Chewbacca was about perfect, not too much but just enough.

-Leia really got to shine in her swan song.

-Crait was an awesome planet and visually it was just beyond fascinating.

-Holdo and the suicide lightspeed shot through the destroyer was an absolute achievement.  Beautiful.  In retrospect it's almost a shame they didn't have Leia go down with the ship and have Holdo take her place as General. Hindsight 20/20 unfortunately.  That and Laura Dern was terrific, would have liked to see her in the next.

-FINALLY, a freaking Star Wars movie remembered what Yoda is SUPPOSED to look like!  Seriously!

-Poe is such a fun character, funny but courageous and all that jazz.

-Luke force projection battle was too good.  Man Mark Hamill still had it, how cool to see that after all this time.  And was it not just freaking perfect to have him chuck the lightsaber over his shoulder?!!?!  2 year wait after TFA and he just goes "Meh...junk.  leave my planet".  Force Ghost Luke is going to be bone chillingly cool to see in 2 years.  Damn, Luke was awesome!  He was still Luke but like more badass than ever!

The bad:

-2 movies, and it is BEYOND evident that Captain Phasma was merely a way to sell a chrome stormtrooper action figure.  What a complete waste.  You could have random stormtrooper #7 with a different colored shoulder pad to indicate rank fill the role in either movie and literally nothing would be different.

-John Boyega as Finn is good, don't get me wrong.  But they clearly had no clue what to do with him in this movie.

-Benicio Del Toro, unecessary.

-The whole Casino subplot could have been cut and made the runtime shorter and nobody would complain.  Too bad, it could have been a lot better.  Finn and Rose could have simply infiltrated the First Order ship without the detour, would have been way more interesting to watch an extended infiltration mission instead of lollygagging around with the race horses etc.  Oh well.

-We have all wanted to see Leia do force stuff.......but that was straight out of a Stanley Kubrick idea journal.  Like that took me out of it honestly.  Not a fan of that scene, probably my biggest gripe since the decision to insert Hayden into ROTJ.

-Still no Knights of Ren, after all the waiting.

I'm sure I'll think of more, that was a lot to digest.  SO much happened but almost nothing happened, heard it said that way yesterday and it rings so true.  I want to see it again to truly rank it, but it's towards the top.

So, you agreed with me all along?

 

[whateveritis1224]

Listened to a podcast called Blank Check (decent podcast which started out looking at the Prequels and then moved onto looking at directors who received "Blank Checks" for movies).  Can't remember exactly but it was basically TFA was an homage to Star Wars and TLJ was different.

I've been vocal about my thoughts of TLJ and bottom line is I have very mixed feelings about TLJ.  Is it a good Star Wars movie?  Debatable but I lean towards yes.  Is it a good continuation of TFA?  I'd say no because there are too many differences in characters in a time frame too close to the end of TFA (literally hours).  Is it a good Saga movie?  Again I'd say no because there was no continuity in characterizations between both TLJ and the other movies. TLJ would have been better accepted as a movie if it wasn't a Saga movie.  If the movie did not involve the major players of the Sequel Trilogy and was just a movie by itself, you wouldn't have to worry about the 40 years of Luke Skywalker fans complaining about his characterization.  

I think my biggest issue is that it just feels like TLJ is a series of missed opportunities.  One of the deleted scenes has Finn throwing what Phasma did in TFA (lowering the shields to Starkiller Base) back at her which causes the stormtroopers surrounding them to side eye glance at eachother.  You know what would have been cooler than Canto Bight?  Finn drumming up a stormtrooper rebellion seeing as they are child soldiers stolen by the First Order.

Even within its own story as is, it doesn't make sense for Holdo to keep the plan as close to her chest for as long as she does (or at least not telling Poe).  You can't have her be standoffish and antagonistic to a "hero" for most of the movie and then at the last second tell everyone that you actually like him.  The only reason Poe did not know about the plan to escape the ship (especially since he was 100% on board once he actually learned that there was a plan besides run until they die) is to provide the audience with a gotcha moment.  An easy way to make it better is to make it a spy hunt with Holdo informing Poe that there is a plan besides just hope but it's on a need to know basis because there might be a spy.  How could the First Order suddenly have the technology to track through hyperspace now?  It's just not possible.  So Poe either sends Finn off on the Canto Bight side trip to close off that angle (or even as a way to get him off the ship to point they spy hunters away from him), or Poe, Finn, and Rose are the leaders of the Spy hunt.

Here is another article that presents my issues (going over some of the same issues described here, but better than I can):  https://www.theodysseyonline.com/theory-rian-johnson-never-star-wars-life