talent coaching recruiting stars.......

robsker said:
Husker_x said:
robsker said:
melscott62 said:
BIGREDFAN_in_OMAHA said:
We'll have some answers in 11 days.
Click to expand...

whoa... a post about the actual thread.. thanks.

I agree. the scary thing about the season is that so much depends on bo IMO. while he has SAID all of the right things, and is a very good D coordinator, we don't know how he will handle the transition to HC. Billy boy didn't do so well. I am counting on him being above average, and thus the 7 wins. but if he isn't... we could be looking at another losing season. you know and it might take time for bo to learn stuff. we could have a losing season and B o sill turn out OK. its a tough situation
Click to expand...

Melscott:

I'll answer the thread content head on. First, I agree that 7 wins is what to expect --- and that 6 wins is not that unlikely. That said, I am not convinced that NU has that much talent. Of course relativistic measurements are best when such a statement is made. I'd say that OU, TT, Texas and Missouri almost certainly have more talent (better combination of accross the board size, strength, speed, quickness = athleticism which is coupled with developed football skill). Also, the top 3-5 of every major conference in the nation would also have more talent than NU. That is, at least 20 or so programs have superior talent compared to NU. There is likely an equal number of programs now --- say 20 or so --- that are comparable in talent (TA&M, Colorado, Kansas among them). So, NU has, most likely #30 or so in talent, or there abouts. If anything, this assessment is granting NU more than it is due --- I'm probably over estimating the talent some. Given our schedule with Oklahoma, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Texas Tech, and VT, we play six teams with better (or at the very least comparable talent) --- that is tough.

So, if we do win just seven games I'd not say it was coaching but rather our talent level that is the limiting factor.

It is true that problems with conditioning, heart, preparation, scheme and lack of confidence were all contributers to the carnage of last season. Most all of that should be fixed (except the lack of confidence --- I don't care what anyone says, the devastation of last year doe matter this year, the confidence lost will have lasting effects). Pelini and crew will address this all. But.... he is limited with this group of players.

Hopefully he can get these kids to over-achieve so that hope is restored and so that recruits will be more prone to go to NU. That said, until such happens, not much will change --- no matter how good the coaching, mid-conferecne to upper mid-conference standing is all one can expect.
Click to expand...
1.) You believe this based upon....?

2.) Those five things you mentioned as contributing factors to the 2007 season is comparable to saying that Nazi Germany's problems with manpower, inferior technology, a dual-front war, garrisoning Italy, and an unreasonable dictator without a doubt contributed to its defeat. What, exactly, is left to talk about? Bad coaching masks good talent. I see no way for you to make a statement about the overall talent level of this team because you have nothing to go on. Quitters are always quitters like night always follows day? What's broken today can't be fixed tomorrow? You may be right about the talent level. It should be abundantly clear come the middle of October. But as many have said, this isn't Bo Pelini's first rodeo. It isn't his first time taking the hand of a defensive unit that lacked belief in itself. You don't have to be a homer, but the coaches seem to disagree with your assessment.
Click to expand...

Melscott:

You are correct what I stated does equate to the description of Nazi Germany's problems --- in that both assessments are true.

As for how I can assert that we likely have mid-conference to upper-midconference level talent (rather than top 25 or 30 talent) is based upon three or so observations. One is the lack of team speed on both sides of the ball. Watch Florida, USC, Ohio State, LSU, for that matter most of the SEC and Pac 10... any of the teams in the top say 20 or so in the nation and you will see anywhere from night and day difference in speed relative to NU (NU of course much, much slower) to perhaps just a modest speed advantage over NU. Two, check the physicality of the LB, the secondary the WR of the top tier programs and look at the guns they are sporting compared to the guys at NU (on average). Look at the fat of the guys in the trenches at NU relative to the top tier teams. Watch the DL and OL at NU manhandled game after game --- and you have to conclude that the strength and strength-to-weight ratio at the top programs exceeds that at NU by anywhere from a meaningful but small amount to a large and overwhelming amount. Three, in terms of skill position elusiveness, open field explosiveness, ability to break tackles, etc. the skill position players at NU, as a group (going say two-three deep in the rotation) are clearly and obviously nowhere near that of the top 2-3 programs in each conference and more akin to the next 2-3 in each conference. This is clear.

I point out that the Huskers have mid-conference to upper mid-conference talent so as to temper the expectations that are placed on the coaches here. I keep reading that NU has 9-10 win talent on the squad and all the coaches need to do is get them playing and it will happen. This implys that if NU wins 6-7 games instead of 9-10 that people will go off on these coaches and say that they failed. That is unfair to these coaches. The talent here is 6-7 win talent against the schedule we have. If NU wins 8 games then Pelini is a miracle worker. Recognizing the talent limitations at NU enables a fair assessment of the coaches. Without people pointing out the deficiencies in talent, if NU were to win 8 games "only" many would brand Pelini a failure (or at least question his ability) when, in reality, they should be mightily impressed.

Note: for the sake of the argument here I have included physicality (size, conditioning, speed, strength, strength-to-weight ratio) as part of talent.
Click to expand...

you actually didn't quote me, but I'll respond anyway.... First the lack of speed can very much be attributed to the whole out of shape, out of position, overweight, thinking to much thing. if you read the article about LSU that hack posted the other day you will see that LSU's super quick defense....wasn't that fast. their LB that lead the team in tackles did not even get drafted. why you ask?? he was incredibly SLOW. bo's defense was simple and attacking, and it allowed him to play fast. it was the polar opposite of cos.

2nd physicality.... again coaching CAN make a huge difference there. both in bringing it out of players, and SITTING players that dont. do you really think Ricky Thenarse would have rode the bench with Bo?

3rd we might not be top 10 in skills position, but I find it hard to believe you are even singling this group out. the rb's of lucky, helu, castille is well above average, and while our WR are not big names, but to question the raw talent is comical. people like holt, paul, henry, gilleylen...... we all know cally did not like to play young guys. the question is was that because he was incompetent or was that because they weren't good enough. I know where my vote is.

as for the coaches... I totally agree with you. as I stated at the end of the original post I think TO(from 1995) wins 8-10 games with this group. but thats why he's TO and just about every coach who has ever coached this game is not. to expect a first time coach to come in and totally fix this mess is totally unfair.

but lets attribute the losses correctly. its the situation... not the players.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
melscott62 said:
robsker said:
Husker_x said:
robsker said:
melscott62 said:
BIGREDFAN_in_OMAHA said:
We'll have some answers in 11 days.
Click to expand...

whoa... a post about the actual thread.. thanks.

I agree. the scary thing about the season is that so much depends on bo IMO. while he has SAID all of the right things, and is a very good D coordinator, we don't know how he will handle the transition to HC. Billy boy didn't do so well. I am counting on him being above average, and thus the 7 wins. but if he isn't... we could be looking at another losing season. you know and it might take time for bo to learn stuff. we could have a losing season and B o sill turn out OK. its a tough situation
Click to expand...

Melscott:

I'll answer the thread content head on. First, I agree that 7 wins is what to expect --- and that 6 wins is not that unlikely. That said, I am not convinced that NU has that much talent. Of course relativistic measurements are best when such a statement is made. I'd say that OU, TT, Texas and Missouri almost certainly have more talent (better combination of accross the board size, strength, speed, quickness = athleticism which is coupled with developed football skill). Also, the top 3-5 of every major conference in the nation would also have more talent than NU. That is, at least 20 or so programs have superior talent compared to NU. There is likely an equal number of programs now --- say 20 or so --- that are comparable in talent (TA&M, Colorado, Kansas among them). So, NU has, most likely #30 or so in talent, or there abouts. If anything, this assessment is granting NU more than it is due --- I'm probably over estimating the talent some. Given our schedule with Oklahoma, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Texas Tech, and VT, we play six teams with better (or at the very least comparable talent) --- that is tough.

So, if we do win just seven games I'd not say it was coaching but rather our talent level that is the limiting factor.

It is true that problems with conditioning, heart, preparation, scheme and lack of confidence were all contributers to the carnage of last season. Most all of that should be fixed (except the lack of confidence --- I don't care what anyone says, the devastation of last year doe matter this year, the confidence lost will have lasting effects). Pelini and crew will address this all. But.... he is limited with this group of players.

Hopefully he can get these kids to over-achieve so that hope is restored and so that recruits will be more prone to go to NU. That said, until such happens, not much will change --- no matter how good the coaching, mid-conferecne to upper mid-conference standing is all one can expect.
Click to expand...
1.) You believe this based upon....?

2.) Those five things you mentioned as contributing factors to the 2007 season is comparable to saying that Nazi Germany's problems with manpower, inferior technology, a dual-front war, garrisoning Italy, and an unreasonable dictator without a doubt contributed to its defeat. What, exactly, is left to talk about? Bad coaching masks good talent. I see no way for you to make a statement about the overall talent level of this team because you have nothing to go on. Quitters are always quitters like night always follows day? What's broken today can't be fixed tomorrow? You may be right about the talent level. It should be abundantly clear come the middle of October. But as many have said, this isn't Bo Pelini's first rodeo. It isn't his first time taking the hand of a defensive unit that lacked belief in itself. You don't have to be a homer, but the coaches seem to disagree with your assessment.
Click to expand...

Melscott:

You are correct what I stated does equate to the description of Nazi Germany's problems --- in that both assessments are true.

As for how I can assert that we likely have mid-conference to upper-midconference level talent (rather than top 25 or 30 talent) is based upon three or so observations. One is the lack of team speed on both sides of the ball. Watch Florida, USC, Ohio State, LSU, for that matter most of the SEC and Pac 10... any of the teams in the top say 20 or so in the nation and you will see anywhere from night and day difference in speed relative to NU (NU of course much, much slower) to perhaps just a modest speed advantage over NU. Two, check the physicality of the LB, the secondary the WR of the top tier programs and look at the guns they are sporting compared to the guys at NU (on average). Look at the fat of the guys in the trenches at NU relative to the top tier teams. Watch the DL and OL at NU manhandled game after game --- and you have to conclude that the strength and strength-to-weight ratio at the top programs exceeds that at NU by anywhere from a meaningful but small amount to a large and overwhelming amount. Three, in terms of skill position elusiveness, open field explosiveness, ability to break tackles, etc. the skill position players at NU, as a group (going say two-three deep in the rotation) are clearly and obviously nowhere near that of the top 2-3 programs in each conference and more akin to the next 2-3 in each conference. This is clear.

I point out that the Huskers have mid-conference to upper mid-conference talent so as to temper the expectations that are placed on the coaches here. I keep reading that NU has 9-10 win talent on the squad and all the coaches need to do is get them playing and it will happen. This implys that if NU wins 6-7 games instead of 9-10 that people will go off on these coaches and say that they failed. That is unfair to these coaches. The talent here is 6-7 win talent against the schedule we have. If NU wins 8 games then Pelini is a miracle worker. Recognizing the talent limitations at NU enables a fair assessment of the coaches. Without people pointing out the deficiencies in talent, if NU were to win 8 games "only" many would brand Pelini a failure (or at least question his ability) when, in reality, they should be mightily impressed.

Note: for the sake of the argument here I have included physicality (size, conditioning, speed, strength, strength-to-weight ratio) as part of talent.
Click to expand...

you actually didn't quote me, but I'll respond anyway.... First the lack of speed can very much be attributed to the whole out of shape, out of position, overweight, thinking to much thing. if you read the article about LSU that hack posted the other day you will see that LSU's super quick defense....wasn't that fast. their LB that lead the team in tackles did not even get drafted. why you ask?? he was incredibly SLOW. bo's defense was simple and attacking, and it allowed him to play fast. it was the polar opposite of cos.

2nd physicality.... again coaching CAN make a huge difference there. both in bringing it out of players, and SITTING players that dont. do you really think Ricky Thenarse would have rode the bench with Bo?

3rd we might not be top 10 in skills position, but I find it hard to believe you are even singling this group out. the rb's of lucky, helu, castille is well above average, and while our WR are not big names, but to question the raw talent is comical. people like holt, paul, henry, gilleylen...... we all know cally did not like to play young guys. the question is was that because he was incompetent or was that because they weren't good enough. I know where my vote is.

as for the coaches... I totally agree with you. as I stated at the end of the original post I think TO(from 1995) wins 8-10 games with this group. but thats why he's TO and just about every coach who has ever coached this game is not. to expect a first time coach to come in and totally fix this mess is totally unfair.

but lets attribute the losses correctly. its the situation... not the players.
Click to expand...

I think that is very accurate.

 
melscott62 said:
robsker said:
Husker_x said:
robsker said:
melscott62 said:
BIGREDFAN_in_OMAHA said:
We'll have some answers in 11 days.
Click to expand...

whoa... a post about the actual thread.. thanks.

I agree. the scary thing about the season is that so much depends on bo IMO. while he has SAID all of the right things, and is a very good D coordinator, we don't know how he will handle the transition to HC. Billy boy didn't do so well. I am counting on him being above average, and thus the 7 wins. but if he isn't... we could be looking at another losing season. you know and it might take time for bo to learn stuff. we could have a losing season and B o sill turn out OK. its a tough situation
Click to expand...

Melscott:

I'll answer the thread content head on. First, I agree that 7 wins is what to expect --- and that 6 wins is not that unlikely. That said, I am not convinced that NU has that much talent. Of course relativistic measurements are best when such a statement is made. I'd say that OU, TT, Texas and Missouri almost certainly have more talent (better combination of accross the board size, strength, speed, quickness = athleticism which is coupled with developed football skill). Also, the top 3-5 of every major conference in the nation would also have more talent than NU. That is, at least 20 or so programs have superior talent compared to NU. There is likely an equal number of programs now --- say 20 or so --- that are comparable in talent (TA&M, Colorado, Kansas among them). So, NU has, most likely #30 or so in talent, or there abouts. If anything, this assessment is granting NU more than it is due --- I'm probably over estimating the talent some. Given our schedule with Oklahoma, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Texas Tech, and VT, we play six teams with better (or at the very least comparable talent) --- that is tough.

So, if we do win just seven games I'd not say it was coaching but rather our talent level that is the limiting factor.

It is true that problems with conditioning, heart, preparation, scheme and lack of confidence were all contributers to the carnage of last season. Most all of that should be fixed (except the lack of confidence --- I don't care what anyone says, the devastation of last year doe matter this year, the confidence lost will have lasting effects). Pelini and crew will address this all. But.... he is limited with this group of players.

Hopefully he can get these kids to over-achieve so that hope is restored and so that recruits will be more prone to go to NU. That said, until such happens, not much will change --- no matter how good the coaching, mid-conferecne to upper mid-conference standing is all one can expect.
Click to expand...
1.) You believe this based upon....?

2.) Those five things you mentioned as contributing factors to the 2007 season is comparable to saying that Nazi Germany's problems with manpower, inferior technology, a dual-front war, garrisoning Italy, and an unreasonable dictator without a doubt contributed to its defeat. What, exactly, is left to talk about? Bad coaching masks good talent. I see no way for you to make a statement about the overall talent level of this team because you have nothing to go on. Quitters are always quitters like night always follows day? What's broken today can't be fixed tomorrow? You may be right about the talent level. It should be abundantly clear come the middle of October. But as many have said, this isn't Bo Pelini's first rodeo. It isn't his first time taking the hand of a defensive unit that lacked belief in itself. You don't have to be a homer, but the coaches seem to disagree with your assessment.
Click to expand...

Melscott:

You are correct what I stated does equate to the description of Nazi Germany's problems --- in that both assessments are true.

As for how I can assert that we likely have mid-conference to upper-midconference level talent (rather than top 25 or 30 talent) is based upon three or so observations. One is the lack of team speed on both sides of the ball. Watch Florida, USC, Ohio State, LSU, for that matter most of the SEC and Pac 10... any of the teams in the top say 20 or so in the nation and you will see anywhere from night and day difference in speed relative to NU (NU of course much, much slower) to perhaps just a modest speed advantage over NU. Two, check the physicality of the LB, the secondary the WR of the top tier programs and look at the guns they are sporting compared to the guys at NU (on average). Look at the fat of the guys in the trenches at NU relative to the top tier teams. Watch the DL and OL at NU manhandled game after game --- and you have to conclude that the strength and strength-to-weight ratio at the top programs exceeds that at NU by anywhere from a meaningful but small amount to a large and overwhelming amount. Three, in terms of skill position elusiveness, open field explosiveness, ability to break tackles, etc. the skill position players at NU, as a group (going say two-three deep in the rotation) are clearly and obviously nowhere near that of the top 2-3 programs in each conference and more akin to the next 2-3 in each conference. This is clear.

I point out that the Huskers have mid-conference to upper mid-conference talent so as to temper the expectations that are placed on the coaches here. I keep reading that NU has 9-10 win talent on the squad and all the coaches need to do is get them playing and it will happen. This implys that if NU wins 6-7 games instead of 9-10 that people will go off on these coaches and say that they failed. That is unfair to these coaches. The talent here is 6-7 win talent against the schedule we have. If NU wins 8 games then Pelini is a miracle worker. Recognizing the talent limitations at NU enables a fair assessment of the coaches. Without people pointing out the deficiencies in talent, if NU were to win 8 games "only" many would brand Pelini a failure (or at least question his ability) when, in reality, they should be mightily impressed.

Note: for the sake of the argument here I have included physicality (size, conditioning, speed, strength, strength-to-weight ratio) as part of talent.
Click to expand...

you actually didn't quote me, but I'll respond anyway.... First the lack of speed can very much be attributed to the whole out of shape, out of position, overweight, thinking to much thing. if you read the article about LSU that hack posted the other day you will see that LSU's super quick defense....wasn't that fast. their LB that lead the team in tackles did not even get drafted. why you ask?? he was incredibly SLOW. bo's defense was simple and attacking, and it allowed him to play fast. it was the polar opposite of cos.

2nd physicality.... again coaching CAN make a huge difference there. both in bringing it out of players, and SITTING players that dont. do you really think Ricky Thenarse would have rode the bench with Bo?

3rd we might not be top 10 in skills position, but I find it hard to believe you are even singling this group out. the rb's of lucky, helu, castille is well above average, and while our WR are not big names, but to question the raw talent is comical. people like holt, paul, henry, gilleylen...... we all know cally did not like to play young guys. the question is was that because he was incompetent or was that because they weren't good enough. I know where my vote is.

as for the coaches... I totally agree with you. as I stated at the end of the original post I think TO(from 1995) wins 8-10 games with this group. but thats why he's TO and just about every coach who has ever coached this game is not. to expect a first time coach to come in and totally fix this mess is totally unfair.

but lets attribute the losses correctly. its the situation... not the players.
Click to expand...
You have some good points --- the lack of speed may be partially (or entirely) due to the, as you say "out of shape, out of position, overweight, thinking to much thing," and I'd add lack of confidence, lack of desire. true enough. How much is situational limitation and how much is physical limitation is not something we can evaluate very well. The strength can as well be mostly conditioning at that time. I really hope all this is the case. If so maybe Nu gets 8 wins. and if so, pelini is a miracle worker.

No need to ascribe blame to anyone and so losses do not need to be attributed to anyone or anything. It is simply part of the sport. I certainly would not blame players or coaches. My main concern is that these coaches may be being set up for undue criticism --- you seem to agree. My intent is not to shift criticism to players --- no criticism is to be given to anyone. I'm really excited for the season --- I think that the team will play hard and fight like mad --- and that is all anyone can ask for.

We need to not place undo pressure on the coaching staff (or, for that matter, the players). That was the point I endeavor to make.

 
robsker said:
You have some good points --- the lack of speed may be partially (or entirely) due to the, as you say "out of shape, out of position, overweight, thinking to much thing," and I'd add lack of confidence, lack of desire. true enough. How much is situational limitation and how much is physical limitation is not something we can evaluate very well. The strength can as well be mostly conditioning at that time. I really hope all this is the case. If so maybe Nu gets 8 wins. and if so, pelini is a miracle worker.

No need to ascribe blame to anyone and so losses do not need to be attributed to anyone or anything. It is simply part of the sport. I certainly would not blame players or coaches. My main concern is that these coaches may be being set up for undue criticism --- you seem to agree. My intent is not to shift criticism to players --- no criticism is to be given to anyone. I'm really excited for the season --- I think that the team will play hard and fight like mad --- and that is all anyone can ask for.

We need to not place undo pressure on the coaching staff (or, for that matter, the players). That was the point I endeavor to make.
Click to expand...

like it or not... thats part of NU football. I remember when people wanted TO gone. its shameful... but I guess its part of a winning program.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
melscott62 said:
robsker said:
You have some good points --- the lack of speed may be partially (or entirely) due to the, as you say "out of shape, out of position, overweight, thinking to much thing," and I'd add lack of confidence, lack of desire. true enough. How much is situational limitation and how much is physical limitation is not something we can evaluate very well. The strength can as well be mostly conditioning at that time. I really hope all this is the case. If so maybe Nu gets 8 wins. and if so, pelini is a miracle worker.

No need to ascribe blame to anyone and so losses do not need to be attributed to anyone or anything. It is simply part of the sport. I certainly would not blame players or coaches. My main concern is that these coaches may be being set up for undue criticism --- you seem to agree. My intent is not to shift criticism to players --- no criticism is to be given to anyone. I'm really excited for the season --- I think that the team will play hard and fight like mad --- and that is all anyone can ask for.

We need to not place undo pressure on the coaching staff (or, for that matter, the players). That was the point I endeavor to make.
Click to expand...

like it or not... thats part of NU football. I remember when people wanted TO gone. its shameful... but I guess its part of a winning program.
Click to expand...
Quite true you are.

If there is a silver lining in the "cloud" of our beloved Huskers struggling these past 5-6 or so years it has been to get us (long term fans --- for me since I attended NU first in 1983 to the present) to appreciate all the more what the big exciting wins all meant. Now, I'd think, rather than the a fan base with an expectation of always winning and only appreciating the players/coaches efforts if a MNC is won we are now, or at least should be, growing into a fan base that simply appreciates the team and staff's efforts even if the W's are not double digit every season. We will really appreciate and enjoy it all the more when the next double digit season does come

 
Hell lets just skip the next 9 days and raise hell durring the game. Thats my first thoughts... :clap

The rest will work itself out.

:koolaid2:

GBR

 
HuskerfaninOkieland said:
this isn't the englishcompositionboard.com though. everyone is gonna make grammatical and spelling errors. big whoop. just read thru em and move on.
Click to expand...
whoa! i thought i just made a post there until i saw your icon.

dude, small cap typing is my thing.

MINE.

kthnxbye!

 
I believe the conference is too good (all around) to pick a number of wins & losses. OU and MU are the only teams that separate themselves from the rest. To beat them it will take more than a few turnovers, bad field position & abundant penalties. However there isnt that much separation among 3-9. And those things previously mentioned (along with playing good football) can make the difference.

3-9 > Tech, KU, UT, Neb, OSU, A&M, CU

 
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