Taylor Martinez bleeds Husker Red....

Knapp, all I am trying to do is be realistic about Taylor, but we may just be splitting hairs here. As far as words go, as you say. I'll just agree that Taylor is the best option for us at the position, and I think we can agree that he is not very far along as a quarterback, just making up for it with his feet, which opens up a lot of options for us.

Many of the things asked of a quarterback from footwork to passing to reading defenses/blitzes pre and post-snap to the complete mental aspect of the game, are areas where Taylor is extremely raw in, which is why you will see him called "a WR/RB/athlete playing QB". He is developing, and he is compensating for that with his feet, and we are able to maximize production out of him in the passing game anyway because many defenses have allowed our TEs/WRs/Kyler Reeds to make a killing of their secondaries in trying to stop Taylor on the ground.

I forget who it was that put it this way but I found it astute and have been using it quite a bit since, but in Taylor's case as far as the passing numbers go, the goal is to achieve as high a production-to-talent ratio as possible. When there is no threat with his feet at all, his value to the position drops precipitously. But in time this will be less and less the case, or at least you would hope so. Taylor will have to make leaps in this part of the game, which is best done in the offseason after the bullets stop flying, and I hope as anyone else that the lightbulb really comes on.

I don't think you will disagree with me here so I may be rehashing, but just in case.

 
When TM is healthy he's likely our most effective guy, he's a gamebreaker and in order to stop him a D has to open itself up in other areas. But as-is I just don't see the commitment to him. He's reliant on his athleticism. A freshman running-qb that can't really run? He was lost out there Saturday. CG should've gotten a shot Saturday. If Lee was really healthy I think he might have started every game since TM got hurt against Mizzou. Unfortunately Lee getting injured the last two seasons may have been the difference-maker that lost us these last two heartbreaker CCG's. Lee is nothing great but when healthy he's a credible game-manager with a solid arm that can make decent plays with his feet.

As far as rumors of TM leaving go I don't buy it. TM started and stayed in the game when he was floundering. Bo made it known TM was his guy. Later TM was talking to Osborne. I don't see that happening if TM was bolting. He'll be here and he'll improve. Eventually he should be a legit qb that can handle a team like OU even if he isn't at his best physically.

 
I don't understand how a fan base that watched Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Scott Frost and Eric Crouch dominate their positions, win a combined three million games (I rounded up), win a combined three Mythical National Championships, one Heisman (and one robbed), and score a Brazilian points can possibly fail to grasp the value Taylor's athleticism brings to the QB position. That's where I'm seeing the disconnect here, when we doubt the guy's qualifications, and the players he reminds us of most are the best we've ever had at the position.

It's fair to say he wasn't terribly effective in the latter half of the season, sure, but it's also fair to say he was injured and incapable of being effective, and he was a Redshirt Freshman to boot. Again, even the great Tommie Frazier stunk it up his Freshman year (see: 1993 Orange Bowl).

 
I didn't devalue the athleticism Taylor brings as I think it's very valuable. All I did is emphasize the trade-off and provide a reason for why I don't call him a complete QB. Those guys, were often called running backs playing QB. And I'm sure Tommie knew how to read blitzes before they came which is something Taylor is completely confused about so far. Don't take this as a huge knock on Taylor because all those can come with time, but to say he is a complete QB isn't an accurate description of the situation right now.

It's fair to say he wasn't terribly effective in the latter half of the season, sure, but it's also fair to say he was injured and incapable of being effective, and he was a Redshirt Freshman to boot.
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These are all reasons why I understand the offensive production has dropped so much in the latter half of the season. At least you are not saying it is Watson's fault. I agree completely. He was injured and a redshirt freshman. That's the long and short of it.

 
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zoogies said:
I didn't devalue the athleticism Taylor brings as I think it's very valuable. All I did is emphasize the trade-off and provide a reason for why I don't call him a complete QB. Those guys, were often called running backs playing QB. And I'm sure Tommie knew how to read blitzes before they came which is something Taylor is completely confused about so far. Don't take this as a huge knock on Taylor because all those can come with time, but to say he is a complete QB isn't an accurate description of the situation right now.

It's fair to say he wasn't terribly effective in the latter half of the season, sure, but it's also fair to say he was injured and incapable of being effective, and he was a Redshirt Freshman to boot.
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These are all reasons why I understand the offensive production has dropped so much in the latter half of the season. At least you are not saying it is Watson's fault. I agree completely. He was injured and a redshirt freshman. That's the long and short of it.
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I guess I don't understand your point, then. Nobody expects Taylor Martinez to be Joe Montana or Randall Cunningham. They expect him to be the best option available this season, which is what we were debating. There isn't a "complete" QB on our roster by the standards you're outlining, as Lee frequently demonstrated difficulty reading and reacting to blitzes last season, and Cody is... well, Cody. He's a work in progress.

And yes, Watson is to blame for our offensive production (being the Offensive Coordinator), but that's a different discussion. ;)

 
I sort of lost track what we are even debating here. At some point on I was just trying to paint a picture of Taylor's skillset. I'll just agree that he was the best option this season, but I thought we were debating Taylor in terms of his mental grasp of the quarterback position.

On that different discussion, you first say: Taylor was less effective, but it's understandable, because he was injured and not able to be effective as a result. You then say: lack of offensive production with injured Taylor is Watson's fault. I mean, really? If Taylor is not effective, the offense isn't. You're right, though. It's another discussion and one being had in probably 20 threads at once, so enough on that.

 
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zoogies said:
I sort of lost track what we are even debating here. At some point on I was just trying to paint a picture of Taylor's skillset. I'll just agree that he was the best option this season, but I thought we were debating Taylor in terms of his mental grasp of the quarterback position.

On that different discussion, you first say: Taylor was less effective, but it's understandable, because he was injured and not able to be effective as a result. You then say: lack of offensive production with injured Taylor is Watson's fault. I mean, really? If Taylor is not effective, the offense isn't. You're right, though. It's another discussion and one being had in probably 20 threads at once, so enough on that.
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We were debating which QB should have started the season, and which would have had a better season.

And the offensive woes aren't something we can simply pin on one guy OR the other. There is plenty of reason to blame the injury AND Watson.

 
Fair enough, knapp. Apologies for losing track.

On the second point, you'll have to convince me that having an effective offense with a completely ineffective QB is a reasonable expectation before I would acknowledge that point. Pre-emptively want to deflect the stuff about Green should have been ready as I think that has been rehashed too many times to count. If the point is that injured Taylor should still have been effective, you will need to convince me that Taylor minus his strength (forcing defenses to defend 11-on-11) should be expected to be effective.

I'll say that things you can criticize him on are not preparing Green more and not showing more faith in Green. I don't know if Green was prepared to enter the A&M game that week, since he certainly wasn't prepared leading up to OU...but we are getting into the realm of Bo's call now. More and more I'm starting to think it was Bo's call alone. But that is stuff you can either believe or dismiss and I won't hold it against you for either.

 
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knapplc said:
zoogies said:
I wouldn't say he was given the job so much as it was felt that his big play running ability overrode the inconsistencies/weaknesses in other parts of the game. A prudent, deliberate decision, as you would say.
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You're parsing words here. Of course he won the job - his big play ability overrode that of Lee's and Green's. He outperformed Lee's Junior season as a Redshirt Freshman. You can phrase it however you like - bottom line is, Taylor was the better QB and he won the job. On-field production supports this, and I've posted the stats.

Taylor is not a better QB all around but I won't argue that we've shown we can produce with Taylor in all facets of the game, although we haven't seen healthy Taylor vs top defense aside from Texas yet. The more exotic looks/blitzes defenses give can really rattle Taylor. Still, what we have seen is pretty outstanding maximization of production, passing and running out of Taylor considering his weaknesses in the passing game and just reading with QB responsibilities. Bo was right - we really can lean on the dynamic big play ability of Taylor and watch that open up things for us everywhere.
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Of course Taylor is a better all-around QB. Again, I've posted the stats, and they're in support of my argument. More total offense, more touchdowns, better passing percentage, better QB Rating, better Yards Per Completion, better rushing stats, all done against overall better competition... what else do you need to prove that he's a better overall QB? Go look up the stats at NCAA.org if you don't believe me. There isn't a single major statistical category that Martinez doesn't lead Lee and Green in - and he's a Redshirt Freshman.
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WInning percentage of team when QB starts

Cody Green- 4-0 100%

Taylor Martinez- 8-3 73%

Zac Lee- 8-4 66%

2010- Points for team with QB as a starter, average

Green- 38.0

Martinez- 31.7

 
Those stats mean nothing to me. They weren't playing the same teams. I truly believe Taylor has legitimate chances to SHINE next year as our #1.

 
knapplc said:
I don't understand how a fan base that watched Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Scott Frost and Eric Crouch dominate their positions, win a combined three million games (I rounded up), win a combined three Mythical National Championships, one Heisman (and one robbed), and score a Brazilian points can possibly fail to grasp the value Taylor's athleticism brings to the QB position. That's where I'm seeing the disconnect here, when we doubt the guy's qualifications, and the players he reminds us of most are the best we've ever had at the position.

It's fair to say he wasn't terribly effective in the latter half of the season, sure, but it's also fair to say he was injured and incapable of being effective, and he was a Redshirt Freshman to boot. Again, even the great Tommie Frazier stunk it up his Freshman year (see: 1993 Orange Bowl).
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Taylor is a great athlete, no doubt. But other great athletes haven't always been great quarterbacks, Mickey Joseph, Jamal Lord to name a couple. While Tommie was amazing, we would have won those MNC's with Berringer at QB as well IMO. And Osborne is not calling the plays, and we aren't running the option anymore. Joe Ganz put up great numbers at QB without the ability to run like he had an XBOX controller directing him. Zac Taylor led the Huskers to a north title as well. I'd argue that if you took our 2008 offense and paired it with either our 2009 or 2010 defenses, that we would have won the Big 12 CCG both years. I would even go as far to say that if you gave Cody Green a full week to prepare for OU this year, we would have had just as much of a shot to win the CCG as we did with a gimpy Taylor.

Taylor was awful in the latter half, he started 3 games and we lost 2 and scored an average of 15.3 PPG in those 3 games

Here's Taylor's line in the last 3 games, Tell me after looking at these numbers that Cody Green couldn't have done the same, or that Zac Lee 2009 injured form couldn't have done the same.

42 Carries, 56 Yards ,1.33 YPC, 0 TD, 4 Fumbles

37 Completions, 67 Attempts, 417 Yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 55.2% Comp %, 78.5 Passer Rating

 
Whether or not injured Taylor should have started is really a different question than what Knapp was getting at which goes back to the decision at the beginning of the year.

In the context of that decision...let's remember what made Taylor an asset despite his deficiencies, was that he forced teams to defend 11-on-11, to recycle a common term used back in those days. Injured Taylor doesn't do that. Take away Taylor's game-breaking ability and he is just a poor QB, unfortunately. Actually, I'd say that Taylor without his big play threat, as poor as that's been, has actually been surprisingly better than I thought. But once he hits a cold spell, it's over. Personally, I thought Taylor's first half (minus the pick) was pretty good.

 
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zoogies said:
Whether or not injured Taylor should have started is really a different question than what Knapp was getting at which goes back to the decision at the beginning of the year.

In the context of that decision...let's remember what made Taylor an asset despite his deficiencies, was that he forced teams to defend 11-on-11, to recycle a common term used back in those days. Injured Taylor doesn't do that. Take away Taylor's game-breaking ability and he is just a poor QB, unfortunately. Actually, I'd say that Taylor without his big play threat, as poor as that's been, has actually been surprisingly better than I thought. But once he hits a cold spell, it's over. Personally, I thought Taylor's first half (minus the pick) was pretty good.
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Oh the decision at the beginning of the year? It worked great, absolutely. But the flaw in that decision was that we didn't have another QB in the program to run that scheme when Taylor got hurt where as Zac and Cody can run a similar offense. I think we would have been just as effective with Cody or Zac with Taylor running out in specific packages and playing slot WR. Can you imagine the threat you would have with Paul, Martinez and Reed on the field in the passing game as WR's? Throw in McNeill and Kinnie working underneath and we would have had a dynamic passing game with Helu and Burkhead running the ball as well.

 
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