The Death Penalty

[huskertim]

I don't think we can see the death penalty as vengance. When we serve vengence, how can we also serve justice. No one (or one society in this case) can serve two masters.

But we CAN serve 43?

I try to approach most things logically as I picture Leonard Nimoy in a thought cloud over my right shoulder.

But I'm still not sure why "Justice" is so dang important?

Logically, justice is adherrance to a code of law, the very principle upon which our republic is formed. Without this foundation how can the edifice of our society stand? It may not seem important to you, but it is to society as a whole and after all do not the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few, or the one?

 

[CornHOLIO]

I don't think we can see the death penalty as vengance. When we serve vengence, how can we also serve justice. No one (or one society in this case) can serve two masters.

But we CAN serve 43?

I try to approach most things logically as I picture Leonard Nimoy in a thought cloud over my right shoulder.

But I'm still not sure why "Justice" is so dang important?

Logically, justice is adherrance to a code of law, the very principle upon which our republic is formed. Without this foundation how can the edifice of our society stand? It may not seem important to you, but it is to society as a whole and after all do not the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few, or the one?

According to some of the cliche's they do, but I don't think they always should.

The majority of voters will almost always be attracted to the shinyest object.

Is it really a need?

 

[Mierin]

I've said I'm against the death penalty because I don't want the government doing things I wouldn't be willing to do myself.

But if I faced this guy it would be hard for me not to shoot him in the face. Worthless human being.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/10/us/vermont-wrong-way-car-crash/index.html

(CNN)Members of several close-knit neighboring communities in Vermont are mourning five teenagers who died in a fiery car crash over the weekend after a vehicle traveling in the wrong direction struck them, authorities said.

The driver of the other vehicle has been identified as Steven Bourgoin, 36, of Williston, Chittenden County State's Attorney T.J. Donovan said. He has a criminal history in two other states that includes domestic violence and driving under the influence, Donovan said.

While an officer was trying to pull one of the victims from the burning vehicle, Bourgoin stole the officer's vehicle and fled the scene, Williston Police Captain Michael Henry said.

As he attempted to escape he crashed into eight vehicles and was ejected from the police car, Henry said. The collision sent five people to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries, said Douglas, the hospital spokesman.

 

[Fru]

Death penalty is tricky for me. I think ultimately, I'm against it. But these are the competing thoughts in my mind.

- What if you're wrong? Putting innocent person to death is unconscionable. It's amazing to me how many people seem to be "Aw well, too bad" about putting innocent people to death.

- Cost. People argue about the cost "It's cheaper to let them rot in prison than it is to put them to death." Yeah maybe it does cost more to put them to death, but could one argue that that makes the community safer? There's a reason I spend a little more money on a nice winter coat than a cheap winter coat. Dangerous people don't become don't become any less dangerous if they're in prison, they become a greater threat to a more concentrated amount of people.

- Is life in prison a worse punishment? Possibly. (My short career working in corrections has somewhat changed my perspective) prisons still use solitary confinement which is incredibly damaging regarding a person's mental state. I've been down to those cells and they are no picnic. But on the flip side, when I briefly worked in corrections, I worked alongside 3 inmates, all were convicted murderers, however they all served a CNA type role in the particular unit I worked in. Not excusing what any of them did by any stretch, but as a function of the institution, they did contribute meaningful assistance. Not all murderers are Nikko Jenkins types.

- Justice/revenge. They aren't the same thing.

I ultimately side with being against it. However I see certain situations where it could certainly be justified.

 

[Fru]

Saw this article today, and thought I'd bump this thread.

http://journalstar.com/news/local/911/judge-pair-wrongfully-accused-of-murders-should-get-m/article_076d0728-4039-5c44-9cfd-1ce09e66615c.html

Interesting article about two people wrongly convicted of murder. This is where I'm stuck on the death penalty. I can't say that I wouldn't mind if a few particularly heinous individuals were put to death... But then there's something like this. What if these guys had been put to death and they were completely innocent?

 

[Enhance]

I love being able to see how my opinions six years ago relate to me now. Thanks for bumping.

Over the years, I've started to lean more anti-death penalty for two reasons. The first, and my biggest opposition to it, is I'm unconvinced the state will be able to take the necessary steps to carry out executions.

• We haven't put anyone to death since 1997
• We've never carried out a lethal injection execution
• Our state leadership irresponsibly spent $54,000 of our money to import drugs we can't legally import
  
• Our state leadership is now trying to shroud the process in secrecy despite a precedence of transparency
• Our legislature probably can't muster the votes to change the laws and make capital punishment a reasonable option

The second reason I've become more opposed to the death penalty are the stories I've read during the last six years about people being exonerated for crimes they didn't commit, people who had been put on death row. That's a frightening concept. Admittedly, this doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough to give me pause.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Used to be totally for it. Had the attitude that these bastards need to pay for what they have done and I have no desire to have them sit in prison on the public dime.

Well...that has changed with the fact innocent people actually sometimes get executed and the cost is astronomical to execute someone.

Once I learned those things, my attitude started to change. Now....I just think it's a very barbaric way of punishing someone and we should be better than that.

If we are going to use it, it should be such a rare situation that almost nobody would be on death row.

 

[Landlord]

Innocent people have been put to death under it.

It costs the law-abiding citizens of our country more than if we kept them alive.

It doesn't work as a deterrent, and it doesn't work as a punishment.

I don't see how it's anything other than a draconian ritual that needs to be left to history.

 

[teachercd]

Seeing a trial end yesterday about two men who first attempted to rob a family, then ended up raping the wife, and young (11 I think) daughter, finished them off by pouring gas on them lighting them on fire while tied to their beds. They found the 11 y/o away from her bed. I guess the ropes had burnt off before she died, and tried to escape.

Today I read about the Elizabeth Smart trial. Nine months in servitude being raped by a man who told her if she spoke out he would kill her and her family. S spent weeks chains to trees being raped daily, with only a pale for relief, and the only place to sleep was in a tent next to her abductor.

In my opinion all three of these men (and possibly the complacent wife w/the Smart case) should be put to death. It is about justice, not deterrence. I dont care how much it costs to bring about justice, I want to make damn sure they are guilty (in the these examples there is NO doubt), and when that is proven they will die. Prison is not punishment enough for them, they are granted there rights, even though they have taken the ultimate right of another to live (or in the case of Smart, her childhood, and more than likely, any chance at a normal life).

Anyone that is still against when they hear about this is fooling themselves. If this, any of it, happened to someone you loved you would want them dead.

 

[Fru]

Seeing a trial end yesterday about two men who first attempted to rob a family, then ended up raping the wife, and young (11 I think) daughter, finished them off by pouring gas on them lighting them on fire while tied to their beds. They found the 11 y/o away from her bed. I guess the ropes had burnt off before she died, and tried to escape.

Today I read about the Elizabeth Smart trial. Nine months in servitude being raped by a man who told her if she spoke out he would kill her and her family. S spent weeks chains to trees being raped daily, with only a pale for relief, and the only place to sleep was in a tent next to her abductor.

In my opinion all three of these men (and possibly the complacent wife w/the Smart case) should be put to death. It is about justice, not deterrence. I dont care how much it costs to bring about justice, I want to make damn sure they are guilty (in the these examples there is NO doubt), and when that is proven they will die. Prison is not punishment enough for them, they are granted there rights, even though they have taken the ultimate right of another to live (or in the case of Smart, her childhood, and more than likely, any chance at a normal life).

Anyone that is still against when they hear about this is fooling themselves. If this, any of it, happened to someone you loved you would want them dead.

Of course we would feel that way. Who wouldn't?

However, the point I was making has to do with the article I provided. It showed that two men were framed and convicted wrongfully. What if they were put to death and they were someone you loved? What then in that case?

 

[zoogs]

I suppose it depends on what's more important, our desire for satisfaction through vengeance or our desire to affirm life through the state not killing people. There are costs we all pay to indulge in the former.

 

[teachercd]

Seeing a trial end yesterday about two men who first attempted to rob a family, then ended up raping the wife, and young (11 I think) daughter, finished them off by pouring gas on them lighting them on fire while tied to their beds. They found the 11 y/o away from her bed. I guess the ropes had burnt off before she died, and tried to escape.

Today I read about the Elizabeth Smart trial. Nine months in servitude being raped by a man who told her if she spoke out he would kill her and her family. S spent weeks chains to trees being raped daily, with only a pale for relief, and the only place to sleep was in a tent next to her abductor.

In my opinion all three of these men (and possibly the complacent wife w/the Smart case) should be put to death. It is about justice, not deterrence. I dont care how much it costs to bring about justice, I want to make damn sure they are guilty (in the these examples there is NO doubt), and when that is proven they will die. Prison is not punishment enough for them, they are granted there rights, even though they have taken the ultimate right of another to live (or in the case of Smart, her childhood, and more than likely, any chance at a normal life).

Anyone that is still against when they hear about this is fooling themselves. If this, any of it, happened to someone you loved you would want them dead.

Of course we would feel that way. Who wouldn't?

However, the point I was making has to do with the article I provided. It showed that two men were framed and convicted wrongfully. What if they were put to death and they were someone you loved? What then in that case?

It would suck.

What if they filmed themselves slicing your mom up...so you could see for sure it was them...

 

[teachercd]

I suppose it depends on what's more important, our desire for satisfaction through vengeance or our desire to affirm life through the state not killing people. There are costs we all pay to indulge in the former.

I guess...but why is it vengeance? How come it's not a consequence?

When you get a parking ticket do you deem that as a vengeful act? Or as a consequence for breaking the parking was.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Seeing a trial end yesterday about two men who first attempted to rob a family, then ended up raping the wife, and young (11 I think) daughter, finished them off by pouring gas on them lighting them on fire while tied to their beds. They found the 11 y/o away from her bed. I guess the ropes had burnt off before she died, and tried to escape.

Today I read about the Elizabeth Smart trial. Nine months in servitude being raped by a man who told her if she spoke out he would kill her and her family. S spent weeks chains to trees being raped daily, with only a pale for relief, and the only place to sleep was in a tent next to her abductor.

In my opinion all three of these men (and possibly the complacent wife w/the Smart case) should be put to death. It is about justice, not deterrence. I dont care how much it costs to bring about justice, I want to make damn sure they are guilty (in the these examples there is NO doubt), and when that is proven they will die. Prison is not punishment enough for them, they are granted there rights, even though they have taken the ultimate right of another to live (or in the case of Smart, her childhood, and more than likely, any chance at a normal life).

Anyone that is still against when they hear about this is fooling themselves. If this, any of it, happened to someone you loved you would want them dead.

Of course. But, there is a reason why we don't allow victims or families of victims to sentence criminals.

 

[zoogs]

No, because when I get a parking ticket I'm not killed.