The Problem with Religious Moderates

[Husker_x]

I have to steal another Harris line for the first bolded point. He asks what I think is the most damaging question regarding that position. His Socratic answer would be, Where else in our discourse as human beings is that sort of thing acceptable? Is false hope really hope, and is it better than the consolations of philosophy, or stoicism? I can't make up anyone's mind for them on that. People are free to engage in whatever wishful thinking they want, but history has a funny way of constantly reminding us that so few have taken nothing but solace from their faith––and so many aren't happy unless everyone else believes like they do. A few more have to exclude others not like themselves to be happy. And still a few more have to torture and murder in its name to be happy. I want to believe that Kate Beckinsale is going out on a date with me tomorrow night. That in and of itself isn't crazy. But if I told you that I knew she was going to go on a date with me tomorrow night, that we were destined to be soul mates, and that I wouldn't want to live in a world where that wasn't the case, what would your response be to me?

On the nihilism of a godless universe, I can understand it. I can even sympathize with it. The trouble with it is I see no difference if God exists or not. Christians tell me God's going to blow this place up someday soon anyway. What's the point of living to eternally praise the eternal creator? What's the point of God? What does he want, and why? What's he good for? Two can play at this game. Is the universe an accident? Jury's still out. Is it going to inevitably end? Don't know. Even if it is, at least for the time being I enjoy this life. Sometimes quite a lot. As comforting as the answers (so called) religion offers may be, for my part I'm more interested in finding out what's true, and failing that, being honest. And sometimes honesty demands that we admit it when we just don't know.

Acceptable to whom? To a philosopher, or a scientist? To a person making a living writing articles debunking religion? Maybe this question is important to those people, but to the common person who lives and dies within a 100-mile radius of the point of their birth, which is the vast majority of the masses, this question is irrelevant. Religion or no religion, they're going to largely live the same meaningless life. Their individual life is so irrelevant that 20 years after their death only a handful of people recall their name, and 100 years after their death they become a name on a family tree and a couple of sentences. "Allen drove a milk truck for 24 years and earned safe driving badges each year. He was survived by Norma, Sharon and Janice, and preceded in death by his son Steven." What matter to that person if there were no religion, short of having a little more time on Sunday morning? How would it change the impact of his life?

As a species our very existence is almost entirely irrelevant. Unless we have time to discover some pretty aggressive technologies and move beyond our planet, we're going to live and die as a species having done little more than dig into our planet a bit. In a million years, celestially speaking half an eyeblink, the vast majority of our impact on this planet will be gone. Our most lasting impact could be as a fossil fuel for the next species to attain dominance. The impermanence of this existence makes the very nature of the question "Where else is that acceptable" irrelevant.

As for you and Ms. Beckinsale (single again, I believe?), while I highly doubt the existence of your date tomorrow night, if it comforts you to think it's going to happen, what harm does it do me that you harbor such a belief? When tomorrow night comes and goes with no date, you'll be forced to address your belief and re-evaluate it, and perhaps you'll rationalize that she had to wash that beautiful, beautiful hair of hers, and she'll be dropping by tonight instead. Again, doesn't much matter to me. I'm not interested in dating her, and even if she showed up at my door for that date, I'm already married and unable to go. It's all the same to me no matter what happens.

Regarding the second bolded sentence, isn't that what "it' is all about? You doing what makes you happy, me doing what makes me happy, Kate Beckinsale doing what makes her happy? Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, indeed. What is god good for? He clearly provides comfort to millions upon millions. He's as good as a security blanket, an aspirin, or a Kate Beckinsale fascination. He's also as dangerous as an aspirin, or a Kate Beckinsale fascination, used improperly.

So let's say you find out what's true. Let's say you're utterly honest and it somehow gets you the answers that have eluded philosophers and pundits throughout history. Do you envision some great awakening by man? How will the lot of the common man be any different than it is today? And how will it be better?

You know something, as I was reading this I was amazed. This was almost to the letter the exact kind of thing I always said as a Christian talking with atheists!

1. How does pretending you're immortal (with no better data on the subject, I'm forced to assume that's the best I could do if I decided to believe it) make life meaningful? How does God make life meaningful? Even if you answer me that humanity exists to serve God, and can only find contentment in a relationship with the eternal presence of him, I think it's pretty clear we've only removed the problem a step. What is God's purpose? What is God's meaning? Not in the context of what we might need him or the idea of him for. What's the point of him? Does he make one himself? I have a feeling if you can answer for him you can answer for us as well.

2. If people walking up to you on the street, spouting some fantastic thing, and then telling you they wouldn't want to live in a world where it wasn't true doesn't affect you, or you think it doesn't affect anyone else in daily conversation, I think you and Dexter should play a round of golf sometime. Take any example you want––an elected official says he has faith in Santa and has given the police access to a secret Naughty List; a noteworthy scientist says he has absolute faith in invisible aliens from the fifth dimension are directing his nuclear research. Do these things somehow change the course of human destiny and the universe? Maybe not, but they sure have the ability to f#*k up my sh#t in the dreary present. Like say, a president believing God told him to invade Iraq, or that Israel belongs to the Jews because of a covenant they made with the almighty. It does us absolutely no good in this conversation or in the course of our lifespans to pretend that religion is simply Linus's blanket. You may have reduced it to that for yourself, but that is most definitely NOT the experience of most religious people.

By the way, if Hell factors into your religious views, how is it that you manage to find comfort? How could you possibly lay down at night and not be consumed by an aching fear and dread for all those millions and billions that have gone and are going there? In a word this is why I see no reason to think that Christianity specifically can provide true comfort––at least for anyone not a sociopath––and even with the undefined pleasures of heaven runs a distant second to the void when you factor in everything.

To the bold: I can't envision much of what our species might find. Five hundred years ago if you would have told someone man would fly you would have been thought very insane. Now there are theories that perhaps mankind will invent an artificial reality that will, using DNA samples, create an eternal world for everyone who has ever lived. Crazy, huh? As I said before, the universe is strange and getting stranger by the day. We're only a half-century or so into our genetics. We're only an inch on a near-infinite ruler in our space discoveries. I can't even begin to speculate on what man's lot will be a million years from now.

But even if your average man is driving a milk truck somewhere in Alpha Centauri and dying within a hundred miles of where he was born on some strange terraformed world, I wouldn't use the world meaningless to describe him. If falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship are all meaningless, then I'll simply say that I prefer the meaningless a hell of a lot more than sucking my thumb, clutching my blanket, and pretending it's any different.

And single? Pfft. Don't insult me. I just told you Kate's coming over tonight. We're going out on the town. You have to have faith!

 

[HuskersNow]

By the way, if Hell factors into your religious views, how is it that you manage to find comfort? How could you possibly lay down at night and not be consumed by an aching fear and dread for all those millions and billions that have gone and are going there? In a word this is why I see no reason to think that Christianity specifically can provide true comfort––at least for anyone not a sociopath––and even with the undefined pleasures of heaven runs a distant second to the void when you factor in everything.

I don't understand how someone can believe the part in bold and consider himself moral. I mean they worship a God who places people on this earth only to send the vast majority of them to hell for all of eternity. Some Christians will say that they had their chance to believe and didn't, but why create these people anyway? It appears that the God they worship is completely sadistic.

I don't think that a single person who has lived, if they had the ability to send people to hell, would send them there for all of eternity. Even those who have killed millions would eventually stop their torment given an infinite amount of time. But not God, no his vengeance against the innocent is eternal.

Therefore, in regards to morals, Hitler and Stalin >>>>>>>>>>>> God and it's not even close.

 

[knapplc]

1. How does pretending you're immortal (with no better data on the subject, I'm forced to assume that's the best I could do if I decided to believe it) make life meaningful? How does God make life meaningful? Even if you answer me that humanity exists to serve God, and can only find contentment in a relationship with the eternal presence of him, I think it's pretty clear we've only removed the problem a step. What is God's purpose? What is God's meaning? Not in the context of what we might need him or the idea of him for. What's the point of him? Does he make one himself? I have a feeling if you can answer for him you can answer for us as well.

2. If people walking up to you on the street, spouting some fantastic thing, and then telling you they wouldn't want to live in a world where it wasn't true doesn't affect you, or you think it doesn't affect anyone else in daily conversation, I think you and Dexter should play a round of golf sometime. Take any example you want––an elected official says he has faith in Santa and has given the police access to a secret Naughty List; a noteworthy scientist says he has absolute faith in invisible aliens from the fifth dimension are directing his nuclear research. Do these things somehow change the course of human destiny and the universe? Maybe not, but they sure have the ability to f#*k up my sh#t in the dreary present. Like say, a president believing God told him to invade Iraq, or that Israel belongs to the Jews because of a covenant they made with the almighty. It does us absolutely no good in this conversation or in the course of our lifespans to pretend that religion is simply Linus's blanket. You may have reduced it to that for yourself, but that is most definitely NOT the experience of most religious people.

By the way, if Hell factors into your religious views, how is it that you manage to find comfort? How could you possibly lay down at night and not be consumed by an aching fear and dread for all those millions and billions that have gone and are going there? In a word this is why I see no reason to think that Christianity specifically can provide true comfort––at least for anyone not a sociopath––and even with the undefined pleasures of heaven runs a distant second to the void when you factor in everything.

To the bold: I can't envision much of what our species might find. Five hundred years ago if you would have told someone man would fly you would have been thought very insane. Now there are theories that perhaps mankind will invent an artificial reality that will, using DNA samples, create an eternal world for everyone who has ever lived. Crazy, huh? As I said before, the universe is strange and getting stranger by the day. We're only a half-century or so into our genetics. We're only an inch on a near-infinite ruler in our space discoveries. I can't even begin to speculate on what man's lot will be a million years from now.

But even if your average man is driving a milk truck somewhere in Alpha Centauri and dying within a hundred miles of where he was born on some strange terraformed world, I wouldn't use the world meaningless to describe him. If falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship are all meaningless, then I'll simply say that I prefer the meaningless a hell of a lot more than sucking my thumb, clutching my blanket, and pretending it's any different.

And single? Pfft. Don't insult me. I just told you Kate's coming over tonight. We're going out on the town. You have to have faith!

How does pretending you're immortal make life meaningful?

You would have to ask someone who thinks they're immortal. But you'd better do it quick, because if your head comes away from your neck, it's over!

How does God make life meaningful?

This is your presupposition. I don't contend that God(s) give life meaning. I contend God(s) give comfort, in much the same way that a security blanket or a cup of hot cocoa gives comfort.

What is God's purpose? What is God's meaning? What's the point of him? Does he make one himself?

I'd be a gazillionaire if I knew these answers. The most brilliant philosophers and theologians have been pondering this question for millennia and have no answer. If you know, by all means, out with it!

All of #2

I hate to break this to you, but if God is a human creation, then these problems you're listing are human creations as well, meaning that they'll exist whether you have God(s) or not. Removing God/religion from this entire paragraph is simply word play. There are about a million different human ideas and ideals that can f#*k up your sh#t in the dreary present. You have a bug up your butt about God(s) so you focus on it, but it's just a talking point. It's as valid as waging wars over a stolen wife, or a presumed insult, or invading Iraq to avenge an attempt to assassinate your father, a former president. Removing God(s) from the world just means that humans will focus on some other reason to go all angsty on themselves. God(s) are not ONLY Linus' blanket, but used properly they are as harmless as Linus' blanket. Used improperly a teddy bear can be a murder weapon. People have been killed over the sports team they like. Welcome to humanity.

Hell

This is a great question. What is Hell? Why does it exist? Why would God create us, allow us to fall away/separate ourselves from him, then give us a tremendously narrow road back to him which we can ONLY travel if we believe in his son's death on the cross, and all the while the penalty for failing any of this is eternal roasting in Hell? I have no answer for this question. If you have one, I'd like to know.

I'll tell you what the future of our species is - 500, 1,000 or 10,000 years from now, humans will still be living largely irrelevant lives. The common man will live a common life, do common things, die a common death, and be forgotten mere decades after he's gone. Or, if/when we solve the genetic puzzles that we're working on, we'll never die, yet remain irrelevant. Seven billion, 15 billion, 100 billion humans won't all be meaningful. In fact, none of them will have much of an impact on anything. This is the lot of man. Whether we have gods or no gods, none of it will change. That's what man is. Common and largely irrelevant.

But even if your average man is driving a milk truck somewhere in Alpha Centauri and dying within a hundred miles of where he was born on some strange terraformed world, I wouldn't use the world meaningless to describe him. If falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship are all meaningless, then I'll simply say that I prefer the meaningless a hell of a lot more than sucking my thumb, clutching my blanket, and pretending it's any different.

If there is no god, then all of this paragraph is the same whether you believe in a nonexistent god or not. You believe in no god. A Christian believes in their god. A Muslim in theirs, a Hindu in theirs, etc. You all will live a life where there will be falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship. There will be next to no difference in their lives whatsoever, or, not much difference in the life of a Deist compared to an Atheist as there is in the lives of a Packers fan compared to a Broncos fan. Or a Sports fan and a person who hates sports.

What meaning do you see in life? In whatever context you wish to describe yourself, Theist, Atheist, Agnostic, whatever, what meaning will your life have had one million years from now? And how is that any different than the life of the average Christian who lives on your street?

Finally, I have no idea why you would be insulted that Kate Beckinsale is, I believe, now single. But whatever. Enjoy your date.

 

[Husker_x]

How does pretending you're immortal make life meaningful?

You would have to ask someone who thinks they're immortal. But you'd better do it quick, because if your head comes away from your neck, it's over!

You don't believe in Heaven?

How does God make life meaningful?This is your presupposition. I don't contend that God(s) give life meaning. I contend God(s) give comfort, in much the same way that a security blanket or a cup of hot cocoa gives comfort.

I wouldn't call it a presupposition. I don't believe in God so clearly I don't believe he gives life meaning. You seemed to be contrasting objective meaning between a theistic and atheistic universe. In either case it seems to me that meaning is subjective, or dependent upon a subject, or consciousness. Adding God doesn't change anything for me.

What is God's purpose? What is God's meaning? What's the point of him? Does he make one himself?I'd be a gazillionaire if I knew these answers. The most brilliant philosophers and theologians have been pondering this question for millennia and have no answer. If you know, by all means, out with it!

Don't know. Don't claim to know. But so far we haven't established a single thing God is good for outside of comfort, and even that is tenuous.

All of #2I hate to break this to you, but if God is a human creation, then these problems you're listing are human creations as well, meaning that they'll exist whether you have God(s) or not. Removing God/religion from this entire paragraph is simply word play. There are about a million different human ideas and ideals that can f#*k up your sh#t in the dreary present. You have a bug up your butt about God(s) so you focus on it, but it's just a talking point. It's as valid as waging wars over a stolen wife, or a presumed insult, or invading Iraq to avenge an attempt to assassinate your father, a former president. Removing God(s) from the world just means that humans will focus on some other reason to go all angsty on themselves. God(s) are not ONLY Linus' blanket, but used properly they are as harmless as Linus' blanket. Used improperly a teddy bear can be a murder weapon. People have been killed over the sports team they like. Welcome to humanity.

Would 9/11 have happened without Islam? Would The Inquisition have happened without Christianity? The issue is not whether or not people would do bad things without religion––of course they would. The issue is are we doing more bad things with a false sense of justification because of religion? Are we losing something by pretending we have this life figured out as so many Monotheists do. Faith is the pretense of an answer. The trouble with having answers is that you cease to ask questions.

HellThis is a great question. What is Hell? Why does it exist? Why would God create us, allow us to fall away/separate ourselves from him, then give us a tremendously narrow road back to him which we can ONLY travel if we believe in his son's death on the cross, and all the while the penalty for failing any of this is eternal roasting in Hell? I have no answer for this question. If you have one, I'd like to know.

My answer is that no such place has ever been demonstrated to exist and it is wildly inconsistent with both basic decency and the idea of omni-benevolence. To say that an entity could create a place like this is good, moral, and praiseworthy, is to debase language to the point of meaninglessness. All you have to do is imagine a human being attempting anything like this and you will automatically come to the conclusion that this person was the most evil person to ever exist. Every terrible thing humanity has suffered––war, starvation, poverty, loneliness, murder, rape, torture, etc.––in totality is less than the pain one lost soul would suffer.

I'll tell you what the future of our species is - 500, 1,000 or 10,000 years from now, humans will still be living largely irrelevant lives. The common man will live a common life, do common things, die a common death, and be forgotten mere decades after he's gone. Or, if/when we solve the genetic puzzles that we're working on, we'll never die, yet remain irrelevant. Seven billion, 15 billion, 100 billion humans won't all be meaningful. In fact, none of them will have much of an impact on anything. This is the lot of man. Whether we have gods or no gods, none of it will change. That's what man is. Common and largely irrelevant.

Irrelevant to whom? Aren't you relevant to yourself, your friends and family? This entire self-debasing monologue might be correct in an objective sense but the objective isn't what we concern ourselves with in our lives for the most part. The fact is humanity is a social species and even if your work doesn't stick out during your lifetime, the lives you touch and the things you do are a part of a causal chain that will ring out throughout eternity. The same is true for you as it is for a prominent person like Barack Obama. Right now you are affecting me by having this conversation. I'm thinking, interacting. I'm not doing something else I might be doing if we weren't having this conversation. This will set in motion a chain of events I can't foresee, but on a more macro scale delivering milk, keeping our society running, could very well be the actions that allows us collectively to find a way to live forever, or come to an understanding of the universe, or at least enjoy ourselves a little while longer.

But even if your average man is driving a milk truck somewhere in Alpha Centauri and dying within a hundred miles of where he was born on some strange terraformed world, I wouldn't use the world meaningless to describe him. If falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship are all meaningless, then I'll simply say that I prefer the meaningless a hell of a lot more than sucking my thumb, clutching my blanket, and pretending it's any different.
If there is no god, then all of this paragraph is the same whether you believe in a nonexistent god or not. You believe in no god. A Christian believes in their god. A Muslim in theirs, a Hindu in theirs, etc. You all will live a life where there will be falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship. There will be next to no difference in their lives whatsoever, or, not much difference in the life of a Deist compared to an Atheist as there is in the lives of a Packers fan compared to a Broncos fan. Or a Sports fan and a person who hates sports.

Next to no difference between people? Really? No two lives are ever the same. No two stories are ever the same. No two pieces of music are ever the same. Even if someone could live a life fundamentally different (whatever that means) from someone else, what would this life look like, and why would it be desirable? Again, we're a social species. We derive a good share of our experience of happiness from the collective, from commonality. It's in our genes and the nurturing communities most of us grow up in. Words like 'irrelevant' or 'no difference' are both wrong and unimportant to the discussion.

What meaning do you see in life? In whatever context you wish to describe yourself, Theist, Atheist, Agnostic, whatever, what meaning will your life have had one million years from now? And how is that any different than the life of the average Christian who lives on your street?

The difference will be that I employed rationality, not faith, as a way of experiencing the world. Unlike faith, which can't discover, can't grow, can't change, or learn, or progress, science and reason can. They can fundamentally alter the way human beings experience life: the duration of it through medicine, the comfort of it through technology, the wonder of it through science, the beauty of it through art and literature. What has religion or believing in the unsupported ever done for us that we couldn't do for ourselves? It hasn't made us happy. It hasn't made us moral. It hasn't taught us anything we couldn't have discovered on our own.

Finally, I have no idea why you would be insulted that Kate Beckinsale is, I believe, now single. But whatever. Enjoy your date.

Oh she's single all right. She just may not know it yet.

Whoo! These are getting longer by the post. [pops knuckles]

 

[knapplc]

How does pretending you're immortal make life meaningful? You would have to ask someone who thinks they're immortal. But you'd better do it quick, because if your head comes away from your neck, it's over!

You don't believe in Heaven?

Not at this time. But I reserve the right to modify my stance in the event of new information coming to light.

How does God make life meaningful?This is your presupposition. I don't contend that God(s) give life meaning. I contend God(s) give comfort, in much the same way that a security blanket or a cup of hot cocoa gives comfort.

I wouldn't call it a presupposition. I don't believe in God so clearly I don't believe he gives life meaning. You seemed to be contrasting objective meaning between a theistic and atheistic universe. In either case it seems to me that meaning is subjective, or dependent upon a subject, or consciousness. Adding God doesn't change anything for me.

You presupposed that "God gives life meaning" was my point. It was not. Whether adding God changes things for you is not relevant to the next person, it is only relevant to you.

What is God's purpose? What is God's meaning? What's the point of him? Does he make one himself?I'd be a gazillionaire if I knew these answers. The most brilliant philosophers and theologians have been pondering this question for millennia and have no answer. If you know, by all means, out with it!

Don't know. Don't claim to know. But so far we haven't established a single thing God is good for outside of comfort, and even that is tenuous.

Who are you to say that someone is or is not comforted by a belief in God? I know dozens of people who are. You're telling me they aren't? On what basis?

All of #2I hate to break this to you, but if God is a human creation, then these problems you're listing are human creations as well, meaning that they'll exist whether you have God(s) or not. Removing God/religion from this entire paragraph is simply word play. There are about a million different human ideas and ideals that can f#*k up your sh#t in the dreary present. You have a bug up your butt about God(s) so you focus on it, but it's just a talking point. It's as valid as waging wars over a stolen wife, or a presumed insult, or invading Iraq to avenge an attempt to assassinate your father, a former president. Removing God(s) from the world just means that humans will focus on some other reason to go all angsty on themselves. God(s) are not ONLY Linus' blanket, but used properly they are as harmless as Linus' blanket. Used improperly a teddy bear can be a murder weapon. People have been killed over the sports team they like. Welcome to humanity.

Would 9/11 have happened without Islam? Would The Inquisition have happened without Christianity? The issue is not whether or not people would do bad things without religion––of course they would. The issue is are we doing more bad things with a false sense of justification because of religion? Are we losing something by pretending we have this life figured out as so many Monotheists do. Faith is the pretense of an answer. The trouble with having answers is that you cease to ask questions.

Some cease to ask questions, but not all. You want to paint all of Theism with the same brush of mindlessness, which is unsupported opinion. But don't come to me with wringing hands over wrongs done by religion - again, in the absence of God, these are wrongs done by humans, and religion is irrelevant to whether they were done or not. We wouldn't be doing more or less wrong to each other with or without religion, we'd just use different excuses.

HellThis is a great question. What is Hell? Why does it exist? Why would God create us, allow us to fall away/separate ourselves from him, then give us a tremendously narrow road back to him which we can ONLY travel if we believe in his son's death on the cross, and all the while the penalty for failing any of this is eternal roasting in Hell? I have no answer for this question. If you have one, I'd like to know.

My answer is that no such place has ever been demonstrated to exist and it is wildly inconsistent with both basic decency and the idea of omni-benevolence. To say that an entity could create a place like this is good, moral, and praiseworthy, is to debase language to the point of meaninglessness. All you have to do is imagine a human being attempting anything like this and you will automatically come to the conclusion that this person was the most evil person to ever exist. Every terrible thing humanity has suffered––war, starvation, poverty, loneliness, murder, rape, torture, etc.––in totality is less than the pain one lost soul would suffer.

Agreed. It seems completely counter to what God is claimed to be. And to avoid this place you have to live a life no human has ever lived, and believe on no living proof that such a place is real and such an outcome is possible, and if you ask questions you get no answers only faith. Well, faith has its place in our lives (I have faith that my wife loves me, I have faith that Bo will lead us back to where we belong, I have faith that there is life somewhere else out there), but like I said before, if I gave my child a boatload of instruction and life lessons until she turned two, then left her for the rest of her life and expected her to follow those instructions to the letter despite evidence against the wisdom of those instructions and in the face of influences and societal pressures that obviate those instructions, and made a decree that if she has not followed all of those instructions to the letter until she turns 50 she'd be thrown into prison for the rest of her life, that'd probably qualify me as a pretty darned crummy dad, wouldn't it? I have a hard time believing that this is what God is, or is all about. This is not a loving God, this is an absentee father.

**** Board software limits the number of quotes we can use in a single post. I've broken this up as a result; continued in next post.

 

[knapplc]

I'll tell you what the future of our species is - 500, 1,000 or 10,000 years from now, humans will still be living largely irrelevant lives. The common man will live a common life, do common things, die a common death, and be forgotten mere decades after he's gone. Or, if/when we solve the genetic puzzles that we're working on, we'll never die, yet remain irrelevant. Seven billion, 15 billion, 100 billion humans won't all be meaningful. In fact, none of them will have much of an impact on anything. This is the lot of man. Whether we have gods or no gods, none of it will change. That's what man is. Common and largely irrelevant.

Irrelevant to whom? Aren't you relevant to yourself, your friends and family? This entire self-debasing monologue might be correct in an objective sense but the objective isn't what we concern ourselves with in our lives for the most part. The fact is humanity is a social species and even if your work doesn't stick out during your lifetime, the lives you touch and the things you do are a part of a causal chain that will ring out throughout eternity. The same is true for you as it is for a prominent person like Barack Obama. Right now you are affecting me by having this conversation. I'm thinking, interacting. I'm not doing something else I might be doing if we weren't having this conversation. This will set in motion a chain of events I can't foresee, but on a more macro scale delivering milk, keeping our society running, could very well be the actions that allows us collectively to find a way to live forever, or come to an understanding of the universe, or at least enjoy ourselves a little while longer.

You should be concerned with the objective. If you're not, you're wasting your time. Everything you say, think and do is pointless. Your joys, your fears, your loves, your losses, whatever, is without merit or moment. It means nothing, aside from your immediate existence, and frankly, nobody but you cares. Your grandiose "causal chain" makes a nice story, but bottom line, nothing anyone does amounts to anything. Live forever? The universe won't live forever, my friend. And even if you did live forever, what would you do with forever? How does it benefit you to live forever? Knowledge is finite, and at some point you'll know everything, you'll have done everything, and you'll have thought of everything. Then what? This is something you see as beneficial? I see this as hell. What a waste of existence.

But even if your average man is driving a milk truck somewhere in Alpha Centauri and dying within a hundred miles of where he was born on some strange terraformed world, I wouldn't use the world meaningless to describe him. If falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship are all meaningless, then I'll simply say that I prefer the meaningless a hell of a lot more than sucking my thumb, clutching my blanket, and pretending it's any different.
If there is no god, then all of this paragraph is the same whether you believe in a nonexistent god or not. You believe in no god. A Christian believes in their god. A Muslim in theirs, a Hindu in theirs, etc. You all will live a life where there will be falling in love, having a family, enjoying art, exploring science, facing philosophy, working, sweating, bleeding, crying, dancing, talking, arguing, debating, football, leisure, entertainment, film, literature, poetry, theater, nature, beer, and friendship. There will be next to no difference in their lives whatsoever, or, not much difference in the life of a Deist compared to an Atheist as there is in the lives of a Packers fan compared to a Broncos fan. Or a Sports fan and a person who hates sports.

Next to no difference between people? Really? No two lives are ever the same. No two stories are ever the same. No two pieces of music are ever the same. Even if someone could live a life fundamentally different (whatever that means) from someone else, what would this life look like, and why would it be desirable? Again, we're a social species. We derive a good share of our experience of happiness from the collective, from commonality. It's in our genes and the nurturing communities most of us grow up in. Words like 'irrelevant' or 'no difference' are both wrong and unimportant to the discussion.

No, those words are entirely the discussion. You want life to have meaning, but it doesn't. It's an accident - complex carbons formed more complex molecules, growing ever more complex, until it evolved into life. That life evolved further, and then there was us. The rest is just details.

Your life has meaning to you, but not to me. Not to the guy down the street. Just last week we had a member of our board die. We all felt saddened, but has your life changed because of his death? How many tears did you shed? How much sleep did you lose because of his death? He was a father, a husband and (apparently) a good guy. But you didn't mourn him, and his passing doesn't affect you in any meaningful way. Tell me again how relevant he was to you, when you haven't thought about him until I brought him up at the beginning of this paragraph?

What meaning do you see in life? In whatever context you wish to describe yourself, Theist, Atheist, Agnostic, whatever, what meaning will your life have had one million years from now? And how is that any different than the life of the average Christian who lives on your street?

The difference will be that I employed rationality, not faith, as a way of experiencing the world. Unlike faith, which can't discover, can't grow, can't change, or learn, or progress, science and reason can. They can fundamentally alter the way human beings experience life: the duration of it through medicine, the comfort of it through technology, the wonder of it through science, the beauty of it through art and literature. What has religion or believing in the unsupported ever done for us that we couldn't do for ourselves? It hasn't made us happy. It hasn't made us moral. It hasn't taught us anything we couldn't have discovered on our own.

Neither does Linus' blanket, but that's not the point of Linus' blanket. You seem to think that for religion to be useful it must meet all ends, be all things to all people. To use Mr. Harris' line again, Where else in our discourse as human beings is that sort of thing acceptable? To what other thing do we apply such a litmus test?

 

[Husker_x]

Not at this time. But I reserve the right to modify my stance in the event of new information coming to light.

We park our cars in the same garage.

You presupposed that "God gives life meaning" was my point. It was not. Whether adding God changes things for you is not relevant to the next person, it is only relevant to you.

What is your point? What I'm gathering so far is that life or existence itself is objectively meaningless. I wouldn't bother arguing that. Isn't meaning inherently subjective? God, no God, or many gods, on whatever level this seems to be the case. I don't claim that disbelieving in a god gives life meaning. But myriad are the religious who think and preach that gods do.

Who are you to say that someone is or is not comforted by a belief in God? I know dozens of people who are. You're telling me they aren't? On what basis?

People are comforted by their belief in God. If it stopped there we would have basically nothing to talk about. But it doesn't stop there, does it? In the Middle East there is often times no difference between politics and religion. In America an enormous voting block is ever scheming to inject their biblical value system onto everyone else. I don't have any use for the comforts of speculation. Other people do. If I use a broad brush it's because I have to paint a broad swath representing the intermingling of belief and action that is more than simple reassurance in the face of death.

Some cease to ask questions, but not all. You want to paint all of Theism with the same brush of mindlessness, which is unsupported opinion. But don't come to me with wringing hands over wrongs done by religion - again, in the absence of God, these are wrongs done by humans, and religion is irrelevant to whether they were done or not. We wouldn't be doing more or less wrong to each other with or without religion, we'd just use different excuses.

If you think that a group of well-educated upper middle class people would have committed suicide in order to murder three thousand innocent people on September 11, 2001 if their minds hadn't been poisoned by fanatical Islam, you're free to hold that opinion, but I wouldn't advertise it. There's realism and then there's denialism.

You should be concerned with the objective. If you're not, you're wasting your time. Everything you say, think and do is pointless. Your joys, your fears, your loves, your losses, whatever, is without merit or moment. It means nothing, aside from your immediate existence, and frankly, nobody but you cares. Your grandiose "causal chain" makes a nice story, but bottom line, nothing anyone does amounts to anything. Live forever? The universe won't live forever, my friend. And even if you did live forever, what would you do with forever? How does it benefit you to live forever? Knowledge is finite, and at some point you'll know everything, you'll have done everything, and you'll have thought of everything. Then what? This is something you see as beneficial? I see this as hell. What a waste of existence.

The concept of the universe being objectively meaningless is in itself meaningless. We've already agreed adding God doesn't help. That leaves us with our daily lives, what we choose to give meaning. When you say, "Nobody cares but you," you're incorrect again. It's a little ridiculous to expect me to weep over someone I've never met. It's not ridiculous to expect me to weep over someone I had a deep relationship with. But even if I didn't know the man, his contributions to society have affected the entire world. It may not be perceptible to me personally, but everything is interconnected. Did he vote? Did he work? Did he buy and sell? Did he have children? You may say his life was meaningless, or that my life is, but I can refute this claim with a hundred individuals who would say otherwise. The idea of 'objective meaning'––which BTW is what Christians are always referencing in this very discussion––is a contradiction in terms.

Neither does Linus' blanket, but that's not the point of Linus' blanket. You seem to think that for religion to be useful it must meet all ends, be all things to all people. To use Mr. Harris' line again, Where else in our discourse as human beings is that sort of thing acceptable? To what other thing do we apply such a litmus test?

The use of religion is not what I'm interested in. Wishful thinking is not what I'm interested in. Religious people of all stripes aren't sitting at home telling themselves how comforted they are, my friend. Again, if that were the case, our discussion would be at an end. If feeling good is your only aim with religion, I'd suggest heroin as a more palpable substitute. I won't say nowhere else, but rarely in our discourse does something so unsupported by a single piece of evidence or logic purport to explain so much, to control the lives of so many people, and to shape the world as religion does.

 

[knapplc]

So this is the windmill at which you choose to tilt, and come hell or high water you'll do your darnedest to eliminate religion in the world. How utterly wasteful, when you already know that in the absence of that religion a different excuse for all the wrongs you list will crop up. And then you'll tilt at that windmill, all the while not realizing (or being too afraid to face) that the bogeyman is inside you already, inside me, inside everyone, and you're never ever going to get rid of it until you get rid of humans.

All your philosophizing boils down to a simple axe to grind with Christianity. That's why these conversations with you are as pointless as discussing government with SOCAL. To him government is a monopoly on coercion and violence. To you, religion is a great evil man inflicts on himself. Doesn't matter which side the coin falls on, it's a pointless argument.

 

[Husker_x]

So this is the windmill at which you choose to tilt, and come hell or high water you'll do your darnedest to eliminate religion in the world. How utterly wasteful, when you already know that in the absence of that religion a different excuse for all the wrongs you list will crop up. And then you'll tilt at that windmill, all the while not realizing (or being too afraid to face) that the bogeyman is inside you already, inside me, inside everyone, and you're never ever going to get rid of it until you get rid of humans.

All your philosophizing boils down to a simple axe to grind with Christianity. That's why these conversations with you are as pointless as discussing government with SOCAL. To him government is a monopoly on coercion and violence. To you, religion is a great evil man inflicts on himself. Doesn't matter which side the coin falls on, it's a pointless argument.

Interesting. Your entire line of reasoning in this discussion has been that everything and everyone is pointless. Why do I get such special treatment?

No, my philosophy is not reducible to a b!^@h about Christianity; Christianity happens to be the most prominent religion in my country and personal experience, so naturally it draws more of my attention. I am interested in the philosophies of all faiths and spiritualisms. And as for tilting windmills, if there were any way to turn back time, I would place a gentlemen's wager that if those men who took the twin towers down had been raised with rationality instead of faith as their basis for experiencing the world, we would have those buildings in the New York skyline today, and the world would be better off. If you are willing to believe the unsupportable, you are willing to believe anything. It's that simple.

To me religion is a lens that dims the eye while pretending to help it see. Security blankets are for children, and people who don't need the security blanket but think that others do are patronizing. There aren't any wars to wage against religion––not like the religious have carried against themselves and others. Only debates and conversations.

And speaking of which, thank you for this conversation. Pointless or not, I've enjoyed it.

 

[rawhide]

You guys just need a Newcastle. No really :worship j/k continue

 

[Manhattan]

Rawhide, you've become a Newcastle spokesperson?

 

[knapplc]

No, my philosophy is not reducible to a b!^@h about Christianity; Christianity happens to be the most prominent religion in my country and personal experience, so naturally it draws more of my attention. I am interested in the philosophies of all faiths and spiritualisms. And as for tilting windmills, if there were any way to turn back time, I would place a gentlemen's wager that if those men who took the twin towers down had been raised with rationality instead of faith as their basis for experiencing the world, we would have those buildings in the New York skyline today, and the world would be better off. If you are willing to believe the unsupportable, you are willing to believe anything. It's that simple.

To me religion is a lens that dims the eye while pretending to help it see. Security blankets are for children, and people who don't need the security blanket but think that others do are patronizing. There aren't any wars to wage against religion––not like the religious have carried against themselves and others. Only debates and conversations.

This is why I compared this conversation to a discussion with SOCAL. To you there is no god. Therefore you must admit that these things you decry about religion are human-based. Being human-based, it is clear that were there no religion there would still be conflicts. Sure, 9/11's roots are in religion. The same cannot be said of WWI or WWII, Korea or Vietnam. You are so focused on religion that you fail to see the obvious - humans conflict. So there would be 3,000 people alive today and we wouldn't be fighting in Afghanistan, etc, etc. What solace does that give to the tens of millions who died in the other major conflicts of the last 100 years? What solace does that give to the tens of millions Stalin killed in his own backyard? It's just another side of the same coin - human conflict.

You are also choosing to turn your eye from the tens of millions of people who receive food, clothing, shelter, asylum, health care and sundry other succoring actions from religious charities. If you're going to remove the bad religion has done you remove the good as well. Or you can, again, realize that charity is a human trait, not inherently religious, and see that charities would exist with or without religion. Either way, your aim is misplaced.

Security blankets are for whomever needs them. Go do some missionary work in Africa and tell me those people running from rape and war don't need security blankets. What an arrogant statement.

 

[Husker_x]

No, my philosophy is not reducible to a b!^@h about Christianity; Christianity happens to be the most prominent religion in my country and personal experience, so naturally it draws more of my attention. I am interested in the philosophies of all faiths and spiritualisms. And as for tilting windmills, if there were any way to turn back time, I would place a gentlemen's wager that if those men who took the twin towers down had been raised with rationality instead of faith as their basis for experiencing the world, we would have those buildings in the New York skyline today, and the world would be better off. If you are willing to believe the unsupportable, you are willing to believe anything. It's that simple.

To me religion is a lens that dims the eye while pretending to help it see. Security blankets are for children, and people who don't need the security blanket but think that others do are patronizing. There aren't any wars to wage against religion––not like the religious have carried against themselves and others. Only debates and conversations.

This is why I compared this conversation to a discussion with SOCAL. To you there is no god. Therefore you must admit that these things you decry about religion are human-based. Being human-based, it is clear that were there no religion there would still be conflicts. Sure, 9/11's roots are in religion. The same cannot be said of WWI or WWII, Korea or Vietnam. You are so focused on religion that you fail to see the obvious - humans conflict. So there would be 3,000 people alive today and we wouldn't be fighting in Afghanistan, etc, etc. What solace does that give to the tens of millions who died in the other major conflicts of the last 100 years? What solace does that give to the tens of millions Stalin killed in his own backyard? It's just another side of the same coin - human conflict.

You are also choosing to turn your eye from the tens of millions of people who receive food, clothing, shelter, asylum, health care and sundry other succoring actions from religious charities. If you're going to remove the bad religion has done you remove the good as well. Or you can, again, realize that charity is a human trait, not inherently religious, and see that charities would exist with or without religion. Either way, your aim is misplaced.

Security blankets are for whomever needs them. Go do some missionary work in Africa and tell me those people running from rape and war don't need security blankets. What an arrogant statement.

I wish you'd get this part right. My position is that there has been no evidence given to me that would make me believe there is a god. And I've looked. The idea that gods are man made doesn't mystically allow you to jump to the conclusion that it's a good idea to make things up and parade them around as absolute truth. Whatever our discussion is like, you seem to want to have it, so can we deal with the issues at hand?

Humans conflict. What a concept. Guess what else? Sometimes people conflict over religion, e.g. over unsupported claims about a supernatural world none of us know anything about. How about we stop piling more conflicts onto the ones we already have? A start is to stop pretending to know things we don't that create and fuel some of our conflicts. There is no contradiction in that.

Atheism doesn't provide solace. Why would you expect it to? Sometimes when life is sh**ty enough nothing provides solace. I can tell you that from experience.

Summing up your post I've concluded your position is more or less the following: Nothing matters, everything is meaningless, including the African tribes being wiped out by evil people for whatever reason. But you still care. You care enough to lie to people––to tell them something, anything, that will alleviate some of that suffering. Tell them that there's a supernatural force behind this whole sh#t-awful business, that it's a part of a divine plan, and if they believe the right things or pray to this god then everything will work out in the end.

If it were me, my unabashed answer would be, "Go f*ck yourself." I don't take comfort in lies. I'm not comforted that the catholic church forbids condom use in Sub-Saharan Africa because of superstitions surrounding sexual 'purity.' Religions don't have the street cred to talk about arrogance, my man.

As it happens, I have done charity work even as an atheist with Christian groups. I appreciate their efforts, but once again, this isn't about use for me. I don't need to tell victims of war to take no care for the morrow, or to turn the other cheek, or that they'll see paradise, or that there's a plan. If I want to 'do unto others as I would have them do unto me,' then I would want the truth. I don't need to believe nonsense to give people clothes and food. You don't need religion to arrive at charity and goodwill.

EDIT

And I'd love a Newcastle. One of my favorite brews.

 

[knapplc]

I wish you'd get this part right. The idea that gods are man made doesn't mystically allow you to jump to the conclusion that it's a good idea to make things up and parade them around as absolute truth.

I have no idea what you're saying here. Show me where I've said this.

Humans conflict. What a concept. Guess what else? Sometimes people conflict over religion, e.g. over unsupported claims about a supernatural world none of us know anything about. How about we stop piling more conflicts onto the ones we already have? A start is to stop pretending to know things we don't that create and fuel some of our conflicts. There is no contradiction in that.

Tilting at windmills again. Your giant is religion, so of course it's the most dangerous thing, and what you focus on. But reality doesn't support your personal angst. Reality says that humans conflict. You agree with this, so all you have to do is take that next step and let go of whatever personal angst you have against religion and see reality. See the windmill for what it really is. When you're ready to do that, you'll be amazed at how peaceful life can be.

Atheism doesn't provide solace. Why would you expect it to? Sometimes when life is sh**ty enough nothing provides solace. I can tell you that from experience.

Congratulations. You've had a sh**ty life. Welcome to humanity. This doesn't, however, give a monopoly on suffering, nor make you any more an expert on it than anyone else.

Summing up your post I've concluded your position is more or less the following: Nothing matters, everything is meaningless, including the African tribes being wiped out by evil people for whatever reason. But you still care. You care enough to lie to people––to tell them something, anything, that will alleviate some of that suffering. Tell them that there's a supernatural force behind this whole sh#t-awful business, that it's a part of a divine plan, and if they believe the right things or pray to this god then everything will work out in the end.

Where am I lying to anyone? I'm saying humans conflict, humans suffer, and whatever means they can find to assuage that suffering, who are you to tell them to stop? Belief in a nonexistent god doesn't harm someone. You telling them that there's no god, there's no security blanket, doesn't help in the least. It compounds their misery by taking away the one thing they hold on to. And the arrogance is that you'd do it thinking you're doing them a favor in the midst of their suffering.

If it were me, my unabashed answer would be, "Go f*ck yourself." I don't take comfort in lies.

+1 internet tough guy points for you, I suppose. Your sh**ty life gives you license to sh#t on the next guy. You're not looking for truth, you're vindictive.

As it happens, I have done charity work even as an atheist with Christian groups. I appreciate their efforts, but once again, this isn't about use for me. I don't need to tell victims of war to take no care for the morrow, or to turn the other cheek, or that they'll see paradise, or that there's a plan. If I want to 'do unto others as I would have them do unto me,' then I would want the truth. I don't need to believe nonsense to give people clothes and food. You don't need religion to arrive at charity and goodwill.

Of course it isn't about use for you - if the thing you hate has a use, you minimize it. You have some personal axe to grind against religion and anyone or anything you perceive to be Theist-based stirs your anger. I show you how pointless your crusade is and you reply yeah, but religion is bad. Blah, blah, blah. It's bad, you're bad, I'm bad, humans are bad. Welcome to reality. Welcome to the improper use of a thing by a human. What an amazing discovery you've made.

 

[Husker_x]

I wish you'd get this part right. The idea that gods are man made doesn't mystically allow you to jump to the conclusion that it's a good idea to make things up and parade them around as absolute truth.

I have no idea what you're saying here. Show me where I've said this.

Humans conflict. What a concept. Guess what else? Sometimes people conflict over religion, e.g. over unsupported claims about a supernatural world none of us know anything about. How about we stop piling more conflicts onto the ones we already have? A start is to stop pretending to know things we don't that create and fuel some of our conflicts. There is no contradiction in that.

Tilting at windmills again. Your giant is religion, so of course it's the most dangerous thing, and what you focus on. But reality doesn't support your personal angst. Reality says that humans conflict. You agree with this, so all you have to do is take that next step and let go of whatever personal angst you have against religion and see reality. See the windmill for what it really is. When you're ready to do that, you'll be amazed at how peaceful life can be.

Atheism doesn't provide solace. Why would you expect it to? Sometimes when life is sh**ty enough nothing provides solace. I can tell you that from experience.

Congratulations. You've had a sh**ty life. Welcome to humanity. This doesn't, however, give a monopoly on suffering, nor make you any more an expert on it than anyone else.

Summing up your post I've concluded your position is more or less the following: Nothing matters, everything is meaningless, including the African tribes being wiped out by evil people for whatever reason. But you still care. You care enough to lie to people––to tell them something, anything, that will alleviate some of that suffering. Tell them that there's a supernatural force behind this whole sh#t-awful business, that it's a part of a divine plan, and if they believe the right things or pray to this god then everything will work out in the end.

Where am I lying to anyone? I'm saying humans conflict, humans suffer, and whatever means they can find to assuage that suffering, who are you to tell them to stop? Belief in a nonexistent god doesn't harm someone. You telling them that there's no god, there's no security blanket, doesn't help in the least. It compounds their misery by taking away the one thing they hold on to. And the arrogance is that you'd do it thinking you're doing them a favor in the midst of their suffering.

If it were me, my unabashed answer would be, "Go f*ck yourself." I don't take comfort in lies.

+1 internet tough guy points for you, I suppose. Your sh**ty life gives you license to sh#t on the next guy. You're not looking for truth, you're vindictive.

As it happens, I have done charity work even as an atheist with Christian groups. I appreciate their efforts, but once again, this isn't about use for me. I don't need to tell victims of war to take no care for the morrow, or to turn the other cheek, or that they'll see paradise, or that there's a plan. If I want to 'do unto others as I would have them do unto me,' then I would want the truth. I don't need to believe nonsense to give people clothes and food. You don't need religion to arrive at charity and goodwill.

Of course it isn't about use for you - if the thing you hate has a use, you minimize it. You have some personal axe to grind against religion and anyone or anything you perceive to be Theist-based stirs your anger. I show you how pointless your crusade is and you reply yeah, but religion is bad. Blah, blah, blah. It's bad, you're bad, I'm bad, humans are bad. Welcome to reality. Welcome to the improper use of a thing by a human. What an amazing discovery you've made.

It took a little longer this time, but at last the ad hominems come rolling in. I guess I'll have to look up a therapist to confront all this deep inner hate and turmoil you've imagined me to have. But since it's Saturday and I'll have to wait a few days, I'll go ahead and put out there that I haven't had a particularly sh**ty life. I've had a good life, but there's been tragedy in it. Religion is not a method to dump my crap on other people. It's a path to discover a wide range of issues and philosophies. Throughout this entire overlong discussion I haven't even approached anything resembling anger, hate, or vindictiveness.

Belief in a nonexistent god doesn't harm someone.

If we're going to approach catharsis, this is the moment. Belief in a nonexistent god doesn't harm someone? Oh really? What if you thought that God wanted you to die in a holy war against those that didn't believe in him, would that harm you? What if he wanted you to kill every male of a certain tribe, mutilate your flesh, or not take medicine when you're ill because it would be a sign of a lack of faith? Your over-simplification is so baselessly absurd that I can barely believe you've managed to formulate it into a sentence.

If you tell people God's watching out for them in their suffering, that he ordained all events, that there'll be a final reckoning, etc., etc., etc., and you can't demonstrate anything of the kind, you are not speaking honestly. You think it's okay to make something up instead of seeing the world for what it is. This is not a respectable way to go about life in my view. Incidentally, why does God allow entire tribes to be murdered? Why does he allow famine, pestilence, genocide, and torture? Doesn't he have the power to stop it? What are you going to do when people start asking you these questions? You're a believer. You're the expert. I don't tell anyone there is a god. I don't tell anyone there isn't. I don't think anyone knows.

And that's the truth, the only one that matters. If truth isn't your concern, our conversations are as pointless as your philosophy of meaninglessness.