Tim Beck" You can't be afraid to start over and junk everything."

My point: Taylor demonstrated real deficiencies in his throwing fundamentals all year. But, because he is a threat to take off and run, defenses load up on that and he often got to throw to open receivers. This is how we will roll with Taylor as QB, and how we can still see him give us good production through the air. He isn't a guy that will sit back there making good reads, picking apart coverages, and threading the needle. Rolling out is something that was simply not judged to be in his skillset by the staff. We haven't seen evidence of this being in his skillset, and I don't believe it is likely that the coaches just didn't know he had it in him, or knew and chose not to use it.

Also, I don't have the numbers on all the times Taylor had an opportunity to lead receivers (as in a slant or a crossing route) but threw it behind them. But it was a lot. These are the kinds of throws being talked about.

You should fill me in on what your point is. That Taylor had decent statistics, therefore he can throw rollout passes? That plays that work at the middle school level should work at the D1 level?

In the end, all that's the past and I'm sort of tired of arguing it. Time will tell if Taylor has added rollout passing to his arsenal.

 
Whatever dude. I will admit defeat, declare that that Taylor completed over 50% of his passes and and still overthrew most of them, and that the first freshman QB to start at DONU can't be taught to run to the side a few steps and dump a football. That window passed him by like 4 years ago apparently.

It's all good you're welcome to disagree. Heavily edited because I'm tired and I want to be sarcastic not a d!(k.

 
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Just so we are clear by the way, neither Hunter nor I are talking about overthrowing passes. We are talking about the slants where he didn't lead the receiver to the point where the receiver had to lean back or even fall down in making the catch. And we are using that as evidence that he isn't great on passing fundamentals. You can point to his stats all day, but the story on that is he can be an effective passer because he is a home run threat with his feet. You can just look at his passing stats post-Missouri for evidence on that.

I'm not even saying he can't add it to his arsenal. I would hope that he can. Just saying he didn't have it last year. We can agree to disagree. As you said, whatever. It isn't important. No hard feelings. :P

 
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Just so we are clear by the way, neither Hunter nor I are talking about overthrowing passes. We are talking about the slants where he didn't lead the receiver to the point where the receiver had to lean back or even fall down in making the catch. And we are using that as evidence that he isn't great on passing fundamentals. You can point to his stats all day, but the story on that is he can be an effective passer because he is a home run threat with his feet. You can just look at his passing stats post-Missouri for evidence on that.

I'm not even saying he can't add it to his arsenal. I would hope that he can. Just saying he didn't have it last year. We can agree to disagree. As you said, whatever. It isn't important. No hard feelings. :P
Then he should say what he means and not something entirely different. He completed more than half his passes which means he can't miss most of them.

He's a young QB. Of course he is going to be rocky at times just like every other freshman QB who starts.

What you're missing is that rolling out forces a defense to move with the pocket, and at some point decide whether to say on there man or go after him after he tucks it in run. It is also sometimes mentally easier because it provides a better view (less worry about passing lanes) and at the end of the play he will hopefully have an avenue to at least tuck it and turn up field if nobody is open. I don't care if he overthrew people sometimes. At some point you have to do something different because watching him drop back, not be able to see anyone (oh heavens were people open sometimes), get the deer in the headlights look, and eat a sack. Rolling out eases the passing game in the sense that it provides easier visibility. There's a football fact for you.

Young QBs with crappy fundamentals all over the country can roll out and dump off a football, or decide to tuck it and run. It is not some magical science. It might take a little coaching and it might be rocky sometimes (what does it matter if he's overthrowing it rolling out or overthrowing it on the slant?) but at least you're doing something to counter the fact that everyone is pinning their ears back. It certainly might have gone better than the "novacaine' offense turned out towards the end.

Ya I know who made the RTT reference.

One last thing, At least when he overthrows rolling out he's hopefully doing it towards the sideline and not the teeth of the defense. Something else to think about. Anyway, the current staff agrees that that tactic was missing. :koolaid2:

EDIT: I also realize you're talking about under throwing passes. I'm saying that Taylor threw a lot of errant balls all over the place and since there's no statistic to track it you have to either re-watch everything or rely on a potentially biased memory. I'm very tired as well, my bad. Doesn't change the fact that we'll never know because they did not try, and I think you're exaggerating the importance of needing to sit in the pocket when the defense is going all out to get you. :cheers

 
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One last thing, At least when he overthrows rolling out he's hopefully doing it towards the sideline and not the teeth of the defense.
hmm, I am still not sure we are quite on the same page. If we are talking about the same throws where he threw behind the receiver, then those throws happening on a rollout, would still be towards the teeth of the defense rather than the sideline.

I am interested to see how this all plays out. I don't remember, but didn't we do this (rollouts) in 2008 and 2009? Beck has made a few comments that would seem to point to either a completely different Taylor, or a completely different quarterback! I can't wait to see how our offense looks next year. GBR :)

 
One last thing, At least when he overthrows rolling out he's hopefully doing it towards the sideline and not the teeth of the defense.
hmm, I am still not sure we are quite on the same page. If we are talking about the same throws where he threw behind the receiver, then those throws happening on a rollout, would still be towards the teeth of the defense rather than the sideline.

I am interested to see how this all plays out. I don't remember, but didn't we do this (rollouts) in 2008 and 2009? Beck has made a few comments that would seem to point to either a completely different Taylor, or a completely different quarterback! I can't wait to see how our offense looks next year. GBR :)

Yea see my edit above where I explained that I missed that and why I don't think that's the heart of the issue. I will concede bad fundamentals all day which is why I didn't really focus on whether you were talking about over or under throwing. To me it's a given he has poor fundamentals and I won't dispute that, period. Whether he is under/overthrowing, get him the heck out of there once in a while. Sorry, my fault for misreading the type of errant throw the first time (to you and Hunter) and then continuing to not catch it.Are you going to seriously dispute that Taylor overthrew a ball into the teeth of the defense? :corndance Anyway, I threw the teeth comment in for arguments sake only. Yes, under throwing to the sideline can be very, very bad (pick 6). I think he could be coached to put enough on it (I don't think arm strength in the short game is going to be an issue, and if it is/was it won't for long) and the benefits (something different than sitting in the pocket eating sacks all day) outweigh the risk.

Taylor already demonstrated he had an affinity for the roll out shovel pass. Why not actually give him one by design? ;)

From what I remember Joe Ganz made a killing off of rolling out. (Not comparing the two, just responding).

 
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i guess cody green's flaming rockets to infinity and beyond would be more acceptable zoogs. the kid displays touch like a can compactor. i suppose we shall find out. ;)

 
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I love all the angst over a freshman quarterback throwing a few passes behind receivers. I remember some truly horrific passes by Martinez. I also remember some pretty nice ones. Between throwing my hands up and wondering who in the hell he was throwing that to and throwing my hands up to celebrate touchdowns, I think I saw a pretty damned good quarterback in the making.

The bizarre thing about this is, we don't have a quarterback on our roster who has demonstrated the ability to play a game better than Martinez, yet we consistently see posts eager for his replacement. Maybe Turner or Carnes are better than Martinez, but with Freshmen you're going to go through the exact same problems that Martinez went through last year ramping up to D1 speed.

I wonder how sad everyone is going to be when Martinez starts again this year.

 
i honestly think the rest of the frustration with Martinez were the sacks (26) and his inability to often

(as the season progressed) make the right read while running the zone read. you have to admit, even Rex became better at running the zone read than TM. i know, i know, the kid had a bad wheel, but it seemed his decision making got worse as the season moved on, not what you would expect from a developing QB. Then you throw in the Watson handicap.....and well... :dunno

 
I love all the angst over a freshman quarterback throwing a few passes behind receivers. I remember some truly horrific passes by Martinez. I also remember some pretty nice ones. Between throwing my hands up and wondering who in the hell he was throwing that to and throwing my hands up to celebrate touchdowns, I think I saw a pretty damned good quarterback in the making.

The bizarre thing about this is, we don't have a quarterback on our roster who has demonstrated the ability to play a game better than Martinez, yet we consistently see posts eager for his replacement. Maybe Turner or Carnes are better than Martinez, but with Freshmen you're going to go through the exact same problems that Martinez went through last year ramping up to D1 speed.

I wonder how sad everyone is going to be when Martinez starts again this year.
Just as sad as last year when Lee got beat out & zoogies led the sobfest.....whinning and crying a river all year long because Z. Lee "got screwed" and should have been the starter because he "led" that awesome 99th in the nation offense to endless glory. Dissing Tmart & Bo at every opportunity while making 10,000 excuses for SW and telling us 5,000 times how "fast" Z. Lee was.

SW being gone will be the only difference.

 
Wow, I am not even talking about starting potential or any of that here. In fact, I've even said on several occasions in this thread how we can get good production out of Taylor. I am just trying to color over misconceptions (if there are any) about Taylor being a polished passer, which he isn't. Taylor is a guy that will hurt you with his feet, and as a result it will open up some things for him passing wise. That's reality and I will be surprised if it changes significantly.

If you wanna talk Green, he has improved in his passing fundamentals and footwork by a wide margin since he stepped on campus as a horribly raw passer. But he's never shown he can put it together in game and is not, IMO, a better option than healthy Martinez because he isn't the same type of home run threat on the ground. And he has never shown the ability to put it all together and game, on the field. I did think he gave us a better shot than the injured Martinez that was worse than invisible in our final two games last year.

 
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One difference is your middle schoolers aren't going up against a Will Muschamp defense (or any D1 defense).

I think we could have slung it around more, but Texas had a great secondary, so I donno.
That was part of the problem anytime during the Callahan/Watson era when they did go up against a Will Mushamp kind of defense they were horrible and even hurt the team by turnovers going the other way.

 
Wow, I am not even talking about starting potential or any of that here. In fact, I've even said on several occasions in this thread how we can get good production out of Taylor. I am just trying to color over misconceptions (if there are any) about Taylor being a polished passer, which he isn't. Taylor is a guy that will hurt you with his feet, and as a result it will open up some things for him passing wise. That's reality and I will be surprised if it changes significantly.

If you wanna talk Green, he has improved in his passing fundamentals and footwork by a wide margin since he stepped on campus as a horribly raw passer. But he's never shown he can put it together in game and is not, IMO, a better option than healthy Martinez because he isn't the same type of home run threat on the ground. And he has never shown the ability to put it all together and game, on the field. I did think he gave us a better shot than the injured Martinez that was worse than invisible in our final two games last year.
This is a great representation of the oddness of your "take" on the state of things, Frere zoogies. On the one hand you say you will be surprised if Taylor improves significantly, but then you acknowledge that Cody has improved significantly. If Cody can do it, so can Taylor.

You have admitted that you tend to "hitch your wagon" to a specific player or coach. The flaw in that philosophy is that once you identify the guy you support, you tend to ignore facts that don't support your stance.

 
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One difference is your middle schoolers aren't going up against a Will Muschamp defense (or any D1 defense).

I think we could have slung it around more, but Texas had a great secondary, so I donno.
That was part of the problem anytime during the Callahan/Watson era when they did go up against a Will Mushamp kind of defense they were horrible and even hurt the team by turnovers going the other way.
So since it's been established that middle schoolers don't play against d1 athletes, anyone wanna seriously suggest that the roll out does not work in d1?

At some point there needed to be some kind of answer to the flooding of Caputo and the interior line that was seen at the end of the season, be it some kind of screen game or that. I don't think rolling out would have helped much vs Texas A&M (Von Miller at the Jack anyone) but against a team like UW... Like I said you have to do something... some kind of wrinkle when it's clear what you have isn't working. It might have been a triage of practice time issue I don't know.

 
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