What did we learn Michigan Game

[Archy1221]

We're talking about the risks and difficulties associated with trying to changes a quarterback's mechanics at this level so that it leads to objective improvement.

There really isn’t any risk for NU or HH.  HH is in his third year and doesn’t have the upside as is to be anything more than what he is now, a backup that will be replaced in the off-season.    
There is upside however.  He has an NFL body and decent arm strength.   He is learning how to read a defense.   Making a change to arm mechanics could be very beneficial to his development.  
 

It's just difficult, and there's plenty of empirical evidence (and experts) to support this perspective. And since none of us have likely been intimately involved with HH's training and development over the last 2-3 years, it's ignorant for any of us to analyze his current status and classify it as "weird."

There really isn’t much about playing QB that isn’t difficult.  Taking snaps I guess and learning how to hand off to a running back, but that may it.  
 

One doesn’t have to be intimately involved in HH’s training and lack of development to notice the needed change hasn’t been made.  So it’s not “ignorant” to analyze a kid with an nfl body and enough arm strength to be a starting P5 QB long term and say it’s “weird” that he hasn’t made an arm slot adjustment (for his own benefit).  It’s not like he’s lighting it up with his current status :dunno

 

[Undone]

One doesn’t have to be intimately involved in HH’s training and lack of development to notice the needed change hasn’t been made.  So it’s not “ignorant” to analyze a kid with an nfl body and enough arm strength to be a starting P5 QB long term and say it’s “weird” that he hasn’t made an arm slot adjustment (for his own benefit).  It’s not like he’s lighting it up with his current status :dunno

But here's another crazy idea (and this is of course a different train of thought): how about just not recruiting QB's that don't have decent throwing motions as high school seniors? How about targeting kids as prospects that lean towards better completion percentages and just look like decent passers?

I think that's really the issue.

And another thing I've said for a while, and this goes along with what you said about "there really isn't much about playing QB that isn't difficult" (which was a good quote, btw): When you run a zone read system, your QB spends a very significant amount of his total practice time not practicing his passing game. I think that's a big detail.

Whereas Wisconsin's QB's in the Gary Andersen/Paul Chryst/whatever era were recruited because they were good pocket passers in high school and I can guarantee they spent most of their practice time on throwing the ball. Now some of them wound up not being great (Hornibrook, e.g.). But they were still guys where when they were in 3rd & 6, they had the pedigree to scan the field and throw.

What we're rolling out is getting harder and harder to watch. Even though I still maintain that Ricky Haarberg could be pretty decent next season or in 2025. I think his throwing motion is small potatoes.

 

[Archy1221]

But here's another crazy idea (and this is of course a different train of thought): how about just not recruiting QB's that don't have decent throwing motions as high school seniors? How about targeting kids as prospects that lean towards better completion percentages and just look like decent passers?

Absolutely.  

 

[ColoradoHusk]

Absolutely.  

This is complete speculation on my part here, but before Haarberg’s senior year of high school, Frost and Verduzco were striking out on recruiting a better QB than Haarberg, and then Frost faced a lot of local pressure to offer the big kid from Kearney. Haarberg had offers from Vandy and NC State, so Frost felt pressure to offer HH. This was also peak COVID times, so visiting recruits was tougher. Looking back on it, Cole Payton was probably the better choice between the 2 in-state QB’s but that’s hindsight. 

 

[Husker in WI]

This is complete speculation on my part here, but before Haarberg’s senior year of high school, Frost and Verduzco were striking out on recruiting a better QB than Haarberg, and then Frost faced a lot of local pressure to offer the big kid from Kearney. Haarberg had offers from Vandy and NC State, so Frost felt pressure to offer HH. This was also peak COVID times, so visiting recruits was tougher. Looking back on it, Cole Payton was probably the better choice between the 2 in-state QB’s but that’s hindsight. 

There were people saying it at the time too, FWIW. It is too soon to say though - Payton has a nice role as the backup at NDSU, but honestly by looking halfway competent against Michigan Haarberg has a huge early lead.

Looking back, none of the 2021 QBs we had a even a small shot with (Jake Garcia, Dematrius Davis, Peter Colstelli) have really panned out anyway. All these 2021 guys are showing up now though - Wimsatt at Rutgers, Kaliakmanis at Minnesota,  Deacon Hill at Iowa, Altmeyer at Illinois, Sheduer at Colorado, and Haarberg were all between 25-40 ranked QBs in that class. Sanders is the only one who has shown more than flashes, and several have transferred. In retrospect maybe we should have checked out that Riley Leonard guy (58th ranked). 

 

[MyBloodIsRed16]

They could try to change it, but that's not really the point of the discussion.

We're talking about the risks and difficulties associated with trying to changes a quarterback's mechanics at this level so that it leads to objective improvement. The 'change' is but the vessel for reaching an apparent goal. There is no one saying it can't be done. It's just difficult, and there's plenty of empirical evidence (and experts) to support this perspective. And since none of us have likely been intimately involved with HH's training and development over the last 2-3 years, it's ignorant for any of us to analyze his current status and classify it as "weird." That's a bold proclamation to make, even for being online message board basement dwellers that we are.

(Also, it's not a particularly strong counter-argument to throw out arguably the world's greatest golfer and a hall of fame baseball player. By their very nature, those two guys are exceptions to the general assembly of their respective sports. They're the 1% of the 1%.)

It is a strong argument.  They changed the very thing that gave them success.  HH hasn't been completing passes at an 80% clip. So is for him to change his motion going to really hurt that much?  He's just above 50%. Not like his team to the playoffs last year with is arm talent. Matter of fact he was barely on the depth chart.  I really don't care if they do anything about his mechanics.  I'm just saying it can and has been done 

 

[StickyNote]

Those people were wrong. Trey Palmer and Ernest Hausman would have both started for Michigan. I'm taking about this years team though, which has even less talent in the two deep than last year.

We might have some younger players that have that kind of talent, but they aren't playing for us yet, so we haven't seen it. Hopefully development under Rhule is much better than the past.

Palmer for sure would have, Hausmann probably not. He isn't starting for them this year so I doubt he would have last year.

 

[The Maudfather]

Can you define "doing better with NIL?"

So is your theory that somebody was like "these guys are good enough - we shouldn't go after better players."

Or is it that we could have spent more money while still being within the rules but just didn't because we didn't think of that?

We need to be more competitive in NIL. We need to take a Texas A&M approach and spend an absurd amount of money to bring in better talent to Lincoln. Whatever we're doing currently, isn't cutting it - not even close. 

My point is that we are actively participating in NIL and paying players, but we're paying some mediocre players with poor results. 

This program is getting left in the dust.  This program is the laughing stock of college football. 

If Nebraska is ever going to find its way back, then it needs to start acting like a big boy program and recruiting at a higher level. Nebraska needs more talent. 

 

[Undone]

There were people saying it at the time too, FWIW. It is too soon to say though - Payton has a nice role as the backup at NDSU, but honestly by looking halfway competent against Michigan Haarberg has a huge early lead.

Looking back, none of the 2021 QBs we had a even a small shot with (Jake Garcia, Dematrius Davis, Peter Colstelli) have really panned out anyway. All these 2021 guys are showing up now though - Wimsatt at Rutgers, Kaliakmanis at Minnesota,  Deacon Hill at Iowa, Altmeyer at Illinois, Sheduer at Colorado, and Haarberg were all between 25-40 ranked QBs in that class. Sanders is the only one who has shown more than flashes, and several have transferred. In retrospect maybe we should have checked out that Riley Leonard guy (58th ranked). 

And it reinforces that yes, you have to develop a QB. You can't just plant the seed and walk away from it and expect that two years later it's an amazing thing.

Again with Haarberg though, not many people would have expected him to be the starter early in 2023. 

 

[ColoradoHusk]

And it reinforces that yes, you have to develop a QB. You can't just plant the seed and walk away from it and expect that two years later it's an amazing thing.

Again with Haarberg though, not many people would have expected him to be the starter early in 2023. 

Unfortunately, I don’t think it a good thing that Haarberg is being counted on to be the starter in early 2023. 

 

[Undone]

Unfortunately, I don’t think it a good thing that Haarberg is being counted on to be the starter in early 2023. 

That's exactly the point.

 

[Mavric]

We need to be more competitive in NIL. We need to take a Texas A&M approach and spend an absurd amount of money to bring in better talent to Lincoln.

All that money aTm supposedly spent got them a 5-7 record last year.

 

[Enhance]

We need to be more competitive in NIL. We need to take a Texas A&M approach and spend an absurd amount of money to bring in better talent to Lincoln. Whatever we're doing currently, isn't cutting it - not even close. 

My point is that we are actively participating in NIL and paying players, but we're paying some mediocre players with poor results. 

This program is getting left in the dust.  This program is the laughing stock of college football. 

If Nebraska is ever going to find its way back, then it needs to start acting like a big boy program and recruiting at a higher level. Nebraska needs more talent. 

So, I have a genuine NIL question (not trying to be argumentative): does anyone know if we have raw data to analyze Nebraska's NIL efforts, specifically from a financial standpoint? Or, are we hypothesizing their NIL efforts are sub par based on certain players failing to meet fan expectations?

To this point, I haven't yet seen anything related to what I'm curious about, but that doesn't mean it's non-existent. Nebraska's recruiting 100% needs to improve. It has for some time. But, is it more because Nebraska's being stingy with the checkbook, or more to do with the fact this place is a coaching carousel that hasn't done much of substance in 20+ years and has done a poor job of identifying/developing NFL talent of late?

Most people "in the know" about Nebraska's football program continually claim that Nebraska has no real financial limitations when it comes to competing nationally from an NIL standpoint, so obviously there is a disconnect somewhere.

 

[Lorewarn]

One doesn’t have to be intimately involved in HH’s training and lack of development to notice the needed change hasn’t been made.  So it’s not “ignorant” to analyze a kid with an nfl body and enough arm strength to be a starting P5 QB long term and say it’s “weird” that he hasn’t made an arm slot adjustment (for his own benefit).  It’s not like he’s lighting it up with his current status :dunno

Some of the ignorance comes from the assumption that he hasn't tried to make the adjustments, when there's just as likely a scenario where he has done the work to try and make that progress and can't.

 

[Mavric]

So, I have a genuine NIL question (not trying to be argumentative): does anyone know if we have raw data to analyze Nebraska's NIL efforts, specifically from a financial standpoint? Or, are we hypothesizing their NIL efforts are sub par based on certain players failing to meet fan expectations?

No.  There isn't anything like that.  People just like to think they have all the answers.