What is the definition of a Game Manager?

[knapplc]

Chris, you're saying you want to take another playmaker off the field in favor of a game manager? Or are you specifically talking about Martinez?

Let's say you had Quarterback X, who was a decent runner, sometimes good but not Taylor-Martinez-Early-2010 good, who is also a decent passer, maybe Zac Taylor on an average day (not a good day, just average). You would prefer to have Mr. Bland Game Manager over that? I don't think that's what you're saying, but it kinda comes across that way.

If the gist of this thread is to try to pigeonhole Martinez as a game manager, and analyze if he's good or bad at that role, I'm going to go with "BAD" x1,000. He's the antithesis of a game manager, and we do not want him on the field if that's what Beck's offense calls for. He is not a solid enough passer to be that game manager.

My hope is that we put the brakes on Martinez in 2010 due to lack of depth and the breaking-in process of the new offense/Offensive Coordinator. My further hope is that Carnes is fully ready to make a serious push at the starting job, so that we have a legit competition and the winner can fully execute Beck's offense.

 

[kchusker_chris]

I think Beck tried to turn Martinez into a game manager this year at the cost of his explosiveness. I am with you, I don't think he's a game manager. He improved leaps and bounds, but he's still no where near being adequate enough to remove himself from the game as a playmaker and become just a distributer. He's also no where near adequate in that role when the defense removes him, as a playmaker, from the game. This is what worries me...we will go up against 3-4 defenses each year that will be able to remove Taylor from the game and force him into the game manager role. We lose 2-3 of those games.

I would take Zac Taylor over 2011 T-Mart, yes. I would take a playmaker off the field if it meant the 6 other ones can be better utilized. I'd rather have 6 weapons than 1-2. Right now defenses worry little about the other 6 on the field because odds are they won't be getting the ball. In 2010 we didn't have the weapons like we do today. We needed Taylor to be what he was. I don't think we need that today. Rex/Green/Abdulla/Enunwa/Bell/Reed/Cotton/Turner/Heard. That's a lot of playmakers to defend if we have someone that can read the defense, and dritribute the ball to the right one of them. Do we have that guy? I don't think so...which is why Taylor will still be out there next year. I still have hope for him, he is just far to experienced at this point not to be at least average. Average might be all we need.

 

[knapplc]

With all of these talented WRs and talented RBs, one has to wonder why we've been recruiting dual-threat QBs. Martinez is in there not for his arm but for his legs. And while I agree in vague terms with the notion "more is better," and that if you can put yet another playmaker on the field that it's good (which is what we seem to be doing with the dual-threat QBs), in the case of Martinez where his passing is often a liability, it's a negative, not a positive.

Were he to continue to grow as a passer and better read defenses, make better throws in general and shorten up his throwing motion, I would be just fine with him behind center. I would also be fine with him if we had a Pipeline-type O Line and we pretty much shelved our passing game for a run-first/run-always offense. But that's clearly not what we're doing. We're also wasting the talents of some pretty good WRs by having a QB who is not a passing threat.

The coaches dictate the offense, call the plays and put the players in the positions they're in. Putting a guy poor passer at QB in a 50/50 pass/run offense is setting that player up for failure, and unnecessary criticism. I defend Martinez from criticism a lot mostly because he is the player he is, and I feel like he's not being properly utilized. He's going to fill the role they put him in, and as QB that's the guy running the show and the guy behind the presser microphone. He's not accomplished at either, and the coaches put him there. I can empathize with him. The player is going to want to play.

 

[zoogs]

By that definition, zoogies, would Steve Largent be a prototypical "game manager" version of a Wide Receiver? Too slow, too unathletic to play WR, but ended up in the Hall because he just kept working at it?

Is a game manager a "Plugger?" Someone who isn't flashy, but just keeps plugging away?

For a baseball equivalent, what about Greg Maddux? Never flashy, never overpowering, just a solid innings-eater. Nibbled the corners, forced ground balls, and won far more games than it seemed like he should? Is that a good analogy?

I think I would agree with the gist of that (although I don't understand baseball). I was thinking of Wes Welker for wide receivers - and was gonna say, if he were less good, it would make him a game manager type of player. I think part of what you mean by game manager is not just athleticism, but talent. Like they wouldn't be the best passers at whatever range they had, wouldn't be able to always make all the throws, but they would be adequate and work around their limitations.

I am not sure an expert game manager type would be able to make it into the HOF as a QB, though, not in the NFL. If they put up HOF numbers, then their talent level is just too high. College game is a bit different where anyone can put up big numbers.

I agree a lot with what you say in the post above, by the way. I also think Taylor would be deadliest working in spaceas a kind of slot WR type guy - get him the ball and the potential to hit a crease every time he touches it, and get him 5-6 of those chances a game. Then on top of that, give him 10-15 snaps as a Wildcat QB where he can run the zone read and throw the occasional pass. We'd get a lot of mileage out of that, and Taylor wouldn't have nearly as much on his plate, the burdens of learning all the complexities of the position and all that. And when Taylor isn't running the WildMart, we could be making use of the other playmakers we'd have - of which he would be one.

 

[Hunter94]

I think Beck tried to turn Martinez into a game manager this year at the cost of his explosiveness. I am with you, I don't think he's a game manager. He improved leaps and bounds, but he's still no where near being adequate enough to remove himself from the game as a playmaker and become just a distributer. He's also no where near adequate in that role when the defense removes him, as a playmaker, from the game. This is what worries me...we will go up against 3-4 defenses each year that will be able to remove Taylor from the game and force him into the game manager role. We lose 2-3 of those games.

I would take Zac Taylor over 2011 T-Mart, yes. I would take a playmaker off the field if it meant the 6 other ones can be better utilized. I'd rather have 6 weapons than 1-2. Right now defenses worry little about the other 6 on the field because odds are they won't be getting the ball. In 2010 we didn't have the weapons like we do today. We needed Taylor to be what he was. I don't think we need that today. Rex/Green/Abdulla/Enunwa/Bell/Reed/Cotton/Turner/Heard. That's a lot of playmakers to defend if we have someone that can read the defense, and dritribute the ball to the right one of them. Do we have that guy? I don't think so...which is why Taylor will still be out there next year. I still have hope for him, he is just far to experienced at this point not to be at least average. Average might be all we need.

pretty good anaology, he must improve or it will be more of the same....good defenses will kick our a$$.....Beck needs to grow too, alot.

 

[bshirt]

I think Beck tried to turn Martinez into a game manager this year at the cost of his explosiveness. I am with you, I don't think he's a game manager. He improved leaps and bounds, but he's still no where near being adequate enough to remove himself from the game as a playmaker and become just a distributer. He's also no where near adequate in that role when the defense removes him, as a playmaker, from the game. This is what worries me...we will go up against 3-4 defenses each year that will be able to remove Taylor from the game and force him into the game manager role. We lose 2-3 of those games.

I would take Zac Taylor over 2011 T-Mart, yes. I would take a playmaker off the field if it meant the 6 other ones can be better utilized. I'd rather have 6 weapons than 1-2. Right now defenses worry little about the other 6 on the field because odds are they won't be getting the ball. In 2010 we didn't have the weapons like we do today. We needed Taylor to be what he was. I don't think we need that today. Rex/Green/Abdulla/Enunwa/Bell/Reed/Cotton/Turner/Heard. That's a lot of playmakers to defend if we have someone that can read the defense, and dritribute the ball to the right one of them. Do we have that guy? I don't think so...which is why Taylor will still be out there next year. I still have hope for him, he is just far to experienced at this point not to be at least average. Average might be all we need.

pretty good anaology, he must improve or it will be more of the same....good defenses will kick our a$$.....Beck needs to grow too, alot.

I say BS.

I see it as without doubt as the big uglies being a far, FAR bigger variable for our offense than Tmart. Possibly even our wrs learning to "gasp".... catch the ball, remember their routes and actually being able to block somebody also. Watching Bell, Turner, Reed, etc trying to block somebody is like watching PeeWee Herman take on the Terminator.

Haha....oh, we've got a LONG time to go.......let the debates roll!

 

[zoogs]

I see it as without doubt as the big uglies being a far, FAR bigger variable for our offense than Tmart. Possibly even our wrs learning to "gasp".... catch the ball, remember their routes and actually being able to block somebody also. Watching Bell, Turner, Reed, etc trying to block somebody is like watching PeeWee Herman take on the Terminator.

Haha....oh, we've got a LONG time to go.......let the debates roll!

Watching Taylor in the pocket is like...

wait, if I say something mean, it would be ripping him <_<

Of course, OL is very important, it's where it all starts.

 

[walksalone]

I see it as without doubt as the big uglies being a far, FAR bigger variable for our offense than Tmart. Possibly even our wrs learning to "gasp".... catch the ball, remember their routes and actually being able to block somebody also. Watching Bell, Turner, Reed, etc trying to block somebody is like watching PeeWee Herman take on the Terminator.

Haha....oh, we've got a LONG time to go.......let the debates roll!

Watching Taylor in the pocket is like...

wait, if I say something mean, it would be ripping him <_<

Of course, OL is very important, it's where it all starts.

Watching T-mart in the pocket can be painful at times. When he's just lofting the ball up, I cringe. If he's throwing short passes, it's not as bad. Sometimes he takes a bit too much time in deciding if he's going to run when pressured.

 

[kchusker_chris]

I say BS.

I see it as without doubt as the big uglies being a far, FAR bigger variable for our offense than Tmart. Possibly even our wrs learning to "gasp".... catch the ball, remember their routes and actually being able to block somebody also. Watching Bell, Turner, Reed, etc trying to block somebody is like watching PeeWee Herman take on the Terminator.

Haha....oh, we've got a LONG time to go.......let the debates roll!

I agree we have issues w/ the OL. I won't go as far as you in calling your opinion BS, but I can't agree w/ it 100%. Having an inconsistent, unpredictable, unreliable (whatever term you decide to use) QB behind you each play puts a lot of preasure on the OL. Plug Ganz/Taylor into this offense and that line looks a lot better. Get someone that reads the defense better, identifies the blitz, and puts the offense into the correct plays and the OL will look a lot better. Get someone with even marginal scrambling ability and the OL will look a lot better. Get someone who can be a threat to pass the ball and the OL will look a lot better.

Bottom line, IMO having Taylor out there prevents the other 10 offensive players from playing to their full potential. Our WRs are less of a threat. Our OL is forced into bad situations, blocking blitz after blitz because Taylor is no thread to throw and can't read the defense when they change things up at halftime. Our RBs are stressed because there are 8 guys in the box every play. Our TE's aren't able to be utilized how we'd like to.

It goes on an on. Having a reliable QB out there, who is at least a threat to throw changes the entire game - and with it the performance of the other 10 guys on the field. Even his running threat is easily isolated, just bring 5-6 and collapse the pocket. No OL can stand up to that for an entire game. Ours is forced to because who we have under center.

 

[bshirt]

I say BS.

I see it as without doubt as the big uglies being a far, FAR bigger variable for our offense than Tmart. Possibly even our wrs learning to "gasp".... catch the ball, remember their routes and actually being able to block somebody also. Watching Bell, Turner, Reed, etc trying to block somebody is like watching PeeWee Herman take on the Terminator.

Haha....oh, we've got a LONG time to go.......let the debates roll!

I agree we have issues w/ the OL. I won't go as far as you in calling your opinion BS, but I can't agree w/ it 100%. Having an inconsistent, unpredictable, unreliable (whatever term you decide to use) QB behind you each play puts a lot of preasure on the OL. Plug Ganz/Taylor into this offense and that line looks a lot better. Get someone that reads the defense better, identifies the blitz, and puts the offense into the correct plays and the OL will look a lot better. Get someone with even marginal scrambling ability and the OL will look a lot better. Get someone who can be a threat to pass the ball and the OL will look a lot better.

Bottom line, IMO having Taylor out there prevents the other 10 offensive players from playing to their full potential. Our WRs are less of a threat. Our OL is forced into bad situations, blocking blitz after blitz because Taylor is no thread to throw and can't read the defense when they change things up at halftime. Our RBs are stressed because there are 8 guys in the box every play. Our TE's aren't able to be utilized how we'd like to.

It goes on an on. Having a reliable QB out there, who is at least a threat to throw changes the entire game - and with it the performance of the other 10 guys on the field. Even his running threat is easily isolated, just bring 5-6 and collapse the pocket. No OL can stand up to that for an entire game. Ours is forced to because who we have under center.

I too won't go as far as saying BS (this time) but nevertheless......

You're totally ignoring the assets Tmart brings to our offense. You really think opponent DCs ignore Tmart's running threat? You really think they don't adjust for that?

Ganz or Taylor would bring "zero" running threat. "Zero". Our run-first offense would take a HUGE hit with being able to run the ball as the defense wouldn't adjust their defense one iota for the running threat Ganz or Taylor would bring. Lol.....it would be like watching Z. Lee running (plodding) the option again. Z. Taylor running the option? J. Ganz the zone-read? Good gawd, Chris.

Lastly, from folks I respect on this board and other forums I've heard repeatably that the reason Carnes is so far behind Tmart is because Tmart is far, far better at reading defenses and adjusting for it. So with full respect I must again call BS on your claim he can't or doesn't read defenses. That's simply not true which deflates your whole argument.

 

[kchusker_chris]

I too won't go as far as saying BS (this time) but nevertheless......

You're totally ignoring the assets Tmart brings to our offense. You really think opponent DCs ignore Tmart's running threat? You really think they don't adjust for that?

Ganz or Taylor would bring "zero" running threat. "Zero". Our run-first offense would take a HUGE hit with being able to run the ball as the defense wouldn't adjust their defense one iota for the running threat Ganz or Taylor would bring. Lol.....it would be like watching Z. Lee running (plodding) the option again. Z. Taylor running the option? J. Ganz the zone-read? Good gawd, Chris.

Lastly, from folks I respect on this board and other forums I've heard repeatably that the reason Carnes is so far behind Tmart is because Tmart is far, far better at reading defenses and adjusting for it. So with full respect I must again call BS on your claim he can't or doesn't read defenses. That's simply not true which deflates your whole argument.

I'm not ignoring the assets TMart brings. And you can tell I certianly don't think DCs ignore his running threat. In fact, I think that's all the DCs care about...because that's the only threat he brings to the table. They load the box with 8 guys because he can't pass. Don't you think that hurts Rex/Abdulla/Green/Heard coming out of the backfrield as much as it hurts Taylor's ability to run?

And this is about a game manager - I could care less if Ganz/Taylor are a threat to run...because we have 4 other guys that could be in that backfield that are. And with Ganz keeping the defense honest...Burkhead isn't facing 8 guys...he's facing 6. Since a RB carries the ball 40 times a game, and Taylor maybe 10....I'd rather have the 40 carries against 6 guys, than the 50 againt 8. That extra 10 carries T-Mart brings to the table is negated by the defense once it averages out.

Lastly, if you are basing your opinion of his ability to read defenses on Carnes ability (or lack of) i'm calling BS on your argument. Saying T-Mart doesn't suck as bad as the backup in no way means he is worth a sh1t at it...it just means he's better than the guy behind him. he's better than me I'm sure...doesn't mean he can read a defense.

 

[bshirt]

I too won't go as far as saying BS (this time) but nevertheless......

You're totally ignoring the assets Tmart brings to our offense. You really think opponent DCs ignore Tmart's running threat? You really think they don't adjust for that?

Ganz or Taylor would bring "zero" running threat. "Zero". Our run-first offense would take a HUGE hit with being able to run the ball as the defense wouldn't adjust their defense one iota for the running threat Ganz or Taylor would bring. Lol.....it would be like watching Z. Lee running (plodding) the option again. Z. Taylor running the option? J. Ganz the zone-read? Good gawd, Chris.

Lastly, from folks I respect on this board and other forums I've heard repeatably that the reason Carnes is so far behind Tmart is because Tmart is far, far better at reading defenses and adjusting for it. So with full respect I must again call BS on your claim he can't or doesn't read defenses. That's simply not true which deflates your whole argument.

I'm not ignoring the assets TMart brings. And you can tell I certianly don't think DCs ignore his running threat. In fact, I think that's all the DCs care about...because that's the only threat he brings to the table. They load the box with 8 guys because he can't pass. Don't you think that hurts Rex/Abdulla/Green/Heard coming out of the backfrield as much as it hurts Taylor's ability to run?

And this is about a game manager - I could care less if Ganz/Taylor are a threat to run...because we have 4 other guys that could be in that backfield that are. And with Ganz keeping the defense honest...Burkhead isn't facing 8 guys...he's facing 6. Since a RB carries the ball 40 times a game, and Taylor maybe 10....I'd rather have the 40 carries against 6 guys, than the 50 againt 8. That extra 10 carries T-Mart brings to the table is negated by the defense once it averages out.

Lastly, if you are basing your opinion of his ability to read defenses on Carnes ability (or lack of) i'm calling BS on your argument. Saying T-Mart doesn't suck as bad as the backup in no way means he is worth a sh1t at it...it just means he's better than the guy behind him. he's better than me I'm sure...doesn't mean he can read a defense.

So, in summary you're just saying Tmart "can't pass".

Well, the numbers say he sure as hell can pass better than Ganz/Z. Taylor/Z. Lee can run the ball. That's for damn sure. Look Chris, no matter how much you hate it, NU is going to emphasize running the ball. We're "not" going to return to fluffball and you're having wet dreams if you think there's boatloads of qbs out there that are a combination D. Marino & M. Vick.

Hell, even if we had Dan Marino and you were losing your mind weekly to the overwhelming bliss of throwing it on every down......just how many drops a game would our stone-handed wrs have? Haha....you might need a Cray super-computer to keep up with that number.

We'll just agree to disagree my friend. Have an ice cold one on me!

GBR!!

 

[kchusker_chris]

I'm certainly not after some Dan Marino. What I want is a guy like Ganz, or Persa, or Reesing. A guy that can scramble out of the pocket and pick up first downs. A guy that is a threat to throw. A guy that doesn't turn our offense 1 dimensional.

We can emphasize running the ball without the QB being the guy that has to run the ball. Persa ran all over us, and he's not exactly fast. He's dual threat...but his arm is normally what hurts you. Why can't we find a QB that can run, versus trying to find a running back that can throw?

Again, Martinez has come a long ways - I still have hope for him. But if 2011 Martinez is what we're going to get for the next 2 years them we might as well move on to someone else. We are essentially wasting Bell/Enunwa/Reed/Turner. I have no idea how we were able to hang on to Westerkamp...it's likely the most impressive sales job this staff has done in their 4 years here. How do you pitch Nebraska to a highly touted WR when martinez is your QB and the next guy likely isn't even on the roster?

EDIT: and i've been saying Martinez can't pass, he can't read defenses, and he can't scramble (which is a major reason why you want a dual threat QB)

 

[kchusker_chris]

the numbers say he sure as hell can pass better than Ganz/Z. Taylor/Z. Lee can run the ball.

Had to quote this piece - because it's the point I'm trying to emphasize that I'm maybe not getting across. On the field...there is only 1 guy that generally throws the ball. The QB. So he has to be able to do that. However, on the field there are 4-6 guys that can run the ball at any given time. So...while Ganz couldn't exactly run (he could scramble better than Martinez throws though)...it doesn't matter because there are other guys on the field that can.

However, when Martinez can't throw...it means the team can't throw...and that's a major issue. it's a "team" sport.

Martinez essentially reduces the team's effectiveness with his ineffectiveness. A QB that isn't exactly a great runner doesn't reduce the team, because there are plenty of other runners on the field to make up for that. And the fact that he can pass opens it up for them so much more than Taylor's legs can.

 

[Hunter94]

I'm certainly not after some Dan Marino. What I want is a guy like Ganz, or Persa, or Reesing. A guy that can scramble out of the pocket and pick up first downs. A guy that is a threat to throw. A guy that doesn't turn our offense 1 dimensional.

We can emphasize running the ball without the QB being the guy that has to run the ball. Persa ran all over us, and he's not exactly fast. He's dual threat...but his arm is normally what hurts you. Why can't we find a QB that can run, versus trying to find a running back that can throw?

Again, Martinez has come a long ways - I still have hope for him. But if 2011 Martinez is what we're going to get for the next 2 years them we might as well move on to someone else. We are essentially wasting Bell/Enunwa/Reed/Turner. I have no idea how we were able to hang on to Westerkamp...it's likely the most impressive sales job this staff has done in their 4 years here. How do you pitch Nebraska to a highly touted WR when martinez is your QB and the next guy likely isn't even on the roster?

EDIT: and i've been saying Martinez can't pass, he can't read defenses, and he can't scramble (which is a major reason why you want a dual threat QB)

he can't scramble, that is obvious and his run threat is straight ahead off the zone read.......that's it, easy to defend if you think about it, as most teams have figured us out now, the big surprise threat is now gone, for the most part.