Who is faster?

[gobiggergoredder]

That proves zilch for me.

I'm responsible for putting my opinion on here in 99% of the posts that I make. I just don't understand when some post facts people still want to tell them they are wrong.

What is football speed? Anyone have any good material on what football speed is? I understand the theory, but I've never seen anything relevant that explains it. How is it measured? How do you know someone has it or doesn't have it? Why is football speed different from baseball speed, track speed, bobsled speed....? How does a hit from someone that is 240 lbs indicate how fast you are?

Where is the data some people put pads on and get faster/slower more so then others? What characteristics do you look for to decide whether someone will be faster/slower in pads? Why hasn't the combine figured this out and had players try out in pads? Isn't the NFL about money...Why would they risk doing assessments when players don't have pads on? Why has the NFL not caught on to football speed?

Let me now transition back to my opinion. I don't think many of you have even seen Robinson play. To say football you have to cut and explode from your cut and be able to change direction....so Martinez is faster means to me you aren't familiar with Robinson. I'm not going to make the statement that Robinson is faster because of a highlight video, but I sure as hell am not going to say Martinez is faster because of the Sun Belt Conference, K-State and Washington Part I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Ac8PAQutw

 

[huskerfan333157]

That proves zilch for me.

I'm responsible for putting my opinion on here in 99% of the posts that I make. I just don't understand when some post facts people still want to tell them they are wrong.

What is football speed? Anyone have any good material on what football speed is? I understand the theory, but I've never seen anything relevant that explains it. How is it measured? How do you know someone has it or doesn't have it? Why is football speed different from baseball speed, track speed, bobsled speed....? How does a hit from someone that is 240 lbs indicate how fast you are?

Where is the data some people put pads on and get faster/slower more so then others? What characteristics do you look for to decide whether someone will be faster/slower in pads? Why hasn't the combine figured this out and had players try out in pads? Isn't the NFL about money...Why would they risk doing assessments when players don't have pads on? Why has the NFL not caught on to football speed?

Let me now transition back to my opinion. I don't think many of you have even seen Robinson play. To say football you have to cut and explode from your cut and be able to change direction....so Martinez is faster means to me you aren't familiar with Robinson. I'm not going to make the statement that Robinson is faster because of a highlight video, but I sure as hell am not going to say Martinez is faster because of the Sun Belt Conference, K-State and Washington Part I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Ac8PAQutw

Great post and I could not have said it better mysel.

 

[mmmtodd]

did either one of you ever wear pads? or set foot on a football field?

Notes: The old adage of "playing speed" versus "timed speed" was on display when the receivers worked out. Edmund Gates of Abilene Christian ran a pair of swift 40s, clocking under 4.4. Meanwhile, Jeremy Kerley of TCU struggled to get under 4.6, while Vincent Brown of San Diego State was one-tenth of a second slower. Yet when it was time to catch the football, it was Kerley and Brown who looked as though they had the 4.4 speed ... while Gates pace slowed significantly.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/02/27/wideouts.combine/index.html#ixzz1FFhm0J00

one of thousands over time

this isnt something new.

lazy fans can search Chad Johnson and his combine results. true fans will know that he is OchoCinco.

is it an argument to the thread title? no. but it puts it in perspective. john q public can run as fast as they want. Maybe X is faster than Y. But on what does that actually matter?

Jerry Rice. Niles Paul ran a faster forty.

EDIT: hey, looks like SI embeds their stories when you C&P even a bit of them. I think i like that.

 

[robsker]

That proves zilch for me.

I'm responsible for putting my opinion on here in 99% of the posts that I make. I just don't understand when some post facts people still want to tell them they are wrong.

What is football speed? Anyone have any good material on what football speed is? I understand the theory, but I've never seen anything relevant that explains it. How is it measured? How do you know someone has it or doesn't have it? Why is football speed different from baseball speed, track speed, bobsled speed....? How does a hit from someone that is 240 lbs indicate how fast you are?

Where is the data some people put pads on and get faster/slower more so then others? What characteristics do you look for to decide whether someone will be faster/slower in pads? Why hasn't the combine figured this out and had players try out in pads? Isn't the NFL about money...Why would they risk doing assessments when players don't have pads on? Why has the NFL not caught on to football speed?

Let me now transition back to my opinion. I don't think many of you have even seen Robinson play. To say football you have to cut and explode from your cut and be able to change direction....so Martinez is faster means to me you aren't familiar with Robinson. I'm not going to make the statement that Robinson is faster because of a highlight video, but I sure as hell am not going to say Martinez is faster because of the Sun Belt Conference, K-State and Washington Part I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Ac8PAQutw

I don't know if this will help, but from my perspective, football speed --- in this case --- as measured for a defensive player ... can be explained in the following manner. In order for a defensive player to make a tackle they must: 1) read the play --- how much time does it take the player to read the play (call it T1); 2) how much time does it take the player to react (start moving) in view of having read the play (call it T2); 3) what angle does the player take to pursue the play --- if a good angle is taken, the distance traveled is lesser --- if a bad angle is taken the distance traveled is greater, or they miss the man (call it D1), and 4) how quickly can the player cover the ground (call it T3), once the play has been read, the player has reacted, and taken the angle.

Thus, for this linebacker, safety... football speed is T1 + T2 + (T3xD1)

Or the speed is the sum of the time for reading the play, reacting to the read, and the time it takes to cover the angle taken to the ball carrier. Only one of those three times is related to straight-ahead track-like speed (that is, of course, T3). You see it all the time --- a player with 4.7 speed (track 40) who reads plays quickly, who reacts instantly to the read, and who takes good angles may be much "faster" as a defensive player on the field than is a 4.5 guy who reads plays slowly, is not so quick to react and who takes bad angles. An example --- I have no idea how fast Lavonte David is in the 40 --- but he reads plays and reacts almost instantly, takes great angles and is really, really football fast. And, he also is well positioned before the play starts too.

Now this post is about comparing offensive players --- and the concept of football read/react speed, while applicable hugely to certain defensive players, is no so much applicable to offensive skill position players.

Regarding the speed of a QB... straight-line 40 type speed --- does it really relate to how well they run?

I'm not convinced. It is a parameter. But so too is field vision, quickness, elusiveness, balance, power, timing, ability to use blockers, and the ability to change speeds and take good escape angles. So, straight-line speed is one of what... about 10 parameters to assess running ability?

To the point... Robinson is a better runner than is a healthy TMart --- and is light years ahead of TMart when TMart is less than healthy (which he was 1/2 of last season).

 

[nhuskers5]

It depends on the distance...Martinez is a 4.6 guy, he just has absolutely incredible acceleration. I'd say Robinson in a 40, Martinez in a 20

 

[gobiggergoredder]

did either one of you ever wear pads? or set foot on a football field?

other than that, pretty average high school sports careers. qualified for state wrestling a couple times, never placing with an overall record of 2-4, set my schools record for takedowns in a year, returned kicks and punts and led my team in interceptions (5) my senior year returning two for td's, blah blah blah. Just your average overachieving runt.

Good stuff man. I couldn't possibly compare to that. You're the man!

 

[knapplc]

Dennard Robinson is fast. Like, crazy fast.

Taylor Martinez is fast. Like, crazy fast.

Who is faster? Who cares? The difference between the two would likely be something like two hundredths of a second. That's such a minute difference that even if you found out who was faster, you wouldn't be determining anything of value.

On the field both guys demonstrate the ability to break away from defenders, time and time again. Get them in the open field and the defender will have to have 1) help and 2) an angle to stop them from scoring. That's all you need to know.

 

[gobiggergoredder]

I don't know if this will help, but from my perspective, football speed --- in this case --- as measured for a defensive player ... can be explained in the following manner. In order for a defensive player to make a tackle they must: 1) read the play --- how much time does it take the player to read the play (call it T1); 2) how much time does it take the player to react (start moving) in view of having read the play (call it T2); 3) what angle does the player take to pursue the play --- if a good angle is taken, the distance traveled is lesser --- if a bad angle is taken the distance traveled is greater, or they miss the man (call it D1), and 4) how quickly can the player cover the ground (call it T3), once the play has been read, the player has reacted, and taken the angle.

Thus, for this linebacker, safety... football speed is T1 + T2 + (T3xD1)

Or the speed is the sum of the time for reading the play, reacting to the read, and the time it takes to cover the angle taken to the ball carrier. Only one of those three times is related to straight-ahead track-like speed (that is, of course, T3). You see it all the time --- a player with 4.7 speed (track 40) who reads plays quickly, who reacts instantly to the read, and who takes good angles may be much "faster" as a defensive player on the field than is a 4.5 guy who reads plays slowly, is not so quick to react and who takes bad angles. An example --- I have no idea how fast Lavonte David is in the 40 --- but he reads plays and reacts almost instantly, takes great angles and is really, really football fast. And, he also is well positioned before the play starts too.

Now this post is about comparing offensive players --- and the concept of football read/react speed, while applicable hugely to certain defensive players, is no so much applicable to offensive skill position players.

Regarding the speed of a QB... straight-line 40 type speed --- does it really relate to how well they run?

I'm not convinced. It is a parameter. But so too is field vision, quickness, elusiveness, balance, power, timing, ability to use blockers, and the ability to change speeds and take good escape angles. So, straight-line speed is one of what... about 10 parameters to assess running ability?

To the point... Robinson is a better runner than is a healthy TMart --- and is light years ahead of TMart when TMart is less than healthy (which he was 1/2 of last season).

I know it's wrong, but I can't help it. Sorry Rob.

 

[robsker]

I don't know if this will help, but from my perspective, football speed --- in this case --- as measured for a defensive player ... can be explained in the following manner. In order for a defensive player to make a tackle they must: 1) read the play --- how much time does it take the player to read the play (call it T1); 2) how much time does it take the player to react (start moving) in view of having read the play (call it T2); 3) what angle does the player take to pursue the play --- if a good angle is taken, the distance traveled is lesser --- if a bad angle is taken the distance traveled is greater, or they miss the man (call it D1), and 4) how quickly can the player cover the ground (call it T3), once the play has been read, the player has reacted, and taken the angle.

Thus, for this linebacker, safety... football speed is T1 + T2 + (T3xD1)

Or the speed is the sum of the time for reading the play, reacting to the read, and the time it takes to cover the angle taken to the ball carrier. Only one of those three times is related to straight-ahead track-like speed (that is, of course, T3). You see it all the time --- a player with 4.7 speed (track 40) who reads plays quickly, who reacts instantly to the read, and who takes good angles may be much "faster" as a defensive player on the field than is a 4.5 guy who reads plays slowly, is not so quick to react and who takes bad angles. An example --- I have no idea how fast Lavonte David is in the 40 --- but he reads plays and reacts almost instantly, takes great angles and is really, really football fast. And, he also is well positioned before the play starts too.

Now this post is about comparing offensive players --- and the concept of football read/react speed, while applicable hugely to certain defensive players, is no so much applicable to offensive skill position players.

Regarding the speed of a QB... straight-line 40 type speed --- does it really relate to how well they run?

I'm not convinced. It is a parameter. But so too is field vision, quickness, elusiveness, balance, power, timing, ability to use blockers, and the ability to change speeds and take good escape angles. So, straight-line speed is one of what... about 10 parameters to assess running ability?

To the point... Robinson is a better runner than is a healthy TMart --- and is light years ahead of TMart when TMart is less than healthy (which he was 1/2 of last season).

I know it's wrong, but I can't help it. Sorry Rob.

OK then --- I'll simplify it for you. Track speed for a defensive player (secondary and LB'ers) is over-rated as a factor because real-world effectiveness on the field is determined by the time it takes a player to read the play, respond to the read, the angle they take to arrive at the play and the speed they have in pursuit. Thus, straight-ahead speed is 1 of 4 factors. For an offensive players running ability, straight-ahead speed is 1 of 10 factors that dictate effectiveness. All sorts of players who are awesome are not very fast. Many who have awesome speed are not very good. The correlation is not that great between track speed (except at extremes) and football effectiveness.

Simple enough for you?

 

[druski_2k5]

I don't know if this will help, but from my perspective, football speed --- in this case --- as measured for a defensive player ... can be explained in the following manner. In order for a defensive player to make a tackle they must: 1) read the play --- how much time does it take the player to read the play (call it T1); 2) how much time does it take the player to react (start moving) in view of having read the play (call it T2); 3) what angle does the player take to pursue the play --- if a good angle is taken, the distance traveled is lesser --- if a bad angle is taken the distance traveled is greater, or they miss the man (call it D1), and 4) how quickly can the player cover the ground (call it T3), once the play has been read, the player has reacted, and taken the angle.

Thus, for this linebacker, safety... football speed is T1 + T2 + (T3xD1)

Or the speed is the sum of the time for reading the play, reacting to the read, and the time it takes to cover the angle taken to the ball carrier. Only one of those three times is related to straight-ahead track-like speed (that is, of course, T3). You see it all the time --- a player with 4.7 speed (track 40) who reads plays quickly, who reacts instantly to the read, and who takes good angles may be much "faster" as a defensive player on the field than is a 4.5 guy who reads plays slowly, is not so quick to react and who takes bad angles. An example --- I have no idea how fast Lavonte David is in the 40 --- but he reads plays and reacts almost instantly, takes great angles and is really, really football fast. And, he also is well positioned before the play starts too.

Now this post is about comparing offensive players --- and the concept of football read/react speed, while applicable hugely to certain defensive players, is no so much applicable to offensive skill position players.

Regarding the speed of a QB... straight-line 40 type speed --- does it really relate to how well they run?

I'm not convinced. It is a parameter. But so too is field vision, quickness, elusiveness, balance, power, timing, ability to use blockers, and the ability to change speeds and take good escape angles. So, straight-line speed is one of what... about 10 parameters to assess running ability?

To the point... Robinson is a better runner than is a healthy TMart --- and is light years ahead of TMart when TMart is less than healthy (which he was 1/2 of last season).

OK then --- I'll simplify it for you. Track speed for a defensive player (secondary and LB'ers) is over-rated as a factor because real-world effectiveness on the field is determined by the time it takes a player to read the play, respond to the read, the angle they take to arrive at the play and the speed they have in pursuit. Thus, straight-ahead speed is 1 of 4 factors. For an offensive players running ability, straight-ahead speed is 1 of 10 factors that dictate effectiveness. All sorts of players who are awesome are not very fast. Many who have awesome speed are not very good. The correlation is not that great between track speed (except at extremes) and football effectiveness.

Simple enough for you?

Interesting analysis, and this does play a part in it. However, we are just talking about a foot-race right? So the only factor would be just straight-line speed, and not the ability to make plays? Which Martinez still needs to make people miss in the open field. Martinez has great acceleration, but Robinson is a college sprinter, which Huskerfan333157 stated, you need acceleration, burst and quickness.

Martinez is fast, but Robinson is on a planet of his own. Which would be just straight line speed, and not taking angles, talking about defensive players getting to the ball, we are just talking about a foot-race, two guys, one goal, to beat the other one, in a straight line race, not racing in circles, or zig-zags or an obstacle course.

 

[mmmtodd]

did either one of you ever wear pads? or set foot on a football field?

other than that, pretty average high school sports careers. qualified for state wrestling a couple times, never placing with an overall record of 2-4, set my schools record for takedowns in a year, returned kicks and punts and led my team in interceptions (5) my senior year returning two for td's, blah blah blah. Just your average overachieving runt.

Good stuff man. I couldn't possibly compare to that. You're the man!

thats what she said!

 

[BlueInTheFace]

At the recent B1G Media days, Denard Robinson says one of the strangest questions he was asked over the weekend was "Can he beat T. Mart in a race?" His answer was pretty funny (for me at least). Anyways, what do you guys think? Probably won't be able to tell until their both on the field together this year! So excited. Sorry for the pointlessness of this thread but you seem like good dudes and my excitement for football has turned me into an 8 year old.

Not sure if this link will work but the question comes at 2:10 in the video "Wolverine's at B1G Media Day".

http://www.mgoblue.com/allaccess/

 

[The Dude]

Maybe last year at this time, but now, most likely not.

 

[knapplc]

They are both blazingly fast when healthy. We'll have to see how Martinez has healed up from his leg injuries.

 

[The Dude]

Martinez putting on some weight might make him lose a step, even if he is 100%. If it makes him more durable, it's worth it. Although I heard he got tennis elbow playing ping pong.