Why Are You an Atheist or a Believer?

[Husker_x]

So the other day I got a private message from TGHusker. He expressed curiosity about how someone like me could go from accepting the Christian faith to holding the positions I now do. I hope I am not trespassing on the privacy of the conversation, but I figured that since I am going to share the story with one Huskerboard member, I might as well share it with everyone. If TGHusker (or anyone else) would prefer to keep the conversation in PMs, that's fine with me.

First, a few of disclaimers.

1. The quoted text below is an edited version of a letter I sent to a few close friends and family members who were curious about what the hell had happened to me. If you had known me ten years ago, you probably would be shocked to think I was even capable of writing something like this.

2. Since I had already written versions of this story in the past a few times, I decided to use the core of the material but rework it so it would make sense in the context of a message board. I cut out some of the more personal/private parts but kept the bulk of the relevant material. My goal with the letter was to be clear but firm, and to keep emotion out of it as much as possible. I don't know if it would be the best approach for anyone else considering doing this, but I felt it was the best of bad options in my own situation.

3. My hope in posting this is not to wage the Religion Wars again, but rather to open up the forum to anyone else with similar stories. I've heard from many of you over the past couple of years, or at least gleaned a vague idea of what happened in your own lives, but if you feel like telling the story in full here, I'd be happy to read it, as I'm sure others would be.

4. This thread isn't just for atheists/agnostics/NONES to congratulate each other. If you're a believer feel free to join in. Also don't hesitate to scrutinize what I've said. Just because it's personal doesn't mean it's above discussion or criticism.

Why I'm an Atheist​

​

I want to keep this letter as brief as I can. Rather than posting a massive preemptive strike of tangled arguments common to the debate over the existence of God, I would rather begin by sharing my own story and explaining in the clearest terms possible why I now hold the positions I do. I will make several claims throughout this letter and I’m sure many of you will disagree with them. However, I believe that truth has nothing to fear from investigation, and I am both able and willing to defend and and provide evidence for all of the conclusions that I will share with you. I am also happy to answer any questions or objections you might have. Most Americans who identify as atheists are ex-Christians and arrived at their position in the same way I did––through rigorous investigation of the facts without any concern for the difficult emotions that sometimes come with the discovery of new and uncomfortable information.

I’ve had an interest in philosophy and religion since high school. I especially enjoyed theology, and I took seriously the admonition of I Peter 3:15 to “always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you for the hope that lives within you.” I studied apologetics obsessively, especially the methods of debunking religions like Mormonism, Islam, Scientology, and others. In college I had many conversations/debates with non-Christians, even atheists––people I had never actually encountered until leaving the insular world of Christian communities––and it was by having these encounters that the seeds of doubt were first planted. I was astonished that not only could my atheist friends answer all of my practiced objections about evolution, morality, the bible, history, logic, etc.; they also tended to have a knowledge of the Bible that far surpassed your average Christian.

Over time I began to notice something troubling about my thought process. While my Christian education had provided me with the tools to study the Bible (and a lot of other things), it had also constructed a kind of paradigm-box for the mind. Like most everyone I knew growing up, the Bible was the primary source of information. I believed the Bible to be a book without mistake or contradiction––inerrant, the absolute and final word of truth on history, creation, morality, the meaning of life, and the life to come. You are free in Christianity (most of the time, anyway) to argue finer points of theology. However, by playing that game you manage to avoid a much subtler and more important question: How do we know that the Bible itself is what it claims to be? I read a lot of material and had several conversations with very intelligent people of faith, but I was never able to find a satisfactory answer to this question. Over a period of years the question stayed with me, and my nagging doubts began to grow.

Around the time that I was wrapping up my four-year degree, I came to a point where I knew I could no longer ignore my suspicions, and that I needed to seek out better information. I was aware that most of my knowledge about atheism specifically had come from second-hand sources, filtered through apologists who trained me to ignore, avoid, rationalize, pray about, or dismiss any skepticism. But I knew that if God really existed, he would easily be able to provide the reassurance I was craving, so I set myself on a path of research to find out what the Bible really was, when, where, and how it was formed, and pointed the same critical eye on my own faith as I had done for many others. I read book after book, article after article, watched debate after debate from the leading theologians, scholars, and textual critics of our day. As a result of this long and at times very painful process, I was forced to conclude that belief in the Bible’s inerrancy is nothing but a presupposition. It cannot be supported rationally or factually. It can only be dogmatically believed via the application of circular reasoning: The Bible is true because the Bible says it’s true. Christianity itself rests on this presupposition.

Through my research I discovered that the simplest and best explanation for the Bible is that it is a man-made document and an obvious one. Generally speaking, the style of writing is mythical, containing fantastic stories about talking snakes and donkeys, forbidden trees, men who live hundreds of years or draw superhuman strength from the length of their hair, hordes of people two million strong wandering a vast wilderness for forty years––stories that defy the historical record, the scientific record, and common sense. You can trace many of the myths found in Genesis to other, more ancient near-Eastern cultures and religious texts like the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Enuma Elish. The God of the Old Testament is said to be a morally perfect and superior being, but if you remove the filter of faith and simply read the book, it is clear that his character and actions are completely inconsistent with such a claim. His stated approval of or direct involvement with slavery (Exodus 21:20-21), genocide (Genesis ch. 6-7, I Samuel 15:7-8, Joshua 10:36-37), the slaughter of children (II Kings 2:23-24), famine (Jeremiah 16:4), plagues (Exodus ch. 8-9), and wars of conquest (Joshua, Judges, I-II Kings, I-II Chronicles, etc.) prohibit him from consideration as a moral being, let alone a perfect one. These actions and attitudes are irreconcilable with the claims made by Christians about an all-loving God, but they are perfectly consistent with the brutality of ancient near-Eastern cultures and the religions they invented to justify their inhumanity. Now it is true that very few of the stories in the Bible can be verified historically (in fact many of them directly contradict archaeological evidence). But if you take the Bible literally as many Christians do, these problems are unavoidable.

The core of the Christian canon, the four gospels, also present extraordinary claims about historical events, and yet the gospels themselves are not evidence, much less extraordinary evidence. The names we give the gospels are traditional only. Historically speaking, they are anonymous books written by non-eye witnesses many decades after the events they purport to describe. The gospels are filled with contradictions small and large, dissimilarities, confusions, and historical inaccuracies. These are nothing new. Founding Father Thomas Paine wrote a book called The Age of Reason as early as the 1800s detailing these problems when a historical-critical approach to the Bible was first developing (it’s now the dominant view in seminaries across the country). A much larger problem for the Bible’s reputability is the simple fact that we do not have an authentic original manuscript of a single book. What we have are copies of copies of copies passed down through the ages by hand. No two manuscripts in existence are identical, and the earliest complete copies we have date no earlier than the second or third centuries. Basically, if there ever was an inerrant Bible, it no longer exists. I find that impossible reconcile with the perfect plan of an all knowing God.

There are also human fingerprints smeared all over the centuries-long political struggle to finally produce what we now know as the Biblical canon (a collection which still differs from the Roman Catholic canon to this day, by the way). We do know of other, earlier attempts to produce a canon, the earliest being the work of Marcion of Sinope. It was a heavily edited copy of Luke and a handful of Paul’s letters. His theology was completely foreign to any modern understanding of Christianity. The more I looked, the more obvious it became that the Bible you read from on Sundays is the product of little more than happenstance. There are ‘apocryphal’ books that were ultimately discarded, but which could have just as easily been included, and books like Revelation which only narrowly made the cut. The rationale behind the books which were finally included is/was so paper thin it’s mind boggling. In short, claims of the Bible’s inerrancy are as extraordinary as the stories found in its pages.

During the same period when I was studying the Bible and its historicity, I reexamined common arguments put forward by apologists like Matt Slick, Ray Comfort, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, William Lane Craig, et al for the existence of God. Arguments I had even used myself against other faiths. When removed from the tar pit of presupposition, it’s not all that difficult to conclude that no one in the history of religion has put forward a compelling argument for the existence of any god. All of the arguments made by the gentlemen I mentioned have been refuted repeatedly. One of the most striking flaws all of their arguments share in common is that even if they were logically consistent, they could just as easily be used as validation by Muslims, Jews, Deists or any other faith. In fact, they routinely are used by apologists of other faiths.

The discovery of this information was not a single event. Unlike conversion to religion which can happen in an instant, de-conversion is usually a journey of a thousand small steps. Along the way I grew increasingly skeptical of authority figures I had put my trust in and was forced to reexamine myself and what I thought I knew about a lot of things. This includes people like Young Earth Creationist Kent Hovind, who lies repeatedly about his credentials (he has neither a PhD––only a mail-order diploma from an unaccredited mill called Patriot University––nor any high school science credentials/teaching experience), and yet he is/was looked on by a disturbing number of Christians, including myself, not only as an Einsteinesque revolutionary, but an expert in damn near everything else. Contrary to Hovind’s seminars of nonsense, there is a deluge of evidence for evolution.

Evangelical Christian and founder of the Human Genome Project Dr. Francis Collins has said that even if the only evidence we had for evolution came from the genetic code, it would be all that was necessary to make a slam-dunk case for our kinship with all life on this planet (and the time-scale it takes to see species diversify like they have). Fortunately, it is not even close to the only evidence we have. The theory of evolution is the unifying theory of biology. Without it nothing in the natural world makes any sense, but with it we find branching lines of evidence––entire branching fields of evidence––converging unanimously on the same conclusion: evolution is a fact. It has been proven, verifiably, conclusively, a million times over, and the evidence is freely available to anyone willing to look. It is only a minority of Christians––mostly American fundamentalists––that still cling to the disproven ideas of a young earth and a special creation ten thousand years ago. Most Christians accept evolution. It’s even the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church. And when I look at the wonders of nature and the cosmos in as much as we can understand them, I find them so much bigger, so much more infinitely complex and mysterious than the simplistic, puny account found in the book of Genesis. That would remain the case for me whether God exists or not.

My search ultimately revealed Christianity to be a house of cards. Once you begin to doubt the core proposition, and allow yourself to put aside ingrained and psychologically toxic fears of hellfire and look for yourself, the cards will fall. I am an atheist because I took an honest look at the claims of Christianity, searched thoroughly and honestly for the answers, and found that Christianity either cannot or will not meet its burden of proof. It makes claims of absolute fact about reality, fails to provide a shred of evidence to substantiate them, but still requires those claims to be believed, absolutely, by faith alone––or else face the consequences. I am no longer capable of meeting that criteria.

My current position is technically called ‘agnostic-atheism,’ meaning that I lack a belief in a god, but I do not claim to know for certain whether or not one exists (and probably that information is beyond human comprehension anyway). This is the most common form of atheism across the world and is held by people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and the late Carl Sagan. All of my views on everything are subject to change or revision, but it is only reason and evidence that can prompt a change.

My atheism is a product of what I know about the evidence. I can’t unlearn the facts. I can’t ignore the facts. I’m compelled to certain positions by them. My acceptance of evolution, for example, feels no more like a choice than my belief that the sun will rise tomorrow. And when I look at religion as a whole, all of its myriad forms across the world, and I see that it’s filled to bursting with every kind of fraud and charlatan, swindler, faith healer, quack medical scam, marketing gimmick, pseudo-science, pseudo-history, emotional ploy, deceiver and deception, I can’t help but look at it like I look at everything else: with skepticism and caution.

I probably could have written a whole book and still not be finished. There are so many things I didn’t even begin to cover that I’m sure many will take issue with or want to ask about. Please do. I invite you to ask me anything and everything and not to be shy about it. But keep in mind that while I understand why believers hold the beliefs they do and how closely they hold them, in my view the strength of a belief is unrelated to its truth or falsehood. I love to learn. I want to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible during my lifetime. I am always open to argument, and I continue to question even though I have left Christianity behind me. To me the search has grown more interesting since, not less, and I would never abandon this freedom of exploration for another paradigm-box of faith.

 

[JJ Husker]

Thanks for sharing Husker_x. I can see how a person gets to where you are at and that is fine, I've just arrived at some different conclusions. The biggest one being that I just cannot reconcile that this all came about by some cosmic chance. I'm not talking Christian or any specific religion now but rather whether or not there is a higher power that caused at least some of this to happen. I absolutely believe there is a God (or whatever title a person wants to attribute to our creator). I have not been provided any satisfactory evidence that proves to me that creation and evolution can't or don't coexist. There may be certain teachings or beliefs within specific sects or religions that say it has to be one or the other but, in all cases I am aware of, those can easily be attributed the work of humans. Since I am absolutely convinced of the existence of a God, I find it fairly easy to ignore or work around many of the tougher questions of specific religions.

The other part of my belief really does not need to be satisfied with facts or proof. I simply refuse to believe that there is no purpose for our existence. I don't want to live, or die, in a world where there is not more than random cosmic chance at work. That to me would be way scarier than any of the worst concepts of hell. I realize this is just a preference of mine and has nothing to do with proving my belief but, it is a very real and strong force and it helps motivate me to find those explanations for the tough questions and issues that seem to show there is no God. I have always been able to find an answer that satisfies both my belief and any scientific evidence. It really has never even been much of a close call for me.

 

[NUance]

Thanks for sharing, Husker_X. Do you think part of your break with believing in God was due to rebelling against your fundamentalist upbringing? I don't ask you because I think *that* makes your atheist views wrong. (Although I do think your atheist views are wrong. But for other reasons. lol)

I ask about this because, if true, I agree with you that investigating and challenging is good. When I was a kid, maybe junior high age or so, I recall being turned off by ministers who trotted out their particular flavor of Christianity to be the one true flavor. I reasoned that most people are Baptists (or Catholics, Quakers, atheists, Muslims, etc.) solely because their parents held those particular beliefs. My parents and grandparents were Baptists. But I took it upon myself to investigate and experience other views. Unlike you though I became stronger in my faith. Even though I ended up adopting a church family with beliefs much different than those of my parents' Baptist church.

In any case I applaud you for taking it upon yourself to investigate and challenge the beliefs you grew up with. But I feel sorry for you inasmuch as I think you reached the wrong conclusion.

 

[True2tRA]

Here's my reasons....

Pretty hard for God to ever hold my hand.

 

[huKSer]

Here's my reasons....

Pretty hard for God to ever hold my hand.

So pre-marital sex is OK? (As long as its hands free?)

 

[huKSer]

Personally I am against all organized religion, but believe is some higher power. Sort of like the founding fathers.

All sorts of nasty things happen in the name of organized religion - Islamic jihad, Christian crusades, Rev Jimmy Jones, Westboro Baptist, Irish Catholic/Protestant civil war, Japanese Emperor worship, ad nauseum.

I don't need to follow some preacher when I have a brain of my own.

 

[NUance]

Here's my reasons....

Pretty hard for God to ever hold my hand.

I don't think I'd masturbate with that fiery hand. Looks like it'd burn a fella's wiener off. And that begs the question: Does Johnny Storm still have a wiener?

 

[True2tRA]

I'm not against anything.

If it makes you happy and it's not hurting anyone else, then have at it. Everybody deserves to be happy if they are doing the right things and being a good person. If God honored that system, the Earth would be a great place wouldn't it?

Unfortunately, it appears there is no system of who gets punished, who deserves and doesn't deserve a chance to be happy. No, even some of the best amongst us are punished. Even sometimes punished harsher than a human mind could ever concieve a human being could earn or deserve. Yet, it happens.

I see it everyday.

 

[Scratchtown]

Child like faith brother.

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

 

[ZRod]

Child like faith brother.

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

And I feel sorry for those who believe that their fate is predetermined and they can't shape their destiny.
I also wish I knew what happened to that cash I had in my pocket a few weeks back. I know I didn't spend it, but for the life if me I can't find it. I could really use it right about now...

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Child like faith brother.

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

So God stole from someone who earned that money (possibly another believer) in order to pay you back is what youre saying?

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Personally I am against all organized religion, but believe is some higher power. Sort of like the founding fathers.

All sorts of nasty things happen in the name of organized religion - Islamic jihad, Christian crusades, Rev Jimmy Jones, Westboro Baptist, Irish Catholic/Protestant civil war, Japanese Emperor worship, ad nauseum.

I don't need to follow some preacher when I have a brain of my own.

I think there is where I am at now. Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Husker_x]

Thanks for sharing, Husker_X. Do you think part of your break with believing in God was due to rebelling against your fundamentalist upbringing? I don't ask you because I think *that* makes your atheist views wrong. (Although I do think your atheist views are wrong. But for other reasons. lol)

I ask about this because, if true, I agree with you that investigating and challenging is good. When I was a kid, maybe junior high age or so, I recall being turned off by ministers who trotted out their particular flavor of Christianity to be the one true flavor. I reasoned that most people are Baptists (or Catholics, Quakers, atheists, Muslims, etc.) solely because their parents held those particular beliefs. My parents and grandparents were Baptists. But I took it upon myself to investigate and experience other views. Unlike you though I became stronger in my faith. Even though I ended up adopting a church family with beliefs much different than those of my parents' Baptist church.

In any case I applaud you for taking it upon yourself to investigate and challenge the beliefs you grew up with. But I feel sorry for you inasmuch as I think you reached the wrong conclusion.

You think I reached the wrong conclusion, but neither you nor anyone else I've met that's of a religious persuasion can say why, or provide a logical alternative. I hear a lot about feelings and "I just can't understand how X . . ." logic (which technically is a fallacy called the argument from ignorance), but that's about it. Since the burden of proof is on the believer, I need more.
I suppose having a fundamentalist aspect to my upbringing makes it easier to put cracks in the foundation, but I don't want to give you guys and gals the wrong idea: I wasn't living in the Phelps household exactly. Like I said, my change of mind was based on a lot of research and debate. I haven't met many Christians who can say the same going the other direction.

 

[TGHusker]

Thank-you X for responding to my PM. Much appreciated. I do appreciate your journey and I respect your answer. Keep searching.

Oh, forgot to answer the question as you all know - believer

 

[True2tRA]

Child like faith brother.

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

So God stole from someone who earned that money (possibly another believer) in order to pay you back is what youre saying?

That money could've been the last bit of cash in someones pocket. A good, devout Christian, who has worshipped God and honored him in every thing they do.
They were headed to the store to get whatever groceries they could afford with their last bit of money 'til their next payday.

They're walking along the road, they reach the grocery store and make a few cheap selections. They get to the checkout register and after the items are rang up this person reaches into their pocket just to find there is nothing there. They've lost their last bit of cash.

Obviously embarrassed, the person has no explanation they can only turn in shame as the cashier apologizes and asks the other clerk to return the items to the shelf. The person can hear mumbling behind her, "they have no money" they say, and the person hears a chuckle. Three other "devout Chrisitans" in line behind her, no doubt.

As the person trudges home, they begin to wonder where they went wrong. They've given God his glory all their life, they've prayed and worshipped faithfully. They just wish they could catch a break, but instead they've just gone and lost any chance of a meal tonight for themselves or their children. The person begins to pray " Please God, let me find that money, please......it's all I've got". She retraces her steps back along the road.

She finds nothing. She can only sob as a woman, clearly out for her daily run, jogs past her smiling. The jogger can see the woman is distraught, she almost looks crazy. To avoid any encounter with this "strange" individual walking down the road bawling, the jogger crosses the road to jog the other side for a bit. You just never know what kind of people you'll encounter out there........ Doesn't matter though, she's got a bit of cash in her pocket she found just aways back.

God is good.

( just spitballing a little short little story here, but you never know huh?)