Why Are You an Atheist or a Believer?
- Thread starter Husker_x
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TGHusker
Well-known member
X,- yes the universe is amazing and complex. I agree. That does not dismiss the 'God Factor". Many serious scientists, mathematicians, philosophers who also believe in God and the complexity of the universe would disagree wt your last paragraph. There are those who would argue for a designer based on the 'fine tuning of the universe' both from a macro and a micro perspective (astronomy to biology to mathematics) Anthony Flew, the great atheist philosopher of the last century changed his mind when he saw new science present the complexity of life and the universe and died believing there was a god (Diest) behind the universe. Yes let the science lead us but brushing off faith as 'not much of an answer' is closing the door on one possibility and insulting to real scientists who believe otherwise.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/arts/17flew.html?_r=0
In 2004, however, he (Flew) announced on a DVD titled “Has Science Discovered God?” that research on DNA and what he believed to be inconsistencies in the Darwinian account of evolution had forced him to reconsider his views. DNA research, he said, “has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.”
In “There Is a God” he explained that he now believed in a supreme intelligence, removed from human affairs but responsible for the intricate workings of the universe. In other words, the divine watchmaker imagined by deists like Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin.
http://www.existence-of-god.com/flew-abandons-atheism.html
For years, Antony Flew has been a figurehead for atheists. Now, though, he has abandoned his atheism and accepted the existence of God. In a recent interview for Philosophia Christi with Gary Habermas, Flew explained his new beliefs. Though Flew has not embraced Christianity, he now accepts the existence of God, saying that he “had to go where the evidence leads”......
For Flew, it is the argument from design that shows that the existence of God is probable. He has been impressed by recent scientific developments that suggest that the universe is the product of intelligent design. “It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design,” explains Flew.
Flew cites Gerald Schroeder’s work The Hidden Face of God and Roy Abraham Varghese’s The Wonder of the World: A Journey from Modern Science to the Mind of God as particularly impressive. In the foreword to the new (and final) edition of his God and Philosophy, which Flew now describes as “an historical relic”, he acknowledges that the argument from design “becomes progressively more powerful with every advance in humankind’s knowledge of the integrated complexity of what used to be called the ‘system of nature’.” As this progress continues, perhaps more will follow Flew’s lead in conceding ground to theism.
ZRod
Well-known member
So... a version of pantheism, which doesn't necessarily involve religious views or can view the Universe itself as an impersonal god. Something I am peraonally more aligned with.
knapplc
Active member
Flew's reasoning is incredibly suspect, unfortunately. He looks at something as complicated as DNA and says, "Welp, I can't figure that out. There must be a god."
Flew stated in a letter to Richard Carrier:
Flew stated in a letter to Richard Carrier:
So, it's highly challenging for Christians to use Flew as legitimizing their god. Flew did no such thing. Flew specifically said, if there is a god, it is most likely the god described by Aristotle, perhaps not even a conscious god, more a "force of nature."
sd'sker
Banned
that video is evidence of god? huh.
i see that and admire the beauty of nature and evolution. but if god gets credit for rivers coming back, i guess we can blame him for the drought in california? or whatever other catastrophe is going on in the world?
TGHusker
Well-known member
Knapp, read my post - I'm not utilizing Flew to legitimizing 'my' god. Only saying the God factor is out there to be considered.
Scratchtown
New member
No I wasn't born there out of chance. I was born in the US because God designed me to be born in the US. I do scratch my head over the people who are never introduced to Christianity. However, I take the stance of God doing whatever he pleases. His plan is perfect. I also take the stance of God choosing and pursuing us, over the opposite. Thats a whole other topic. Predestined or Free Will of choosing God.
Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. - Psalm 115:3
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden - Romans 9:18
The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths. - Psalm 135:6
God will seek anyone out. Just got to let him. However when walls of pride are built so thick and so deep its not easy to let even a little bit of Him in.
The concept of Satan. We don't live in a world that is without evil. Satan is using every tool (including some christian "churches") as a way to keep people from the truth.
Redux
Donor
I get the whole "He who has faith need not question his existence" thing. It's comforting sure, but we are talking about proof of his existence based off ancient texts written by man as a supposed word of god.
Man wrote the bible as a history lesson and we are to accept that as fact yet ignore the time frame it was written. A time when races of people were trying desperately to persuade masses into believing what they "believed". Persuasion during a time of darkness and uncertainty is a powerful motivator.
Man wrote the bible as a history lesson and we are to accept that as fact yet ignore the time frame it was written. A time when races of people were trying desperately to persuade masses into believing what they "believed". Persuasion during a time of darkness and uncertainty is a powerful motivator.
BigRedBuster
Well-known member
Serious question Redux.
You obviously believe in spirits and something within us that lives after our physical death since you believe in paranormal activity.
However, you absolutely believe there is no way there is a higher power that this spirit is tied to in some way that lives within us.
How do you reconcile those two things?
Husker_x
New member
TGHusker,
What Ehrman means, and he's very clear on this point, is that as far as preserving ancient texts go, the New Testament has a treasure trove of manuscripts, which is nice. Now where the problem comes in is not a single one of them is an autograph. They're copies of copies of copies. The really early texts are fragments, some no bigger than a business card. No two of them are identical. God's great plan apparently involved losing the 'inerrant word' to the sands of time. Why?
The gospels are realistic? In what sense? The walking on water? The dying and coming back to life? The tombs of Jerusalem breaking open and zombies roaming free? Appealing to conventions of genre to make this particular case is really, really reaching. And a ~40 year gap in time between events and written record may beat Alexander, but Alexander was a conquerer of the known world who has his face stamped on a coin. History literally falls apart for that era if he did not exist. Plus I'm unaware of anyone trying to convince the general population he rose from the dead or can save their souls.
I would also add that assuming for sake of argument we had four Gospels written a week after the final events of the New Testament, four seamless accounts that agreed on every detail of these strange events, I would still consider them insufficient evidence for the claim of resurrection (or any miracle). As Thomas Paine said, "miracles are evidence to the witness only and hearsay to everyone else."
That's what the whole NT is to us: vague, questionable hearsay.
What Ehrman means, and he's very clear on this point, is that as far as preserving ancient texts go, the New Testament has a treasure trove of manuscripts, which is nice. Now where the problem comes in is not a single one of them is an autograph. They're copies of copies of copies. The really early texts are fragments, some no bigger than a business card. No two of them are identical. God's great plan apparently involved losing the 'inerrant word' to the sands of time. Why?
The gospels are realistic? In what sense? The walking on water? The dying and coming back to life? The tombs of Jerusalem breaking open and zombies roaming free? Appealing to conventions of genre to make this particular case is really, really reaching. And a ~40 year gap in time between events and written record may beat Alexander, but Alexander was a conquerer of the known world who has his face stamped on a coin. History literally falls apart for that era if he did not exist. Plus I'm unaware of anyone trying to convince the general population he rose from the dead or can save their souls.
I would also add that assuming for sake of argument we had four Gospels written a week after the final events of the New Testament, four seamless accounts that agreed on every detail of these strange events, I would still consider them insufficient evidence for the claim of resurrection (or any miracle). As Thomas Paine said, "miracles are evidence to the witness only and hearsay to everyone else."
That's what the whole NT is to us: vague, questionable hearsay.
Scratchtown
New member
Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. - Matthew 24:9
"But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated because of my name. - Luke 21:16-17
They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. - John 15:21
People hate Jesus, people hate Christianity and for what? Not because of suicide extremists like Islam has...but because Christianity teaches that people will have to have accountability toward God, and that scares the crap out of some of you. Thats why walls have been built up in your minds to reject any potential proof of faith. I can't change your minds, but I suggest reading about biblical prophecy. If you truly want evidence just look at prophecy in the Bible. I hope that you do research biblical prophecy, because if you don't...you have become very closed off to the idea of God.
For the record, the ending of the Bible in revelation perfectly correlates with the Islamic end of times but only as polar opposites. Christianity's Anti-Christ is the exact same person as the Islamic Imam Mahdi (Sp?)
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. - Matthew 24:9
"But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated because of my name. - Luke 21:16-17
They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. - John 15:21
People hate Jesus, people hate Christianity and for what? Not because of suicide extremists like Islam has...but because Christianity teaches that people will have to have accountability toward God, and that scares the crap out of some of you. Thats why walls have been built up in your minds to reject any potential proof of faith. I can't change your minds, but I suggest reading about biblical prophecy. If you truly want evidence just look at prophecy in the Bible. I hope that you do research biblical prophecy, because if you don't...you have become very closed off to the idea of God.
For the record, the ending of the Bible in revelation perfectly correlates with the Islamic end of times but only as polar opposites. Christianity's Anti-Christ is the exact same person as the Islamic Imam Mahdi (Sp?)
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Scratchtown
New member
- The basis of Faith.
- So according to Thomas Paine we should never trust anything a person says because we weren't there. Right. That logic is wonderful.
Husker_x
New member
Go ask a Jew what they think about the so-called prophecies concerning Jesus. And I'll point it out too: quoting the Bible to make your case about the Bible is sort of begging the question.
sd'sker
Banned
Husker_x
New member
We're talking about dead people making an encore, not bringing in the mail.
Bias is the basis for faith. Knapplc has explained this in some detail already.