Nebraska's Michael Rose-Ivey receives racial backlash for anthem protest

[GBRHouston]

We are a crime-ridden country. I hate to admit it, but we are. In many other countries, cops have nearly no reason to shoot people, because there are way fewer violent crimes featuring armed criminals.

This is just untrue. No facts here you are just using a general statement to try to justify the fact that police kill civilians in america at an extremely high rate compared to most of the world.
There is violent crime everywhere and trying to say there isn't is not very valid

I never said there isn't. I am saying it is at a higher rate here, to the point where there would be more cop shootings relative to the population here than most of the world (there are more violent countries- Look at most countries South of us)

 

[Nebfanatic]

We are a crime-ridden country. I hate to admit it, but we are. In many other countries, cops have nearly no reason to shoot people, because there are way fewer violent crimes featuring armed criminals.

This is just untrue. No facts here you are just using a general statement to try to justify the fact that police kill civilians in america at an extremely high rate compared to most of the world.
There is violent crime everywhere and trying to say there isn't is not very valid

I never said there isn't. I am saying it is at a higher rate here, to the point where there would be more cop shootings relative to the population here than most of the world (there are more violent countries- Look at most countries South of us)

just did some quick research and China has similar violent crime rates as the US. Yet only 5 civilian deaths and their population is 4 times ours. Explain that one. We don't need to be killing this many people. We aren't Mexico we aren't Colombia and we never want to be like those countries so bringing them into the conversation is irrelevant. I'm not saying we should be like China either but they are doing something right in their law enforcement. Please tell me why we need to kill people to police them? Do your think a police altercation resulting in the death of a civilian is just and constitutional, allowing the civilian their right to justice? Do you really think that police killing nearly 2000 people since the start of 2015 is not a problem and you are fine with how things are being conducted right now?
Also by your logic, USA has a 66x higher violent crime rate than the UK. In reality, it is 4x higher.

I'll also pose one more question. In the 990 encounters police shot and killed a civilian in 2015, how many police officers do you think would have lost their lives if they were trained and equipped to only use non lethal force?

 

[GBRHouston]

We are a crime-ridden country. I hate to admit it, but we are. In many other countries, cops have nearly no reason to shoot people, because there are way fewer violent crimes featuring armed criminals.

This is just untrue. No facts here you are just using a general statement to try to justify the fact that police kill civilians in america at an extremely high rate compared to most of the world.
There is violent crime everywhere and trying to say there isn't is not very valid

I never said there isn't. I am saying it is at a higher rate here, to the point where there would be more cop shootings relative to the population here than most of the world (there are more violent countries- Look at most countries South of us)

just did some quick research and China has similar violent crime rates as the US. Yet only 5 civilian deaths and their population is 4 times ours. Explain that one. We don't need to be killing this many people. We aren't Mexico we aren't Colombia and we never want to be like those countries so bringing them into the conversation is irrelevant. I'm not saying we should be like China either but they are doing something right in their law enforcement. Please tell me why we need to kill people to police them? Do your think a police altercation resulting in the death of a civilian is just and constitutional, allowing the civilian their right to justice? Do you really think that police killing nearly 2000 people since the start of 2015 is not a problem and you are fine with how things are being conducted right now?

Okay, let's divulge from this for a bit, because that's not the point.

I'm not a fan of using stats for arguments like this, but everyone else is so it's only fair. People love to say "Oh, more white people are arrested per year, yet more black people get shot by cops." First of all, more white people get shot by cops.

In 2012, 6,502,919 of the people arrested were white. 2,640,067 were black. "See? More white people get arrested than black people!" If you look at the numbers without factoring in how much of the percentage of the population is white, yes there are more white people arrested per year than black people. If we're factoring Hispanics and Latinos (wouldn't see why we wouldn't count them in, they're citizens too), 63.7% of the American population is white, and 12.2% of American citizens are Black. There are more than 5x whites than blacks in our country.

In terms of crime: 69.3% of crimes in 2012 were committed by white people, 28.1% were committed by black people. "See? More white people are convicted of crimes, yet black people get the bad reputation!" Not so fast. 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people. If there are 5x more white people in the country, and 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people, relative to the population, twice as many crimes are committed by black people than white people. So maybe both sides of this protest have something to work on? Cops aren't the only ones that need a better name for themselves.

 

[Nebfanatic]

We are a crime-ridden country. I hate to admit it, but we are. In many other countries, cops have nearly no reason to shoot people, because there are way fewer violent crimes featuring armed criminals.

This is just untrue. No facts here you are just using a general statement to try to justify the fact that police kill civilians in america at an extremely high rate compared to most of the world.
There is violent crime everywhere and trying to say there isn't is not very valid

I never said there isn't. I am saying it is at a higher rate here, to the point where there would be more cop shootings relative to the population here than most of the world (there are more violent countries- Look at most countries South of us)

just did some quick research and China has similar violent crime rates as the US. Yet only 5 civilian deaths and their population is 4 times ours. Explain that one. We don't need to be killing this many people. We aren't Mexico we aren't Colombia and we never want to be like those countries so bringing them into the conversation is irrelevant. I'm not saying we should be like China either but they are doing something right in their law enforcement. Please tell me why we need to kill people to police them? Do your think a police altercation resulting in the death of a civilian is just and constitutional, allowing the civilian their right to justice? Do you really think that police killing nearly 2000 people since the start of 2015 is not a problem and you are fine with how things are being conducted right now?

Okay, let's divulge from this for a bit, because that's not the point.
I'm not a fan of using stats for arguments like this, but everyone else is so it's only fair. People love to say "Oh, more white people are arrested per year, yet more black people get shot by cops." First of all, more white people get shot by cops.

In 2012, 6,502,919 of the people arrested were white. 2,640,067 were black. "See? More white people get arrested than black people!" If you look at the numbers without factoring in how much of the percentage of the population is white, yes there are more white people arrested per year than black people. If we're factoring Hispanics and Latinos (wouldn't see why we wouldn't count them in, they're citizens too), 63.7% of the American population is white, and 12.2% of American citizens are Black. There are more than 5x whites than blacks in our country.

In terms of crime: 69.3% of crimes in 2012 were committed by white people, 28.1% were committed by black people. "See? More white people are convicted of crimes, yet black people get the bad reputation!" Not so fast. 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people. If there are 5x more white people in the country, and 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people, relative to the population, twice as many crimes are committed by black people than white people. So maybe both sides of this protest have something to work on? Cops aren't the only ones that need a better name for themselves.

I am not arguing about this because it is my belief a) African americans are discriminated against in our justice system and b) the oppression we have put African Americans through for hundreds of years has alot to do with African Americans committing more crime.
You said law enforcement reform wasn't needed and you got taken to town about it in a completely non racial argument so you changed the subject. Fun

 

[GBRHouston]

We are a crime-ridden country. I hate to admit it, but we are. In many other countries, cops have nearly no reason to shoot people, because there are way fewer violent crimes featuring armed criminals.

This is just untrue. No facts here you are just using a general statement to try to justify the fact that police kill civilians in america at an extremely high rate compared to most of the world.
There is violent crime everywhere and trying to say there isn't is not very valid

I never said there isn't. I am saying it is at a higher rate here, to the point where there would be more cop shootings relative to the population here than most of the world (there are more violent countries- Look at most countries South of us)

just did some quick research and China has similar violent crime rates as the US. Yet only 5 civilian deaths and their population is 4 times ours. Explain that one. We don't need to be killing this many people. We aren't Mexico we aren't Colombia and we never want to be like those countries so bringing them into the conversation is irrelevant. I'm not saying we should be like China either but they are doing something right in their law enforcement. Please tell me why we need to kill people to police them? Do your think a police altercation resulting in the death of a civilian is just and constitutional, allowing the civilian their right to justice? Do you really think that police killing nearly 2000 people since the start of 2015 is not a problem and you are fine with how things are being conducted right now?

Okay, let's divulge from this for a bit, because that's not the point.
I'm not a fan of using stats for arguments like this, but everyone else is so it's only fair. People love to say "Oh, more white people are arrested per year, yet more black people get shot by cops." First of all, more white people get shot by cops.

In 2012, 6,502,919 of the people arrested were white. 2,640,067 were black. "See? More white people get arrested than black people!" If you look at the numbers without factoring in how much of the percentage of the population is white, yes there are more white people arrested per year than black people. If we're factoring Hispanics and Latinos (wouldn't see why we wouldn't count them in, they're citizens too), 63.7% of the American population is white, and 12.2% of American citizens are Black. There are more than 5x whites than blacks in our country.

In terms of crime: 69.3% of crimes in 2012 were committed by white people, 28.1% were committed by black people. "See? More white people are convicted of crimes, yet black people get the bad reputation!" Not so fast. 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people. If there are 5x more white people in the country, and 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people, relative to the population, twice as many crimes are committed by black people than white people. So maybe both sides of this protest have something to work on? Cops aren't the only ones that need a better name for themselves.

I am not arguing about this because it is my belief a) African americans are discriminated against in our justice system and b) the oppression we have put African Americans through for hundreds of years have alot to do with African Americans committing more crime.
You said police reform wasn't needed and you got taken to town about it in a completely non racial argument so you changed the subject. Fun

No. It is not needed. I still hold firm to that. If the police community needs reform, so does the African American community. This thread is about the protests that were said to have been spawned by police brutality. Not over the time that they were oppressed >=50 years ago. Good day.

 

[Nebfanatic]

We are a crime-ridden country. I hate to admit it, but we are. In many other countries, cops have nearly no reason to shoot people, because there are way fewer violent crimes featuring armed criminals.

This is just untrue. No facts here you are just using a general statement to try to justify the fact that police kill civilians in america at an extremely high rate compared to most of the world.
There is violent crime everywhere and trying to say there isn't is not very valid

I never said there isn't. I am saying it is at a higher rate here, to the point where there would be more cop shootings relative to the population here than most of the world (there are more violent countries- Look at most countries South of us)

just did some quick research and China has similar violent crime rates as the US. Yet only 5 civilian deaths and their population is 4 times ours. Explain that one. We don't need to be killing this many people. We aren't Mexico we aren't Colombia and we never want to be like those countries so bringing them into the conversation is irrelevant. I'm not saying we should be like China either but they are doing something right in their law enforcement. Please tell me why we need to kill people to police them? Do your think a police altercation resulting in the death of a civilian is just and constitutional, allowing the civilian their right to justice? Do you really think that police killing nearly 2000 people since the start of 2015 is not a problem and you are fine with how things are being conducted right now?

Okay, let's divulge from this for a bit, because that's not the point.
I'm not a fan of using stats for arguments like this, but everyone else is so it's only fair. People love to say "Oh, more white people are arrested per year, yet more black people get shot by cops." First of all, more white people get shot by cops.

In 2012, 6,502,919 of the people arrested were white. 2,640,067 were black. "See? More white people get arrested than black people!" If you look at the numbers without factoring in how much of the percentage of the population is white, yes there are more white people arrested per year than black people. If we're factoring Hispanics and Latinos (wouldn't see why we wouldn't count them in, they're citizens too), 63.7% of the American population is white, and 12.2% of American citizens are Black. There are more than 5x whites than blacks in our country.

In terms of crime: 69.3% of crimes in 2012 were committed by white people, 28.1% were committed by black people. "See? More white people are convicted of crimes, yet black people get the bad reputation!" Not so fast. 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people. If there are 5x more white people in the country, and 2.5x more crimes were committed by white people than black people, relative to the population, twice as many crimes are committed by black people than white people. So maybe both sides of this protest have something to work on? Cops aren't the only ones that need a better name for themselves.

I am not arguing about this because it is my belief a) African americans are discriminated against in our justice system and b) the oppression we have put African Americans through for hundreds of years have alot to do with African Americans committing more crime.
You said police reform wasn't needed and you got taken to town about it in a completely non racial argument so you changed the subject. Fun

No. It is not needed. I still hold firm to that. If the police community needs reform, so does the African American community. Good day.

and I never said that the African American community didn't need to improve but you are avoiding the fact that police kill too many civilians.
Law enforcement is an institution. Changes made can have an immediate impact throughout the system.

The African American community is just that, a community. There is no one controlling them that can change some guidelines and fix the problem. It will take alot of time and effort to make a difference here. Police reform wouldn't take nearly the effort or the time and it would make it easier for the African American community to fix their problems not feeling so threatened.

You added to your post so I would like to respond by saying the oppression they faced 50 years ago and beyond still has an impact today! Housing, mass incarceration, Crack cocaine are still problems for African Americans that were created by white people. Not to mention the mindset we have engrained into African Americans through centuries of oppression. That doesn't go away over night or even in 50 years and alot of these things come to a head in the form of crime.

 

[GBRHouston]

Police kill too many civilians.

I have not responded to that because that is your personal opinion and there is no way I can make you change it.

 

[Nebfanatic]

Police kill too many civilians.

I have not responded to that because that is your personal opinion and there is no way I can make you change it.

No regard for human life. You act as if the way our police force operates is a perfect system and nearly all of these deaths are unavoidable. I say the system is flawed and we can find and employ a system that doesn't result in anyone losing their life. That should be the goal but instead yout choose to hold on to the misguided opinion that our law enforcement can't be improved upon.

 

[Jim Hammer]

thing is if dozens of other countries can keep civilian deaths by police at relatively low numbers, so can we. I'm sorry but there should be no justification for police killing 1000 people in a year, when other countries are sitting at 2 or 3. That is a significant gap and it needs to be reduced. Put people in jail, let them go through the justice system as it is designed. Sure I haven't been in these situations, but tens of thousands of other officers around the world go through alot of these scenarios and find ways to come out of them with everyone alive. This is not too much to ask for plain and simple.

The reason for this huge disparity is the gun culture we have in the US. Cops facing criminals armed with guns don't have the luxury those in other countries that don't have nearly as many guns.

But those other countries do a much better job of training their officers and have instituted policies that reduce the lethality of criminal interactions:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/what-norway-is-getting-right-about-policing-that-american-cops-just-cant-figure-out/208413/

That is something we should emulate.

 

[Nebfanatic]

thing is if dozens of other countries can keep civilian deaths by police at relatively low numbers, so can we. I'm sorry but there should be no justification for police killing 1000 people in a year, when other countries are sitting at 2 or 3. That is a significant gap and it needs to be reduced. Put people in jail, let them go through the justice system as it is designed. Sure I haven't been in these situations, but tens of thousands of other officers around the world go through alot of these scenarios and find ways to come out of them with everyone alive. This is not too much to ask for plain and simple.

The reason for this huge disparity is the gun culture we have in the US. Cops facing criminals armed with guns don't have the luxury those in other countries that don't have nearly as many guns.
But those other countries do a much better job of training their officers and have instituted policies that reduce the lethality of criminal interactions:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/what-norway-is-getting-right-about-policing-that-american-cops-just-cant-figure-out/208413/

That is something we should emulate.

the numbers are still disproportionate. 4x higher violent crime rate than the UK but civilians are killed 66x more than in the UK. I understand gun culture is different here but that does not fully explain the huge disparity. If we had 10x more police shootings than the UK I could understand that but 66x? That's insane. Gotta have better training and policies like your suggested. Again, I am not saying police shouldn't shoot anybody. That would be ideal but I understand it doesn't work that way. But there has to be steps we can take to reduce this number and we should take these steps. We have little to lose and alot to gain. While if we continue this trend we have alot to lose. There is a reason the UN slammed us about police brutality.

 

[Jim Hammer]

No. It is not needed. I still hold firm to that. If the police community needs reform, so does the African American community. This thread is about the protests that were said to have been spawned by police brutality. Not over the time that they were oppressed >=50 years ago.

It's hard to have a discussion with ignorant people who refuse to learn and ignore piles of evidence presented to them. We can only hope that they are the minority and the rest of us can move forward.

 

[Jim Hammer]

We will never agree.

Big surprise.

 

[Mierin]

Someone who thinks "Blacks were oppressed >= 50 years ago" and it's in the past isn't worth talking to on this matter.

 

[Nebfanatic]

Someone who thinks "Blacks were oppressed >= 50 years ago" and it's in the past isn't worth talking to on this matter.

I had something a little more pointed in response to that quote but I refrained and attempted the educational route

 

[knapplc]

Someone should start a football topic in P&R. See how long it stays there.