Tangent Thread - P&R Edition

JJ Husker said:
Maybe I should have said Christ instead of Christmas.  And I was not referring to Christmas "junk" or Christmas "songs" or the ridiculously long selling season. What I said was many stores/companies/retailers have foregone calling it Christmas or saying or displaying the term Merry Christmas. Are you denying that has actually happened and that it hasn't been noticeable over the past 5-10 years?

Don't get me wrong, I could give a sh#t what retailers are doing. The whole thing has been overblown and perverted for far too long. What I am saying is there has been a shift in the way many stores approach and promote the season. Frankly, I'm glad they are less and less using Christmas by name to promote their overblown merchandising efforts. But don't sit there and tell me it hasn't changed. It has.

My question was an honest one. I want to know what others think is behind their changed marketing efforts. I don't think there is some anti-Christian conspiracy afoot but I also don't quite understand what has prompted the shift away from Merry Christmas. I have a theory but I would like to hear some other thoughts on it before sharing. Simply saying nothing has changed doesn't address the reality that, yes it has.
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I'm denying that "Christmas is being removed from the season." Saying Happy Holidays does not require Christmas to be removed. Christmas is included/implied by "happy holidays," which is a phrase people have been using for decades and decades. Then one day Bill O'Reilly decided to make a big stink out of nothing whatsoever (a couple retailers using the phrase - why does it matter?) and other people decided to follow suit and decide that Christmas was being attacked or "removed."

It's completely a$$ backwards for a bunch of people from one group to feel persecuted because a phrase includes all holidays instead of just their specific one.

 
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Moiraine said:
I'm denying that "Christmas is being removed from the season." Saying Happy Holidays does not require Christmas to be removed. Christmas is included/implied by "happy holidays," which is a phrase people have been using for decades and decades. Then one day Bill O'Reilly decided to make a big stink out of nothing whatsoever (a couple retailers using the phrase - why does it matter?) and other people decided to follow suit and decide that Christmas was being attacked or "removed."

It's completely a$$ backwards for a bunch of people from one group to feel persecuted because a phrase includes all holidays instead of just their specific one.
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I’m not going to argue the merits or lack thereof of the situation. I simply noted the observation that it has changed and that Merry Christmas is being used less now than it used to be. That is factually correct and, since I probably can’t prove it is factual,it is definitely something I have noticed anecdotally. Saying that Happy Holidays is all encompassing doesn’t change that Merry Christmas is being used less by some retailers. I simply want to know what people think their impetus was or is for the obvious shift. I don’t feel persecuted or under attack and I don’t think others should feel that way either.

So am I to understand that you believe it is simply a perception thing instigated by Bill O’Reilly and that nothing has in fact changed? BTW, I think that would be a fair and somewhat accurate take.....other than it ignores that Merry Christmas (verbatim) is being used less.

 
JJ Husker said:
I think "attack" is a fairly strong word in this issue but, what is it that has changed in the last few years? There is no denying that many stores/companies have adopted a new approach of not mentioning Christmas, not saying or printing materials that express "Merry Christmas" and rather the new norm for them is Happy Holidays. Have these stores/companies just all at once come to the conclusion they were not being inclusive enough? Why is it now necessary for them to promote Happy Holidays over Merry Christmas? Has the demographics in this country largely shifted in favor of Jews, Kwanzaa celebrators, and/or the secular crowd? Was Merry Christmas really off putting to non-Christians?

Like I said, "attack" is too strong of a word and inaccurate IMO but there is and has been a definite movement to remove Christmas from the season. So please explain to me just what is causing this.
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It’s the PC world we now live in.  Corporations would rather say “happy holidays” and completely avoid the possible social media/news/bad PR s#!tstorm that ensues bc you have one non-Christian that’s offended that you didn’t say happy hannakuh or some crap like that instead.  

 
JJ Husker said:
So am I to understand that you believe it is simply a perception thing instigated by Bill O’Reilly and that nothing has in fact changed?
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I'm not sure whether it's changed or not. People have been saying "happy holidays" as long as I remember, so since the 80's. I think channels and other media like Fox News like to invent things for their viewer-type to be angry about. Then they go out of the way to find every example they can find of that thing. It's easy to find examples nationally and then make people think they're happening everywhere. That's why loads of people think there is more violence now than ever, when in fact it's been decreasing for almost 3 decades. Because it's always on national news, it must be happening all the time.

Regardless of whether it is true or not, if we assume Merry Christmas is being used less, it's not an attack on Christmas or Christianity, and it's not a removal of Christmas as you're claiming.

 
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RedSavage said:
It’s the PC world we now live in.  Corporations would rather say “happy holidays” and completely avoid the possible social media/news/bad PR s#!tstorm that ensues bc you have one non-Christian that’s offended that you didn’t say happy hannakuh or some crap like that instead.  
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I don't remember there ever being an uproar over companies or people saying Merry Christmas, which is specific to one religion, by non-Christians. There is, however, an uproar by plenty of Christians about including everyone who celebrates holidays in late November/December by saying "Happy Holidays." One small minority, non-Christians, didn't seem to put up a fuss by hearing about Christmas constantly. The other group is upset that everyone won't be hearing the name of their holiday constantly, even though all things related to their holiday are everywhere all the time leading up to that holiday.

 
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I personally have not noticed any noticeable shift or trend towards 'Happy Holidays' instead of Merry Christmas in my lifetime. I'd love to see any stats on it; I have always remembered both being common. Even companies who intentionally refrain from saying Merry Christmas (of which I don't actually know any??) are more than likely still selling s#!t with Santa and angels and religious ornaments and so on, still playing explicitly Christmas songs, and still staffed by workers who will say Merry Christmas if you do.

Again, I can't think of any specific examples of this phenomenon actually taking place. The only one I can remember is people got pissed at Starbucks because their seasonal cups were just plain red and didn't say Merry CHristmas. But, I was just at Starbucks for 6 hours on Christmas Eve and not only did they close early because of the holiday (which they don't do for Kwanza/Hannukah/etc.), they were playing Christmas music all day. So, I'm not sure it's entirely a fact that that is happening at all. As far as why a supposed shift would be taking place? 

JJ Husker said:
I simply want to know what people think their impetus was or is for the obvious shift.
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It's a better business practice to make more money and also our culture has become more cognizant of the ways that our habits can exclude people who aren't in the majority.

 
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knapplc said:
How does one actually measure this?
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I would guess it would be impossible to measure. All I can go on is what I've noticed and it seems some larger retailers are avoiding the term when in the past they did not. Target is my noticeable example. Maybe it's just because I go there more than some other places  :dunno

Moiraine said:
I'm not sure whether it's changed or not. People have been saying "happy holidays" as long as I remember, so since the 80's. I think channels and other media like Fox News like to invent things for their viewer-type to be angry about. Then they go out of the way to find every example they can find of that thing. It's easy to find examples nationally and then make people think they're happening everywhere. That's why loads of people think there is more violence now than ever, when in fact it's been decreasing for almost 3 decades. Because it's always on national news, it must be happening all the time.

Regardless of whether it is true or not, if we assume Merry Christmas is being used less, it's not an attack on Christmas or Christianity, and it's not a removal of Christmas as you're claiming.
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As I originally stated, I don't think it is an attack on Christmas or Christianity, as some claim it is. I simply have noticed the term Merry Christmas being used less and, where it has dwindled, the obvious replacement is Happy Holidays. I'm not claiming any of it means anything but that's what I've seen happen. Maybe it's just a local freak phenomenon?

 
Well here's my theory and Moiraine and Red Savage have already touched on it. I think it is a perception thing that has grown legs. I think some on the right have made a mountain out of a molehill and caused some of their followers to believe that some illicit movement is afoot. But I also think that some in the interest of being PC and more inclusive have determined that Merry Christmas is some sort of afront to non-Christians and so they have shifted what their message is.  And I think much of the issues revolves around and mimics what is happening with our politics. Since many evangelicals and Christian folk are or are perceived to be Trump supporters then it is just icing on the cake to give them what it is they seem to be worried about. Basically it's a self fulfilling prophecy, all while still not being as real as it's purported to be. I'm just not sure if the chicken or the egg was first....or of there's really any chicken at all. I do think there are some that will perceive the slightest thing as an attack on Christianity while others will in fact go out of their way to make Christians uncomfortable because of who and what they have been supporting. 

 
I think there's a trend away from Christianity in America right now and that's reflected in how we are marketed at. Like others have said, retailers are looking to make the most bucks possible, so if there's a growing population of the irreligious, it stands to reason that places like Target will modify their marketing schemes to gain the widest possible audience. 

It doesn't mean anything to a Believer's life if retailers do or don't use the word Christmas in their ads. Christmas still means to them what it's always meant, and like JJ said, in some ways it's got to be better for Christians not to have their holy day coopted for crass marketing purposes. Plus there's no end of places, including Target, where a person can get holiday decorations that say Merry Christmas.

 
I started a P&R thread on this topic two years ago. Based on those who voted, Merry Christmas won over Happy Holidays in terms of which phrase people use more. However, the vast majority of voters said it didn't matter which one people used.

Anecdotally, it doesn't appear habits have changed as much in the circles I frequent. It's possible I'm hearing Happy Holidays more in the public arena like when I'm shopping but I can't say for certain. It feels like it, but it could also be confirmation bias.

Personally, I've made a concerted effort to tell people Happy Holidays over the last 10-12 years. It started when I was working retail part time in my teens/college years. It was just easier/safer. I tell practicing Christians Merry Christmas. I've never taken offense to being told Happy Holidays or put much thought into it at all.

 
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knapplc said:
I think there's a trend away from Christianity in America right now and that's reflected in how we are marketed at. Like others have said, retailers are looking to make the most bucks possible, so if there's a growing population of the irreligious, it stands to reason that places like Target will modify their marketing schemes to gain the widest possible audience. 

It doesn't mean anything to a Believer's life if retailers do or don't use the word Christmas in their ads. Christmas still means to them what it's always meant, and like JJ said, in some ways it's got to be better for Christians not to have their holy day coopted for crass marketing purposes. Plus there's no end of places, including Target, where a person can get holiday decorations that say Merry Christmas.
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Well said.

And like Enhance said, it's hard to tell if what I've noticed is some latent confirmation bias or if it really has changed as much as it seems. But I am glad he admitted to making a concerted effort to saying HH instead of MC. Not that I care what people say but I assume others have done the same so it helps validate what I think has occurred. There isn't much difference for the individual between what is really happening and what they think is happening. To mix metaphors, perception is 9/10ths of the law.

 
Even someone like Target who might be intentional about their branding on some things, still has things like an entire Christmas section on their website, and ugly Christmas sweaters with Christmas related references. Christmas is still everywhere, and it always will be. Because it's not really a Christian holiday - it's a capitalism one.

The real attack on Christmas is the attack undergone by commoditizing Christians turning it into a crass profit generator in their attempts to stay on top of the socioreligious ladder.

https://www.target.com/c/christmas/-/N-5xt30

https://www.target.com/c/ugly-sweaters/-/N-h4ujy?Nao=24

 
Landlord said:
Christmas is still everywhere, and it always will be. Because it's not really a Christian holiday - it's a capitalism one.

The real attack on Christmas is the attack undergone by commoditizing Christians turning it into a crass profit generator in their attempts to stay on top of the socioreligious ladder.
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This post nails it. Christmas is under attack by Christians themselves (and others that celebrate the holiday) not by those who don't celebrate Christmas.

If Christians really wanted Christmas to be their holiday again, they'd stop giving presents to their own friends and family and instead give them to the needy. Or stop giving gifts all together as that has the most tenuous link to the Christ birth story.

Plus most religious scholars think Christ was born around June, but the early church moved the holiday to takeover the already existing holidays during the winter, which makes the "attack on Christmas" rhetoric hilarious hypocrisy.

 
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