Is Faith Moral?

muzicman0 said:
Husker_x said:
I know this pastor who went someplace and you could tell that he wanted to do something else for his faith. One day he was sitting in a campground and an eagle landed on a branch and he was filled with the sense that he was supposed to start a ministry in this new place. What I can't help but wonder, though, is first how this is any different from the omen-reading of the Roman legions or druidism, and second how one could ever know that it was God's will that this decision was made. I've also know pastors who thought God wanted them to have a ministry elsewhere the failed.
Despite the sideshow of knapplc's cynicism, I am very serious when I say that I wonder what religious people do to handle these seemingly contradictory situations. How can you ever know that God is communicating with you if you recognize that you could be getting the wrong signals?
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your definition of contradiction is not the same as mine (here we go again!)...to me a contradiction is if a=b, and b=c, then a contradiction would be 'a does not equal c'.

I don't see a contradiction in any of the examples you give. How do YOU know that God wasn't asking your pastor friend to start a ministry there? What is YOUR definition of a failed ministry? Again, this conversation goes back to the beginning. Faith. Experience. and the bible (again, the Christian one).

How can you ever know that God is communicating with you if you recognize that you could be getting the wrong signals?
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Like I said in the beginning. Experience. How is misinterpreting God any different than misinterpreting anyone? I can tell you that when I first got married, I misinterpreted many things. But, as time went on, I got better at knowing what she was saying (for example...just because she says that 'we need milk' doesn't mean that offering to drop her off at the grocery store is what she wants to hear!).

I do believe that faith is important...but like almost anything in life that is an action, the more you do it, the better you get at it.
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Damn semantics. Words are always getting in the way. To the bolded part: I don't, any more than I can positively say that it was actually Satan deceiving him. But I'm not making a positive claim and am only asking you how you know or think you know your God communicates with you. What I'm getting, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is that this communication your talking about is either an emotion or strong intention to do something. But it may or may not be God. But of course you realize that as much is said by many religious faiths all over the world, which brings me back to a question in my original post, how do you know you have the right god and aren't either wrong or being deceived by something?

Also, what do you mean when you say that you get 'better' at communicating with God? The way I'm understanding you so far is that whatever happens, whether a ministry succeeds or goes bust, is the will of God, so by that logic any event whatever is the will of God and there's no getting better or worse at reading the signals at all. Or am I missing something?

I don't ask these questions out of spite; I am very sincere when I say that this stuff confused me forever when I was in church. The platitudes never seemed to burn down to an actual result. I wonder if it's the same for everyone.

 
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Oh, and this is for knapplc or anyone. Do you believe that Christians have the power of spiritual gifts today? That is, do you believe that amputees can be healed by certain Christians or that they can predict the future with accuracy?

 
knapplc said:
Husker_x said:
Dammit Knap, you're heading the right way for an inquisition, because if there's one place you can learn about persecution, Christianity is it. :)
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So now we've devolved into slurs against my faith. Great. :thumbs
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smallestviolinwz4.jpg


Edit: And it's playing for you, buddy!

 
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See, I'm trying to have a rational, real conversation with you about your motives, and you've:

1) accused me of whining

2) refused to answer legitimate questions posed to you

3) reacted sarcastically

4) mocked my faith

You're batting 1.000 so far. Now, would you like to have a real conversation about your motives here, or would you like to continue to dodge and deflect? If the former, let's go, because I have some questions for you. If the latter... well, you're pretty much ceding the field, aren't you?

 
The way I'm understanding you so far is that whatever happens, whether a ministry succeeds or goes bust, is the will of God...
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not sure where you got that from...

so by that logic any event whatever is the will of God and there's no getting better or worse at reading the signals at all. Or am I missing something?
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Yes...you are. Man is an imperfect being serving a perfect God. God created man with a will. We are not mindless beings just going from point to point in Gods plan. I don't want to get too deep theologically here, but the bottom line is that man is more than capable at acting outside of Gods will. happens everyday. I also never said that any of the above examples were Gods will. I simply stated that you saw them as a contradiction, and they are not.

P.S. I know this was to Knapplc...but I do believe in the gifts of the spirit.

 
Husker_x said:
which brings me back to a question in my original post, how do you know you have the right god and aren't either wrong or being deceived by something?
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I'm glad you finally came out with this, by the way, because it was obvious from your first post that you were, once again, questioning someone's religion. You just hadn't found your target yet.

So, since we're going here, I ask you: Would you ask this same kind of question of a homosexual man? As in, "How do you know you're gay, and not really straight, but you're deceiving yourself?"

 
knapplc said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational, real conversation with you about your motives, and you've:

1) accused me of whining

2) refused to answer legitimate questions posed to you

3) reacted sarcastically

4) mocked my faith

You're batting 1.000 so far. Now, would you like to have a real conversation about your motives here, or would you like to continue to dodge and deflect? If the former, let's go, because I have some questions for you. If the latter... well, you're pretty much ceding the field, aren't you?
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You have whined. I don't know what questions your'e referring to. Sarcasm is the only legitimate response aside from coddling to someone who claims a message board post is persecution. And the Christian church did engage in the inquisition.

That aside, the topic of the thread wasn't 'Husker_x's motives for asking whether or not faith is moral.' But since you ask, here are my motives.

1. It's provocative and gets people to read the thread.

2. There are legitimate questions about the nature of faith and the experience of faith that I would like to hear religious people's opinions on.

3. I like to learn about what other people have to say on things. But I also like to question those responses.

4. Maybe there's an off chance that I'll have some catharsis along the way and have a sudden insight into the nature of the universe and whatever's outside it by reading and debating the opinions of others.

I understand that your faith is a tender area for you. Not a problem. But if you want to have a discussion you're going to have to subject it to the same critical environment as any other topic. I'm not going to hold your hand and tell you it's going to be all right. I respect your right to your opinions and I respect the fact that they aren't mine. But go ahead, give me what you got. I'm not here to mock you but the more posts that go by without a substantive issue in it, the harder it is.

Edit: Again, knap, hadn't found my target yet? It was in the original post.

 
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knapplc said:
Husker_x said:
which brings me back to a question in my original post, how do you know you have the right god and aren't either wrong or being deceived by something?
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I'm glad you finally came out with this, by the way, because it was obvious from your first post that you were, once again, questioning someone's religion. You just hadn't found your target yet.

So, since we're going here, I ask you: Would you ask this same kind of question of a homosexual man? As in, "How do you know you're gay, and not really straight, but you're deceiving yourself?"
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I suppose I would ask if I were interested and if the other person wanted to talk about it. Why not? Nothing to fear from honest conversation. Step into the light, brother. We're all friends here.

 
Husker_x said:
knapplc said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational, real conversation with you about your motives, and you've:

1) accused me of whining

2) refused to answer legitimate questions posed to you

3) reacted sarcastically

4) mocked my faith

You're batting 1.000 so far. Now, would you like to have a real conversation about your motives here, or would you like to continue to dodge and deflect? If the former, let's go, because I have some questions for you. If the latter... well, you're pretty much ceding the field, aren't you?
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You have whined. I don't know what questions your'e referring to. Sarcasm is the only legitimate response aside from coddling to someone who claims a message board post is persecution. And the Christian church did engage in the inquisition.

That aside, the topic of the thread wasn't 'Husker_x's motives for asking whether or not faith is moral.' But since you ask, here are my motives.

1. It's provocative and gets people to read the thread.

2. There are legitimate questions about the nature of faith and the experience of faith that I would like to hear religious people's opinions on.

3. I like to learn about what other people have to say on things. But I also like to question those responses.

4. Maybe there's an off chance that I'll have some catharsis along the way and have a sudden insight into the nature of the universe and whatever's outside it by reading and debating the opinions of others.

I understand that your faith is a tender area for you. Not a problem. But if you want to have a discussion you're going to have to subject it to the same critical environment as any other topic. I'm not going to hold your hand and tell you it's going to be all right. I respect your right to your opinions and I respect the fact that they aren't mine. But go ahead, give me what you got. I'm not here to mock you but the more posts that go by without a substantive issue in it, the harder it is.

Edit: Again, knap, hadn't found my target yet? It was in the original post.
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My faith is not a tender area for me, that's your projection. I am not whining any more than you are. I am asking you legitimate, sincere questions, which you are continuing to dodge.

I'll ask again: Would you ask a gay man the same kinds of questions you're asking Christians in this and other threads?

EDIT - since you say you would, when did you, and how did that conversation go?

 
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knapplc said:
Husker_x said:
knapplc said:
See, I'm trying to have a rational, real conversation with you about your motives, and you've:

1) accused me of whining

2) refused to answer legitimate questions posed to you

3) reacted sarcastically

4) mocked my faith

You're batting 1.000 so far. Now, would you like to have a real conversation about your motives here, or would you like to continue to dodge and deflect? If the former, let's go, because I have some questions for you. If the latter... well, you're pretty much ceding the field, aren't you?
Click to expand...
You have whined. I don't know what questions your'e referring to. Sarcasm is the only legitimate response aside from coddling to someone who claims a message board post is persecution. And the Christian church did engage in the inquisition.

That aside, the topic of the thread wasn't 'Husker_x's motives for asking whether or not faith is moral.' But since you ask, here are my motives.

1. It's provocative and gets people to read the thread.

2. There are legitimate questions about the nature of faith and the experience of faith that I would like to hear religious people's opinions on.

3. I like to learn about what other people have to say on things. But I also like to question those responses.

4. Maybe there's an off chance that I'll have some catharsis along the way and have a sudden insight into the nature of the universe and whatever's outside it by reading and debating the opinions of others.

I understand that your faith is a tender area for you. Not a problem. But if you want to have a discussion you're going to have to subject it to the same critical environment as any other topic. I'm not going to hold your hand and tell you it's going to be all right. I respect your right to your opinions and I respect the fact that they aren't mine. But go ahead, give me what you got. I'm not here to mock you but the more posts that go by without a substantive issue in it, the harder it is.

Edit: Again, knap, hadn't found my target yet? It was in the original post.
Click to expand...
My faith is not a tender area for me, that's your projection. I am not whining any more than you are. I am asking you legitimate, sincere questions, which you are continuing to dodge.

I'll ask again: Would you ask a gay man the same kinds of questions you're asking Christians in this and other threads?
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I'll repeat again: Yes I would, depending on the scenario, of course. As it is, why people are gay isn't very interesting to me.

 
It hasn't happened. Though I have taken psychology courses where the genetics versus environment debate on this issue (in the presence of gay men in the room) was pretty interesting.

 
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