Slot Receiver

[knapplc]

I'll let you guys discuss the downfalls of Tommie Frazier.

Try to make a simple statement...

It's funny how this conversation turned. The reality is we're saying that, despite the fact that Tommie was never a passing threat, he was successful at the college level. The initial allegation was that to be successful a player had to be able to both run and pass in college football, and that's simply not accurate. I've provided examples from Husker History 101 like Turner Gill, Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Scott Frost, Eric Crouch and Jammal Lord, but those examples haven't swayed opinion.

This is from a broader conversation in which TMart has been thrown under the bus because he can't pass. Which is inaccurate, but that's the allegation.

I think that should about catch you up.

 

[suh_fan93]

I'll let you guys discuss the downfalls of Tommie Frazier.

Try to make a simple statement...

It's funny how this conversation turned. The reality is we're saying that, despite the fact that Tommie was never a passing threat, he was successful at the college level. The initial allegation was that to be successful a player had to be able to both run and pass in college football, and that's simply not accurate. I've provided examples from Husker History 101 like Turner Gill, Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Scott Frost, Eric Crouch and Jammal Lord, but those examples haven't swayed opinion.

This is from a broader conversation in which TMart has been thrown under the bus because he can't pass. Which is inaccurate, but that's the allegation.

I think that should about catch you up.

TMart showed flashes of being able to pass this year knapple but having said that I wouldn't dare to call him a passing QB at all. Not even close. Then again maybe you're not trying to call him that.

Also it depends on what kind of offense you're running to me anyway as far as whether or not your a QB who needs to pass. Right now plain and simple we need a quarterback who can pass the ball when needed to but it's not all Martinez's fault either. As I posted in another thread he's got an offensive coordinator who is leaving him, his offensive line and everyone out to the wolves.

While I'm not sold on TMart being a decent passer I'll give him credit for being put in a horrible, horrible position by a really bad and non innovative offensive coordinator.

I still stand by Frazier being an adequate passer also. While he did in fact have a career completion % of 50 he was hardly ever called upon to pass either. He ended his career with 43 touchdowns, 11 interceptions and 3,521 passing yards.

Thanks for catching me up...

 

[knapplc]

Right, we're on the same page. TMart is NOT a passing QB, and never will be. But he doesn't need to be, if the guys around him are doing their jobs. That's been my position all along. He's one part of the puzzle of this offense. The O Line, the WRs, the TEs, the RBs - they're all parts, too. Doesn't matter how good a QB is, or what he's good at, if the rest of the guys aren't doing their jobs.

And that goes for benching TMart in favor of Cody, Lee (last year), Carnes, Turner or Jesus Starling Superstar.

 

[Hunter94]

let's do some more catching up here.......NU was the only team that recruited him as a qb prospect....for gawd's sakes folks, the kid played in California, don't you think there was a reason he was never recruited as a qb by any California college? :facepalm:

 

[suh_fan93]

Right, we're on the same page. TMart is NOT a passing QB, and never will be. But he doesn't need to be, if the guys around him are doing their jobs. That's been my position all along. He's one part of the puzzle of this offense. The O Line, the WRs, the TEs, the RBs - they're all parts, too. Doesn't matter how good a QB is, or what he's good at, if the rest of the guys aren't doing their jobs.

And that goes for benching TMart in favor of Cody, Lee (last year), Carnes, Turner or Jesus Starling Superstar.

lol.

That's a great nickname.

The funny thing is TMart put up some pretty good numbers passing if I'm not mistaken in high school. Obviously that doesn't always guarantee the same thing is going to happen in college. I think with the right system and with the right scheme TMart could be an adequate/good passer. I really think our 'system' *cough* this year would have limited any quarterback. I almost feel bad for him.

Wait, I do feel bad for him.

 

[knapplc]

let's do some more catching up here.......NU was the only team that recruited him as a qb prospect....for gawd's sakes folks, the kid played in California, don't you think there was a reason he was never recruited as a qb by any California college? :facepalm:

Players fly under the radar all the time. The kid coming for a visit tomorrow, Ameer Abdullah, wasn't recruited by much of anybody until a few weeks ago. Now he's drawing interest from USC, Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee...

Just because a guy wasn't recruited by 20 schools doesn't mean anything. You saw with your own eyes what he did against our opponents the first half of the season. You still doubt he was worth recruiting, or starting as a QB after that?

 

[Blackshirtsguru]

let's do some more catching up here.......NU was the only team that recruited him as a qb prospect....for gawd's sakes folks, the kid played in California, don't you think there was a reason he was never recruited as a qb by any California college? :facepalm:

Oh I know this one....ooooh ooooh pick me, pick me!

Because he's NOT a good QB??? :blink:

 

[suh_fan93]

It's funny but the more I've reflected back on the season the more I do see just how bad of a position TMart was put in. I'm still really hoping for Brion Carnes to get a solid look next year and even though I am not sold on a Martinez led Husker team I don't think we saw a QB and an offense this year that were fairly put in the best position to succeed either.

Next year is going to tell so much not just from our QB's standpoint but from an offensive concept and scheming standpoint.

 

[huskerscott]

let's do some more catching up here.......NU was the only team that recruited him as a qb prospect....for gawd's sakes folks, the kid played in California, don't you think there was a reason he was never recruited as a qb by any California college? :facepalm:

Good point. their was a reason that he was never recruited to play QB by any other D1 school, I think this past year proved it. He throws the ball like a shotput. The bottom line is he did not improve from game 1 to game 14, I dont wanna hear the freshman excuse anymore. By the end of the season a freshman is not a freshman anymore especially if the player is seeing significant playing time. If he made any improvement he should have been tearing up OU's and UW's average defenses.

The only reason he went to NU was because they were gonna give him a shot at playing QB.

Martinez will not be the next great QB at Nebraska.

What is with people on this board comparing our coaches and players to the great run we had in 90's. :facepalm: That was light years ago, college football has changed a whole lot since then.

 

[PaulCrewe]

Yes Taylor put up very good numbers in high school, but if one goes back and checks the film a ton of his yardage came from WRs YAC. They threw a lot of short to intermediate routes and more often than not the receivers broke a tackle or two and ran. Seldom did you see Taylor throw a deep route. His coaches understood his strengths and played to them.

Here at NU the strength that Wats and the coaches see is his speed and running ability. However Wats continues to play to that strength by calling the same two or three plays out of about six sets. There was no evolving of the offense while Taylor was healthy. It was the same thing and the coaches seemed set on it. It works against the poor defenses of the world that NU saw early on, but once the defenses got better and QUICKER the same crap they called over and over again stopped working.

The debate as far as throwing QBs goes about as far as the fatties in front of said QB protecting them. The deal with TF, Frost and Crouch to an extent is that they all had brilliant lines and the majority of the time they were called on to pass it was off play-action often throwing to a receiver that had no one around them. WHen the seldom times came when they were forced to throw the ball was when their flaws would shine. Lone exception was probably Frost's last drive vs. Mizzou. Other than that a lot of open WRs were missed, and a lot of the time it was bad.

The thing with Taylor is he(and hopefully can) needs to mature in the passing aspect sense. Pocket presence, reading defenses, locking off WRs(something he did all year, but many denied at the beginning) and knowing when to live to fight another down. To many times these items came out this year, and hopefully if he is really serious about learning from these failures, he addresses them hard this offseason. I am not a Taylor guy, I won't completely give up on the kid either though.

Finally to the original topic of this whole thread. A slot receiver can easily probably be found on the roster. What ever happened to KC Hyland, a player Gilmore himself would see time last fall? The guy has the perfect size to own the middle of the field. To many kids are dying in the depth chart because they do not fit all of Gilmore's "50 things you need to be able to do to play for me" list. He has killed talent before(see Chris Brooks) and continues to do it. There are certain packages a kid could succeed in and Gilmore needs to realize this, tell Wats and then we all need to hope that Watson can incorporate these kids. However they will never get a chance until they get Gilmore's approval.

 

[Hunter94]

Yes Taylor put up very good numbers in high school, but if one goes back and checks the film a ton of his yardage came from WRs YAC. They threw a lot of short to intermediate routes and more often than not the receivers broke a tackle or two and ran. Seldom did you see Taylor throw a deep route. His coaches understood his strengths and played to them.

Here at NU the strength that Wats and the coaches see is his speed and running ability. However Wats continues to play to that strength by calling the same two or three plays out of about six sets. There was no evolving of the offense while Taylor was healthy. It was the same thing and the coaches seemed set on it. It works against the poor defenses of the world that NU saw early on, but once the defenses got better and QUICKER the same crap they called over and over again stopped working.

The debate as far as throwing QBs goes about as far as the fatties in front of said QB protecting them. The deal with TF, Frost and Crouch to an extent is that they all had brilliant lines and the majority of the time they were called on to pass it was off play-action often throwing to a receiver that had no one around them. WHen the seldom times came when they were forced to throw the ball was when their flaws would shine. Lone exception was probably Frost's last drive vs. Mizzou. Other than that a lot of open WRs were missed, and a lot of the time it was bad.

The thing with Taylor is he(and hopefully can) needs to mature in the passing aspect sense. Pocket presence, reading defenses, locking off WRs(something he did all year, but many denied at the beginning) and knowing when to live to fight another down. To many times these items came out this year, and hopefully if he is really serious about learning from these failures, he addresses them hard this offseason. I am not a Taylor guy, I won't completely give up on the kid either though.

Finally to the original topic of this whole thread. A slot receiver can easily probably be found on the roster. What ever happened to KC Hyland, a player Gilmore himself would see time last fall? The guy has the perfect size to own the middle of the field. To many kids are dying in the depth chart because they do not fit all of Gilmore's "50 things you need to be able to do to play for me" list. He has killed talent before(see Chris Brooks) and continues to do it. There are certain packages a kid could succeed in and Gilmore needs to realize this, tell Wats and then we all need to hope that Watson can incorporate these kids. However they will never get a chance until they get Gilmore's approval.

Gilgrove and Watsgrove...both part of the problem.......

 

[Hercules]

The sad thing about threads like these is that I believe players do actually read them from time to time, or they are at least aware of the general sentiment. If Taylor is aware of the fan base's general perception of him, it's going to make him better. The unfortunate part is that it's also going to make him hate Husker fans. He'll be like Niles Paul at Oklahoma State, returning a kick for a TD and then running and glaring at the visiting Husker fans cheering him on.

Not that this is the point of the debate, but you're crazy if you think that guys like Bo Pelini or Taylor Martinez or Niles Paul forget these moments, where people are saying they should leave the team or the state, that they're not good enough for Nebraska. When they come back a week or 2 weeks or a year later and put on a show and the whole state is behind them, cheering them on, they remember that these were the same fans calling for their head not too long ago. The coaches and players know darn well what loyalty is, and they know when the fan base is or isn't behind them. And they're not going to forget.

Sam McKewon is writing articles asking why Bo and his players seem to use the us against the world approach, even when "the world" seems to include Husker fans. But if you're paying attention, it's not that hard to figure out why.

As far as the QB style debate, I feel like on this board I'm arguing with 15 year olds. Articulate 15 year olds to be sure, but people whose only point of reference for Husker football is the Callahan era. I fail to comprehend why someone who lived through the glory days of the program would be opposed to a running QB like Taylor Martinez. We are the winningest football program in the last 40 years thanks in part to QBs who were very similar to Taylor Martinez. And out of all of those QBs - including Turner Gill, Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Eric Crouch, Jammal Lord, Scott Frost, Brook Berringer - Taylor had BY FAR the best freshman season. It's not even close, Taylor's freshman year dwarfed Tommie Frazier's freshman year, and Eric Crouch's freshman year, and I don't think anybody else even got playing time their freshman year.

Honestly folks, I think it's going to be a long, long time before you ever see a freshman QB at Nebraska do what Martinez did this year. If you're waiting to see another kid do what he did, don't hold your breath.

 

[huskerscott]

The sad thing about threads like these is that I believe players do actually read them from time to time, or they are at least aware of the general sentiment. If Taylor is aware of the fan base's general perception of him, it's going to make him better. The unfortunate part is that it's also going to make him hate Husker fans. He'll be like Niles Paul at Oklahoma State, returning a kick for a TD and then running and glaring at the visiting Husker fans cheering him on.

Not that this is the point of the debate, but you're crazy if you think that guys like Bo Pelini or Taylor Martinez or Niles Paul forget these moments, where people are saying they should leave the team or the state, that they're not good enough for Nebraska. When they come back a week or 2 weeks or a year later and put on a show and the whole state is behind them, cheering them on, they remember that these were the same fans calling for their head not too long ago. The coaches and players know darn well what loyalty is, and they know when the fan base is or isn't behind them. And they're not going to forget.

Sam McKewon is writing articles asking why Bo and his players seem to use the us against the world approach, even when "the world" seems to include Husker fans. But if you're paying attention, it's not that hard to figure out why.

As far as the QB style debate, I feel like on this board I'm arguing with 15 year olds. Articulate 15 year olds to be sure, but people whose only point of reference for Husker football is the Callahan era. I fail to comprehend why someone who lived through the glory days of the program would be opposed to a running QB like Taylor Martinez. We are the winningest football program in the last 40 years thanks in part to QBs who were very similar to Taylor Martinez. And out of all of those QBs - including Turner Gill, Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Eric Crouch, Jammal Lord, Scott Frost, Brook Berringer - Taylor had BY FAR the best freshman season. It's not even close, Taylor's freshman year dwarfed Tommie Frazier's freshman year, and Eric Crouch's freshman year, and I don't think anybody else even got playing time their freshman year.

Honestly folks, I think it's going to be a long, long time before you ever see a freshman QB at Nebraska do what Martinez did this year. If you're waiting to see another kid do what he did, don't hold your breath.

Guys like Niles Paul bring on the criticism themselves. Im sorry when you go to the media and complain about not getting the ball, then contiune to drop passes the next week, thats on you.

Samething with Taylor, he came out said that he wanted it to be his team. Well, he sure hasnt acted like it. Calling your dad or whatever during the A&M game and then having your daddy email the AP to make a statement that your son is coming back is something that a 5 year old will make his dad do. You didnt see guys like Scott Frost or Zac Lee do that when they faced the harsh criticism of Nebraska fans. Im sorry but this guy has Harrison Beck and Patrick Whitt written all over him.

 

[Hercules]

The sad thing about threads like these is that I believe players do actually read them from time to time, or they are at least aware of the general sentiment. If Taylor is aware of the fan base's general perception of him, it's going to make him better. The unfortunate part is that it's also going to make him hate Husker fans. He'll be like Niles Paul at Oklahoma State, returning a kick for a TD and then running and glaring at the visiting Husker fans cheering him on.

Not that this is the point of the debate, but you're crazy if you think that guys like Bo Pelini or Taylor Martinez or Niles Paul forget these moments, where people are saying they should leave the team or the state, that they're not good enough for Nebraska. When they come back a week or 2 weeks or a year later and put on a show and the whole state is behind them, cheering them on, they remember that these were the same fans calling for their head not too long ago. The coaches and players know darn well what loyalty is, and they know when the fan base is or isn't behind them. And they're not going to forget.

Sam McKewon is writing articles asking why Bo and his players seem to use the us against the world approach, even when "the world" seems to include Husker fans. But if you're paying attention, it's not that hard to figure out why.

As far as the QB style debate, I feel like on this board I'm arguing with 15 year olds. Articulate 15 year olds to be sure, but people whose only point of reference for Husker football is the Callahan era. I fail to comprehend why someone who lived through the glory days of the program would be opposed to a running QB like Taylor Martinez. We are the winningest football program in the last 40 years thanks in part to QBs who were very similar to Taylor Martinez. And out of all of those QBs - including Turner Gill, Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Eric Crouch, Jammal Lord, Scott Frost, Brook Berringer - Taylor had BY FAR the best freshman season. It's not even close, Taylor's freshman year dwarfed Tommie Frazier's freshman year, and Eric Crouch's freshman year, and I don't think anybody else even got playing time their freshman year.

Honestly folks, I think it's going to be a long, long time before you ever see a freshman QB at Nebraska do what Martinez did this year. If you're waiting to see another kid do what he did, don't hold your breath.

Guys like Niles Paul bring on the criticism themselves. Im sorry when you go to the media and complain about not getting the ball, then contiune to drop passes the next week, thats on you.

Samething with Taylor, he came out said that he wanted it to be his team. Well, he sure hasnt acted like it. Calling your dad or whatever during the A&M game and then having your daddy email the AP to make a statement that your son is coming back is something that a 5 year old will make his dad do. You didnt see guys like Scott Frost or Zac Lee do that when they faced the harsh criticism of Nebraska fans. Im sorry but this guy has Harrison Beck and Patrick Whitt written all over him.

It's one thing to criticize a guy's game, and say that he needs to get better. That's totally cool in my book.

It's another thing to post to his facebook wall, saying things like, "I hope you quit the team." It's yet another thing to attack a kid's character, which has happened routinely with Niles Paul and with Taylor Martinez.

Right now people are attacking Taylor Martinez not just from an x's and o's standpoint, but they're attacking his character, whether that's by saying he faked injuries, or that he wasn't trying hard, or that he's not a leader, or that he's a quitter, etc.

If I were Taylor Martinez (and being an introverted person myself, I can relate to the way people sometimes respond to him), by this time I would have tuned out the entire fan base. And, for at least me personally, and I'm pretty sure for guys like Bo, I wouldn't forget about this period of time. I could win the Heisman trophy and 2 national championships and be the legend of all legends in Husker folklore. But I'd still look at the fans as a bunch of phonies.

 

[Hunter94]

The sad thing about threads like these is that I believe players do actually read them from time to time, or they are at least aware of the general sentiment. If Taylor is aware of the fan base's general perception of him, it's going to make him better. The unfortunate part is that it's also going to make him hate Husker fans. He'll be like Niles Paul at Oklahoma State, returning a kick for a TD and then running and glaring at the visiting Husker fans cheering him on.

Not that this is the point of the debate, but you're crazy if you think that guys like Bo Pelini or Taylor Martinez or Niles Paul forget these moments, where people are saying they should leave the team or the state, that they're not good enough for Nebraska. When they come back a week or 2 weeks or a year later and put on a show and the whole state is behind them, cheering them on, they remember that these were the same fans calling for their head not too long ago. The coaches and players know darn well what loyalty is, and they know when the fan base is or isn't behind them. And they're not going to forget.

Sam McKewon is writing articles asking why Bo and his players seem to use the us against the world approach, even when "the world" seems to include Husker fans. But if you're paying attention, it's not that hard to figure out why.

As far as the QB style debate, I feel like on this board I'm arguing with 15 year olds. Articulate 15 year olds to be sure, but people whose only point of reference for Husker football is the Callahan era. I fail to comprehend why someone who lived through the glory days of the program would be opposed to a running QB like Taylor Martinez. We are the winningest football program in the last 40 years thanks in part to QBs who were very similar to Taylor Martinez. And out of all of those QBs - including Turner Gill, Steve Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Eric Crouch, Jammal Lord, Scott Frost, Brook Berringer - Taylor had BY FAR the best freshman season. It's not even close, Taylor's freshman year dwarfed Tommie Frazier's freshman year, and Eric Crouch's freshman year, and I don't think anybody else even got playing time their freshman year.

Honestly folks, I think it's going to be a long, long time before you ever see a freshman QB at Nebraska do what Martinez did this year. If you're waiting to see another kid do what he did, don't hold your breath.

Guys like Niles Paul bring on the criticism themselves. Im sorry when you go to the media and complain about not getting the ball, then contiune to drop passes the next week, thats on you.

Samething with Taylor, he came out said that he wanted it to be his team. Well, he sure hasnt acted like it. Calling your dad or whatever during the A&M game and then having your daddy email the AP to make a statement that your son is coming back is something that a 5 year old will make his dad do. You didnt see guys like Scott Frost or Zac Lee do that when they faced the harsh criticism of Nebraska fans. Im sorry but this guy has Harrison Beck and Patrick Whitt written all over him.

It's one thing to criticize a guy's game, and say that he needs to get better. That's totally cool in my book.

It's another thing to post to his facebook wall, saying things like, "I hope you quit the team." It's yet another thing to attack a kid's character, which has happened routinely with Niles Paul and with Taylor Martinez.

Right now people are attacking Taylor Martinez not just from an x's and o's standpoint, but they're attacking his character, whether that's by saying he faked injuries, or that he wasn't trying hard, or that he's not a leader, or that he's a quitter, etc.

If I were Taylor Martinez (and being an introverted person myself, I can relate to the way people sometimes respond to him), by this time I would have tuned out the entire fan base. And, for at least me personally, and I'm pretty sure for guys like Bo, I wouldn't forget about this period of time. I could win the Heisman trophy and 2 national championships and be the legend of all legends in Husker folklore. But I'd still look at the fans as a bunch of phonies.

it's never easy when you lose 3 out of 4 of your last games and lay down against a team you beat by 35 pts. earlier in the season...face it, we saw our team quit in Sandie!

they flat out sucked! dedhoarse