Carnes Starter?

[beanman]

You just repeated what I said. At any given moment Martinez is either (1) standing in the pocket surveying the field, or (2) scrambling on a designed run. And yes, I mean that both can take place during the same play. But once he's made the transition from one, he seems incapable of going back to the other.

Carnes, meanwhile, will stand in the pocket and survey, find nothing open, roll out, stand and survey, roll out some more, then find a target and hit it or scramble. He is constantly scanning and trying to make a play.

Point being, I can't remember a time I saw Martinez roll out and then pull up and make a throw instead of continuing to run. The only exception might be those odd shovel pass things we saw in the Holiday Bowl.

Whazzzbuzza? I did not repeat what you said. You said Martinez EITHER stands in the pocket OR takes off on a designed run. Taylor's very first series in the Spring Game featured a play where he was NOT supposed to run, but did. And ran for a first down. On a play designed to be a pass. Because there were no open receivers.

Again - it was NOT a designed run.

How do you think we're saying the same thing?

I don't know why I am even bothering with this, because I know you've never ever been wrong, but if you think he surveyed the field on that play you must be smoking something. He looked at one receiver and took off. That is all.

 

[walksalone]

you can look at tapes from HS, and try to determine who has the greater upside, but it's tough to make these determinations against HS opponents.

It's tough to legitimize who's going to be the starter when you have so little to go off of. T-Mart has got to be the proverbial, leader in the clubhouse, because Carnes at this point is an unknown quantity, and to think that he's going to walk right in and just have this down cold, is a bit naive. At least you know what is "wrong" with aspects of T-Mart's game, and you know what to work on.

 

[Enhance]

you can look at tapes from HS, and try to determine who has the greater upside, but it's tough to make these determinations against HS opponents.

It's tough to legitimize who's going to be the starter when you have so little to go off of. T-Mart has got to be the proverbial, leader in the clubhouse, because Carnes at this point is an unknown quantity, and to think that he's going to walk right in and just have this down cold, is a bit naive. At least you know what is "wrong" with aspects of T-Mart's game, and you know what to work on.

Good point.

Going off of that, and correct me if I'm making the wrong assumption, but with T-Mart's game we know what he's got and what he doesn't. We also know the things he needs to improve on. With Carnes we have far less information and only one glorified practice to base an opinion off of.

I still think Martinez is going to be our guy in September unless some pretty crazy things happen this summer and in fall camp, but I don't hink the chances are very high.

 

[bshirt]

You just repeated what I said. At any given moment Martinez is either (1) standing in the pocket surveying the field, or (2) scrambling on a designed run. And yes, I mean that both can take place during the same play. But once he's made the transition from one, he seems incapable of going back to the other.

Carnes, meanwhile, will stand in the pocket and survey, find nothing open, roll out, stand and survey, roll out some more, then find a target and hit it or scramble. He is constantly scanning and trying to make a play.

Point being, I can't remember a time I saw Martinez roll out and then pull up and make a throw instead of continuing to run. The only exception might be those odd shovel pass things we saw in the Holiday Bowl.

Whazzzbuzza? I did not repeat what you said. You said Martinez EITHER stands in the pocket OR takes off on a designed run. Taylor's very first series in the Spring Game featured a play where he was NOT supposed to run, but did. And ran for a first down. On a play designed to be a pass. Because there were no open receivers.

Again - it was NOT a designed run.

How do you think we're saying the same thing?

Designed run was a poor choice of words. My point is that for Taylor, if the throw is not there, he tucks it and runs, never to think about the throw again. He is either in "run mode" or "throw mode" but never both at the same time. (Same play, yes; same time, no.)

Carnes is the exact opposite. He has the ability to move out of the pocket and position himself as a threat to run, but does so while keeping his head up and ball ready to hit a receiver if one should open up.

It's amazing how much he can do so flawlessly without even taking one single snap in any div1 game. Impressive!!

 

[walksalone]

you can look at tapes from HS, and try to determine who has the greater upside, but it's tough to make these determinations against HS opponents.

It's tough to legitimize who's going to be the starter when you have so little to go off of. T-Mart has got to be the proverbial, leader in the clubhouse, because Carnes at this point is an unknown quantity, and to think that he's going to walk right in and just have this down cold, is a bit naive. At least you know what is "wrong" with aspects of T-Mart's game, and you know what to work on.

Good point.

Going off of that, and correct me if I'm making the wrong assumption, but with T-Mart's game we know what he's got and what he doesn't. We also know the things he needs to improve on. With Carnes we have far less information and only one glorified practice to base an opinion off of.

I still think Martinez is going to be our guy in September unless some pretty crazy things happen this summer and in fall camp, but I don't hink the chances are very high.

I think T-Mart's the leader in the clubhouse, unless Carnes or somebody else has a hellified preseason practice.

Here's something else. What do you do if T-Mart, is running the ball, like a god, his passing improves, but his decision making is suspect. Then Carnes throws the ball better than T-Mart, doesn't run as well, and his decision making is suspect as well. Then Green comes in, his decision making has improved greatly, his throwing and running are middle of the pack compared to the other two.

I have an odd feeling that this could be the scenario...

 

[knapplc]

It's amazing how much he can do so flawlessly without even taking one single snap in any div1 game. Impressive!!

And he's never fumbled or thrown a pick or made a bad read or ran for negative yardage or missed a blind-side blitz or missed a read or overthrew a receiver or even lost a single college game, ever. Think about that. If he can just keep that up for four more years, he'll be a star. A star, I say!

 

[Enhance]

you can look at tapes from HS, and try to determine who has the greater upside, but it's tough to make these determinations against HS opponents.

It's tough to legitimize who's going to be the starter when you have so little to go off of. T-Mart has got to be the proverbial, leader in the clubhouse, because Carnes at this point is an unknown quantity, and to think that he's going to walk right in and just have this down cold, is a bit naive. At least you know what is "wrong" with aspects of T-Mart's game, and you know what to work on.

Good point.

Going off of that, and correct me if I'm making the wrong assumption, but with T-Mart's game we know what he's got and what he doesn't. We also know the things he needs to improve on. With Carnes we have far less information and only one glorified practice to base an opinion off of.

I still think Martinez is going to be our guy in September unless some pretty crazy things happen this summer and in fall camp, but I don't hink the chances are very high.

I think T-Mart's the leader in the clubhouse, unless Carnes or somebody else has a hellified preseason practice.

Here's something else. What do you do if T-Mart, is running the ball, like a god, his passing improves, but his decision making is suspect. Then Carnes throws the ball better than T-Mart, doesn't run as well, and his decision making is suspect as well. Then Green comes in, his decision making has improved greatly, his throwing and running are middle of the pack compared to the other two.

I have an odd feeling that this could be the scenario...

I hope that doesn't happen :lol: . It could turn into a long season if that's the case.

 

[zoogs]

Decision-making gets the edge. Probably edge to TM in that one, depends on the separation between him and Green though. But TM should be the incumbent, so it'd be hard for Green or anyone to unseat him anyways.

It's not like Ganz was some strong-armed, fundamentally great passer. But more often than not, he knew what to do in our offense.

 

[robsker]

Decision-making gets the edge. Probably edge to TM in that one, depends on the separation between him and Green though. But TM should be the incumbent, so it'd be hard for Green or anyone to unseat him anyways.

It's not like Ganz was some strong-armed, fundamentally great passer. But more often than not, he knew what to do in our offense.

What this whole debate has shown for certain is one thing.... We have to be greatly concerned with the NU QB situation. We do not have a field-tested trustworthy QB upon whom we can depend to move the offense into a solid scoring machine. TMart is field-tested but not trustworthy. Carnes is not field tested and an unknown quantity. So... trobles lie ahead. Against good defenses, it is reasonable to assert that NU will wildly struggle to put up points (not unlike last year). Thus, no matter how good the defense will be, given the predicted state of the offense, and the unknown nature of special teams, and then combine that with the schedule difficulty... well... prepare for a 5 loss season or so. It will still be fun and will still be interesting... but lets get real here folks... this upcoming season will be more rocky than smooth. Outside pundits are way over stating our case as national contenders.. it sells well. But insiders like us should know... NU is in for a rocky season.

 

[GMoose]

Decision-making gets the edge. Probably edge to TM in that one, depends on the separation between him and Green though. But TM should be the incumbent, so it'd be hard for Green or anyone to unseat him anyways.

It's not like Ganz was some strong-armed, fundamentally great passer. But more often than not, he knew what to do in our offense.

What this whole debate has shown for certain is one thing.... We have to be greatly concerned with the NU QB situation. We do not have a field-tested trustworthy QB upon whom we can depend to move the offense into a solid scoring machine. TMart is field-tested but not trustworthy. Carnes is not field tested and an unknown quantity. So... trobles lie ahead. Against good defenses, it is reasonable to assert that NU will wildly struggle to put up points (not unlike last year). Thus, no matter how good the defense will be, given the predicted state of the offense, and the unknown nature of special teams, and then combine that with the schedule difficulty... well... prepare for a 5 loss season or so. It will still be fun and will still be interesting... but lets get real here folks... this upcoming season will be more rocky than smooth. Outside pundits are way over stating our case as national contenders.. it sells well. But insiders like us should know... NU is in for a rocky season.

I thought that way for a while too, but I really think that's the Shawn Watson hangover. For 3 years Watson's offense programmed us to be timid and unoptimistic - it was conservative, submissive, and folded too easily. Even though we have no reason, I choose to believe our offense's state of mind will improve under Beck. With how conservative our offense has been, it's clear that Watson wasn't confident in our guys, and it would be hard for our guys to be confident in themselves if not even their coach believed in them.

 

[blasted_imposter]

So, I guess robsker (and those likeminded) believes that Nebraska's players and coaching staff doesn't measure up against our big ten competition? Our personnel is less talented than who? Our coaching staff is worse than whose? Our strength and conditioning program is worse than whose? Our tradition is less than...?

Our defense will be worse than.....?

Our skill players are worse than....?

Our OLine is worse than.....?

Answer questions like these and the future becomes more clear, and favorable in my opinion, my dear timid Husker mice.

:bonesflag:

 

[knapplc]

Thus, no matter how good the defense will be, given the predicted state of the offense, and the unknown nature of special teams, and then combine that with the schedule difficulty... well... prepare for a 5 loss season or so. It will still be fun and will still be interesting... but lets get real here folks... this upcoming season will be more rocky than smooth. Outside pundits are way over stating our case as national contenders.. it sells well. But insiders like us should know... NU is in for a rocky season.

This is presuming that none of our 2010 offensive struggles had anything to do with our #1 QB's debilitating injury(ies), our #2 QB going down at the same time, our #3 QB suffering a concussion in his first start, our OC and WR coaches having checked out mid-season since they knew this was their last season at Nebraska, our O-Line coach being incapable/overwhelmed, and sundry injuries to our linemen in general. That's a difficult presumption to make.

Granted, it is also difficult to presume that we've got all these problems fixed. We're breaking in a new OC and WR coach, a new offensive philosophy, we do not know yet how well mentally and physically our #1 QB will heal, and we do not know if our O Line will improve. So that's a bit of a toss-up, but I would not be concerned that we're going to score less than we scored last year. I would presume, worst case, that we'll score about the same.

Last year's opponents had an average Scoring Defense rank of 63.5 (26.6 PPG). In-conference their ranks averaged to 56.6 (25.5 PPG).

This year's opponents, using last year's numbers, have an average Scoring Defense rank of 59.8 (57.5 PPG). In-conference their ranks averaged to 51.1 (24.4 PPG).

Not a significantly more difficult schedule trying to score against these defenses - although it is important to note that such comparisons are difficult due to graduation, coaching changes, etc.

 

[UGAHusker]

So, I guess robsker (and those likeminded) believes that Nebraska's players and coaching staff doesn't measure up against our big ten competition? Our personnel is less talented than who? Our coaching staff is worse than whose? Our strength and conditioning program is worse than whose? Our tradition is less than...?

Our defense will be worse than.....?

Our skill players are worse than....?

Our OLine is worse than.....?

Answer questions like these and the future becomes more clear, and favorable in my opinion, my dear timid Husker mice.

:bonesflag:

Cool Blackshirts flag emoticon. Where did you find it?

 

[robsker]

Decision-making gets the edge. Probably edge to TM in that one, depends on the separation between him and Green though. But TM should be the incumbent, so it'd be hard for Green or anyone to unseat him anyways.

It's not like Ganz was some strong-armed, fundamentally great passer. But more often than not, he knew what to do in our offense.

What this whole debate has shown for certain is one thing.... We have to be greatly concerned with the NU QB situation. We do not have a field-tested trustworthy QB upon whom we can depend to move the offense into a solid scoring machine. TMart is field-tested but not trustworthy. Carnes is not field tested and an unknown quantity. So... trobles lie ahead. Against good defenses, it is reasonable to assert that NU will wildly struggle to put up points (not unlike last year). Thus, no matter how good the defense will be, given the predicted state of the offense, and the unknown nature of special teams, and then combine that with the schedule difficulty... well... prepare for a 5 loss season or so. It will still be fun and will still be interesting... but lets get real here folks... this upcoming season will be more rocky than smooth. Outside pundits are way over stating our case as national contenders.. it sells well. But insiders like us should know... NU is in for a rocky season.

I thought that way for a while too, but I really think that's the Shawn Watson hangover. For 3 years Watson's offense programmed us to be timid and unoptimistic - it was conservative, submissive, and folded too easily. Even though we have no reason, I choose to believe our offense's state of mind will improve under Beck. With how conservative our offense has been, it's clear that Watson wasn't confident in our guys, and it would be hard for our guys to be confident in themselves if not even their coach believed in them.

Watson may well not have had confidence for a reason... we shall soon see. I imagine that we will improve some... how can we not... with guys like Turner, Bell, an improved Burkhead, Kinnie, Cotton & Reed --- balanced against the loss of Helu, Henry, Williams (I don't think losing Paul or McNeil really will have any impact) --- I'd guess a modest improvement is likely. That said, the wildcard is QB. I'm not convinced that TMart will ever be the answer... maybe he will be... who knows? But I remain unconvinced. Green? no. Carnes? Who knows... we'll see.

So... some improvement is likely... quite a bit if the QB thing, despite my misgivings toward that end, becomes less of a liability. But... if the QB thing goes as I suspect, the offense will go merely from pathetic to perhaps a little below average. If the QB thing goes better than I think, well then maybe the offense goes from a liability to a neutral thing. But there is absolutely no reason to assert that the offense will any time soon be better than an average major conference offense. If we improve that much, to an average offense, then that would be great. Doubtful that that much improvement happens, but I am doubtless convinced that we will improve some. The arrow, seemingly is in the right direction --- albeit a rather small arrow it is.

 

[Hujan]

You just repeated what I said. At any given moment Martinez is either (1) standing in the pocket surveying the field, or (2) scrambling on a designed run. And yes, I mean that both can take place during the same play. But once he's made the transition from one, he seems incapable of going back to the other.

Carnes, meanwhile, will stand in the pocket and survey, find nothing open, roll out, stand and survey, roll out some more, then find a target and hit it or scramble. He is constantly scanning and trying to make a play.

Point being, I can't remember a time I saw Martinez roll out and then pull up and make a throw instead of continuing to run. The only exception might be those odd shovel pass things we saw in the Holiday Bowl.

Whazzzbuzza? I did not repeat what you said. You said Martinez EITHER stands in the pocket OR takes off on a designed run. Taylor's very first series in the Spring Game featured a play where he was NOT supposed to run, but did. And ran for a first down. On a play designed to be a pass. Because there were no open receivers.

Again - it was NOT a designed run.

How do you think we're saying the same thing?

Designed run was a poor choice of words. My point is that for Taylor, if the throw is not there, he tucks it and runs, never to think about the throw again. He is either in "run mode" or "throw mode" but never both at the same time. (Same play, yes; same time, no.)

Carnes is the exact opposite. He has the ability to move out of the pocket and position himself as a threat to run, but does so while keeping his head up and ball ready to hit a receiver if one should open up.

It's amazing how much he can do so flawlessly without even taking one single snap in any div1 game. Impressive!!

Seriously, what's your point? Yes or no: Do you think you can tell anything about a kid's likely tendencies before they play in a game? You act like we cannot make any assessments about Carnes' game just because he hasn't played in an actual game yet. I think this is shortsighted and foolish. But I don't need to tell you why because I strongly suspect you don't even believe this is true yourself.

From his high school footage, to the practice footage, to everything we've heard from sportswriters/coaches/players, to the spring game, every single thing I've seen suggests that Carnes is the type of QB who is comfortable rolling out of the pocket, can pass on the run, and is able to by some time as a result of these things. Why do you insist on denying it?

If you want the gloves to come off about Taylor they can come off. Since you're so stuck on what we don't know about Carnes, let's talk about what we DO know about Taylor. How about the fact that the he does not have any of most fundamental things you need in your quarterback:

Comfortable in the pocket? Nope.

Leadership? Nope.

Ability to stretch the field with the long ball? Not really.

Reliably move the chains on third down? Nope.

Durable? Not quite.

And that's really the point that you're missing: My high praise for Carnes has less to do with what he might bring to the table, and has more to do with what Taylor apparently does not.