Carnes Starter?

knapplc said:
CornfedChris said:
1. Still Injured? Check

2. Still throwing off back foot? Check

3. Still Stares down receivers? Check

4. Still Has no progression ability? Check

5. Still has Accuracy issues? Check

6. Still No Pocket presence? Check

7. Still Has no drop back routine? Check

8. Still has Issues getting rid of ball (Instead scampers around trying to run when he has no clue where defenders are, getting thrown to the ground in the process)? Check

9. Still Low Football IQ? Check

10. Still Has trouble breaking down coverages? Check

11. Game management issues. (Here is one thing he's a little better at.)

12. etc...

13. "Will start barring injury throughout 2011?" che.... um maybe not.
Click to expand...

But what's so funny about this is, all of that (minus the "low football IQ," which you can't possibly judge from your easy chair) can be explained by two words: Redshirt Freshman.

And the alternative is to start........................................................... another Redshirt Freshman.

Who, when IT hits the fan, may very well:

Get injured

Throw off his back foot

Stare down a receiver

Have no progression ability

Have accuracy issues

Have no pocket presence

Have no drop-back routine

Have issues getting rid of the ball

Have trouble breaking down coverage

Have game management issues

Etc

But despite all that, he's better than the guy who we had last year, and we know that because he had gaudy High School film (and we'll forget that the last guy had that, too) and because we saw him run 20 plays in a scrimmage.
Click to expand...
So because he is young he's aloud to forget the BASICS of the position?

As far as his IQ, listen to Taylor's post spring-game interview.

Reporter:

"With the new offense how would you assess your development as a quarterback?"

Taylor's Response:

"Uhmm... it's like... in this offense we have to learn... like.. you know.. a lot more stuff and what last year's cuz this offense we hafta pretty much like... setup protections the plays... and which pretty much like everything... so."

I don't know what it takes to convince people that he's not the answer.. maybe another cringe-worthy season. But for those who are blinded by all the flashy stats, replays, and awards... I hope you open your eyes soon. He's probably not "developing" as much as you would like to think!

I'm done with this stupid argument.

 
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CornfedChris said:
So because he is young he's aloud to forget the BASICS of the position?

As far as his IQ, listen to Taylor's post spring-game interview.

Reporter:

"With the new offense how would you assess your development as a quarterback?"

 

Taylor's Response:

"Uhmm... it's like... in this offense we have to learn... like.. you know.. a lot more stuff and what last year's cuz this offense we hafta pretty much like... setup protections the plays... and which pretty much like everything... so."

I don't know what it takes to convince people that he's not the answer.. maybe another cringe-worthy season. But for those who are blinded by all the flashy stats, replays, and awards... I hope you open your eyes soon. He's probably not "developing" as much as you would like to think!

I'm done with this stupid argument.
Click to expand...

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because Taylor gave some bad answers to some interview questions at 19 years old he's got a low IQ? Come on, man. That's not even remotely fair.

And what if he is dumb as a post? Do we really care? Vince Young couldn't string three sentences together at Texas and he (should have) won a Heisman and he DID win a MNC.

Flashy stats, awards, flashy replays.... these are now bad things?

And to answer you honestly, I have no idea how much he's developing. The ONLY thing I'm saying is, let's not throw him under the bus. I said the same thing about pretty much every Husker player whom the fans were unhappy with over the past, say, 30 years, so I'm just being consistent.

I don't care if Carnes or Martinez starts. I'm just poking holes in the "problems" that Taylor has (but doesn't) and in the "awesomeness" that Brion has (but hasn't proven).

And I agree that it's a stupid argument, although I'm not really "arguing" with anyone, just talking football.

It's a reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally long off season. Got anything better/else to talk about? I'd love to change the subject.

 
knapplc said:
CornfedChris said:
So because he is young he's aloud to forget the BASICS of the position?

As far as his IQ, listen to Taylor's post spring-game interview.

Reporter:

"With the new offense how would you assess your development as a quarterback?"

 

Taylor's Response:

"Uhmm... it's like... in this offense we have to learn... like.. you know.. a lot more stuff and what last year's cuz this offense we hafta pretty much like... setup protections the plays... and which pretty much like everything... so."

I don't know what it takes to convince people that he's not the answer.. maybe another cringe-worthy season. But for those who are blinded by all the flashy stats, replays, and awards... I hope you open your eyes soon. He's probably not "developing" as much as you would like to think!

I'm done with this stupid argument.
Click to expand...

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because Taylor gave some bad answers to some interview questions at 19 years old he's got a low IQ? Come on, man. That's not even remotely fair.

And what if he is dumb as a post? Do we really care? Vince Young couldn't string three sentences together at Texas and he (should have) won a Heisman and he DID win a MNC.

Flashy stats, awards, flashy replays.... these are now bad things?

And to answer you honestly, I have no idea how much he's developing. The ONLY thing I'm saying is, let's not throw him under the bus. I said the same thing about pretty much every Husker player whom the fans were unhappy with over the past, say, 30 years, so I'm just being consistent.

I don't care if Carnes or Martinez starts. I'm just poking holes in the "problems" that Taylor has (but doesn't) and in the "awesomeness" that Brion has (but hasn't proven).

And I agree that it's a stupid argument, although I'm not really "arguing" with anyone, just talking football.

It's a reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally long off season. Got anything better/else to talk about? I'd love to change the subject.
Click to expand...
yea, so ummmmmmmm....... why do people call you the pine apple? jw

 
CornfedChris said:
knapplc said:
CornfedChris said:
1. Still Injured? Check

2. Still throwing off back foot? Check

3. Still Stares down receivers? Check

4. Still Has no progression ability? Check

5. Still has Accuracy issues? Check

6. Still No Pocket presence? Check

7. Still Has no drop back routine? Check

8. Still has Issues getting rid of ball (Instead scampers around trying to run when he has no clue where defenders are, getting thrown to the ground in the process)? Check

9. Still Low Football IQ? Check

10. Still Has trouble breaking down coverages? Check

11. Game management issues. (Here is one thing he's a little better at.)

12. etc...

13. "Will start barring injury throughout 2011?" che.... um maybe not.
Click to expand...

But what's so funny about this is, all of that (minus the "low football IQ," which you can't possibly judge from your easy chair) can be explained by two words: Redshirt Freshman.

And the alternative is to start........................................................... another Redshirt Freshman.

Who, when IT hits the fan, may very well:

Get injured

Throw off his back foot

Stare down a receiver

Have no progression ability

Have accuracy issues

Have no pocket presence

Have no drop-back routine

Have issues getting rid of the ball

Have trouble breaking down coverage

Have game management issues

Etc

But despite all that, he's better than the guy who we had last year, and we know that because he had gaudy High School film (and we'll forget that the last guy had that, too) and because we saw him run 20 plays in a scrimmage.
Click to expand...
So because he is young he's aloud to forget the BASICS of the position?

As far as his IQ, listen to Taylor's post spring-game interview.

Reporter:

"With the new offense how would you assess your development as a quarterback?"

Taylor's Response:

"Uhmm... it's like... in this offense we have to learn... like.. you know.. a lot more stuff and what last year's cuz this offense we hafta pretty much like... setup protections the plays... and which pretty much like everything... so."

I don't know what it takes to convince people that he's not the answer.. maybe another cringe-worthy season. But for those who are blinded by all the flashy stats, replays, and awards... I hope you open your eyes soon. He's probably not "developing" as much as you would like to think!

I'm done with this stupid argument.
Click to expand...
Wait - you're judging Martinez because he's not good in front of a camera or with reporters? I have news for you man - many people aren't good in front of cameras.

Perhaps you have forgotten, but our head football coach is TERRIBLE in front of a camera. Absolutely atrocious nine times out of ten. Yet I believe we can all agree the guy does a pretty good coaching job, no?

Furthermore, I don't know what it takes to convince people that they don't know if he's the answer. Think back to this time last year - what were the conversations about on this board? I'll tell you. It was all "Martinez is the answer" and "Lee shouldn't start" with a little bit of "I hope Green overtakes them all" mixed in there.

Now, because an injured Martinez looked bad in one spring practice and a redshirt freshman looked good playing against threes and fours on defense with the most basic offense you can imagine, the redshirt freshman is all of a sudden the answer and Martinez is old news.

I don't care who the starting quarterback is as long as he is the best option in the coaches opinion, but it's ridiculous to think Carnes is the answer based off the minimal evidence we have. Similarly, it's not wise to think Martinez is a refined product and doesn't have issues. Of course he does. But as far as I'm concerned, it's idiotic to base any assumption off of one spring game, for either quarterback.

 
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I wouldn't read too much into interviews, but there's some legitimate concern about Taylor and getting all the schemes down, I think, and at the very least a good answer would have assuaged those concerns. Frankly, it sounds like he didn't have a clue about either offense, but you're right, it could be bad speaking.

But you know what? Put up Cam Newton's QB Camp tape with Jon Gruden and you'll find an example of a QB who was clearly taken out of his comfort zone with serious questions and just BSd some non-answers. I don't think that should be dismissed as "maybe he's just bad in front of cameras", either. From the outcome of that, I'd say there are some serious questions about Cam's capacity to pick up plays or any NFL offense.

Not completely comparable, but we are installing a new scheme this year and I just want to see Taylor being comfortable in it and knowledgeable in it. It's supposed to be "Taylor"-made, so everything is set up for him to flourish. But right now he's leaving it as a question mark.

Enhance89 said:
Now, because an injured Martinez looked bad in one spring practice and a redshirt freshman looked good playing against threes and fours on defense with the most basic offense you can imagine, the redshirt freshman is all of a sudden the answer and Martinez is old news.
Click to expand...
FWIW, this is exactly why I'm not enamored with the idea of targeting "dual" (as in running) threat QBs. We forget about all the important qualities that take a lot of time to develop in a quarterback, and become liable to just get drawn to players solely on their athleticism. In which case, the next guy comes along and he can run too, and the last guy is old news. Look at Denard Robinson and Devin Gardner.

 
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Enhance89 said:
CornfedChris said:
knapplc said:
CornfedChris said:
1. Still Injured? Check

2. Still throwing off back foot? Check

3. Still Stares down receivers? Check

4. Still Has no progression ability? Check

5. Still has Accuracy issues? Check

6. Still No Pocket presence? Check

7. Still Has no drop back routine? Check

8. Still has Issues getting rid of ball (Instead scampers around trying to run when he has no clue where defenders are, getting thrown to the ground in the process)? Check

9. Still Low Football IQ? Check

10. Still Has trouble breaking down coverages? Check

11. Game management issues. (Here is one thing he's a little better at.)

12. etc...

13. "Will start barring injury throughout 2011?" che.... um maybe not.
Click to expand...

But what's so funny about this is, all of that (minus the "low football IQ," which you can't possibly judge from your easy chair) can be explained by two words: Redshirt Freshman.

And the alternative is to start........................................................... another Redshirt Freshman.

Who, when IT hits the fan, may very well:

Get injured

Throw off his back foot

Stare down a receiver

Have no progression ability

Have accuracy issues

Have no pocket presence

Have no drop-back routine

Have issues getting rid of the ball

Have trouble breaking down coverage

Have game management issues

Etc

But despite all that, he's better than the guy who we had last year, and we know that because he had gaudy High School film (and we'll forget that the last guy had that, too) and because we saw him run 20 plays in a scrimmage.
Click to expand...
So because he is young he's aloud to forget the BASICS of the position?

As far as his IQ, listen to Taylor's post spring-game interview.

Reporter:

"With the new offense how would you assess your development as a quarterback?"

Taylor's Response:

"Uhmm... it's like... in this offense we have to learn... like.. you know.. a lot more stuff and what last year's cuz this offense we hafta pretty much like... setup protections the plays... and which pretty much like everything... so."

I don't know what it takes to convince people that he's not the answer.. maybe another cringe-worthy season. But for those who are blinded by all the flashy stats, replays, and awards... I hope you open your eyes soon. He's probably not "developing" as much as you would like to think!

I'm done with this stupid argument.
Click to expand...
Wait - you're judging Martinez because he's not good in front of a camera or with reporters? I have news for you man - many people aren't good in front of cameras.

Perhaps you have forgotten, but our head football coach is TERRIBLE in front of a camera. Absolutely atrocious nine times out of ten. Yet I believe we can all agree the guy does a pretty good coaching job, no?

Furthermore, I don't know what it takes to convince people that they don't know if he's the answer. Think back to this time last year - what were the conversations about on this board? I'll tell you. It was all "Martinez is the answer" and "Lee shouldn't start" with a little bit of "I hope Green overtakes them all" mixed in there.

Now, because an injured Martinez looked bad in one spring practice and a redshirt freshman looked good playing against threes and fours on defense with the most basic offense you can imagine, the redshirt freshman is all of a sudden the answer and Martinez is old news.

I don't care who the starting quarterback is as long as he is the best option in the coaches opinion, but it's ridiculous to think Carnes is the answer based off the minimal evidence we have. Similarly, it's not wise to think Martinez is a refined product and doesn't have issues. Of course he does. But as far as I'm concerned, it's idiotic to base any assumption off of one spring game, for either quarterback.
Click to expand...
Wasn't there an epic thread about T-Mart's "interview ability"

 
Lol, you can tell we are all biting at the bit for this season to start.

and just had to throw this in here...

38441_7dtr2scy8f_l.jpg


 
Nexus said:
bshirt said:
Hujan said:
bshirt said:
Hujan said:
knapplc said:
Hujan said:
You just repeated what I said. At any given moment Martinez is either (1) standing in the pocket surveying the field, or (2) scrambling on a designed run. And yes, I mean that both can take place during the same play. But once he's made the transition from one, he seems incapable of going back to the other.

Carnes, meanwhile, will stand in the pocket and survey, find nothing open, roll out, stand and survey, roll out some more, then find a target and hit it or scramble. He is constantly scanning and trying to make a play.

Point being, I can't remember a time I saw Martinez roll out and then pull up and make a throw instead of continuing to run. The only exception might be those odd shovel pass things we saw in the Holiday Bowl.
Click to expand...

Whazzzbuzza? I did not repeat what you said. You said Martinez EITHER stands in the pocket OR takes off on a designed run. Taylor's very first series in the Spring Game featured a play where he was NOT supposed to run, but did. And ran for a first down. On a play designed to be a pass. Because there were no open receivers.

Again - it was NOT a designed run.

How do you think we're saying the same thing?
Click to expand...
Designed run was a poor choice of words. My point is that for Taylor, if the throw is not there, he tucks it and runs, never to think about the throw again. He is either in "run mode" or "throw mode" but never both at the same time. (Same play, yes; same time, no.)

Carnes is the exact opposite. He has the ability to move out of the pocket and position himself as a threat to run, but does so while keeping his head up and ball ready to hit a receiver if one should open up.
Click to expand...

It's amazing how much he can do so flawlessly without even taking one single snap in any div1 game. Impressive!!
Click to expand...
Seriously, what's your point? Yes or no: Do you think you can tell anything about a kid's likely tendencies before they play in a game? You act like we cannot make any assessments about Carnes' game just because he hasn't played in an actual game yet. I think this is shortsighted and foolish. But I don't need to tell you why because I strongly suspect you don't even believe this is true yourself.

From his high school footage, to the practice footage, to everything we've heard from sportswriters/coaches/players, to the spring game, every single thing I've seen suggests that Carnes is the type of QB who is comfortable rolling out of the pocket, can pass on the run, and is able to by some time as a result of these things. Why do you insist on denying it?

If you want the gloves to come off about Taylor they can come off. Since you're so stuck on what we don't know about Carnes, let's talk about what we DO know about Taylor. How about the fact that the he does not have any of most fundamental things you need in your quarterback:

Comfortable in the pocket? Nope.

Leadership? Nope.

Ability to stretch the field with the long ball? Not really.

Reliably move the chains on third down? Nope.

Durable? Not quite.

And that's really the point that you're missing: My high praise for Carnes has less to do with what he might bring to the table, and has more to do with what Taylor apparently does not.
Click to expand...
Jeeez...Hujan, you're sharper than this. Not feeling well? Hey, we all have bad days. No biggie...

Let me use "walksalone" post on this thread....

What it boils down to is that I hope T-Mart succeeds. I'd rather him out there than somebody, who's an unknown quantity in Barnes. Yea, his tapes from High School make him look like jesus on a stick, but that's in high school, not in front of over 100k+ fans at the big house.

Hujan, you're repeatably making these high statements about Carnes ability to perform in bigtime cfb with nothing but high school tapes to back it up. Can't you see that? He hasn't played even "one" single snap of div1 cfb.

When confronted with this obvious problem you then state it doesn't matter because you can "feel" he has the IT factor. Furthermore you then claim if anyone else can't "feel" his IT factor "you don't have a nose for football".

I don't want the gloves to come off with you Hujan. Surely you can see you're stretching things just a little bit don't you think?
Click to expand...
As I've already mentioned, I'm neutral on this whole "who should start at QB?" debate. Whatever the coaches decide, I'll support.

With that in mind, I've glossed over several threads from this same time last year and the similarities in their arguments to this thread is eerie. Just substitute some names here and there and the song is the same.

Those who cite Carnes' lack of "real game" experience at the college level among other things, also said the same exact thing about Martinez last year around this time. Therefore the reasoning is flawed in this whole argument.

If you feel like re-living this debate from last year, these two threads among many others are fun to read.

http://www.huskerboard.com/index.php?/topic/45039-qb-race/ (@ bshirt, read post #55)

http://www.huskerboard.com/index.php?/topic/45541-qb-race/ (@ bshirt, read post #139) <--- Particularly the last paragraph when you said:

Give me a qb who has an upside over that any day of the week. Results beats experience.
Click to expand...
Hey bshirt, not trying to pick on you here, but essentially what Hujan is arguing for Carnes in this thread is what you were arguing for Martinez last year in those threads I've linked above. Again, I've no interest in who ends up getting the starting job. I'm only pointing out the flaws in the argument itself. You and Hujan will continue to disagree and that's fine. I'm just merely pointing out that you're both agreeing on the same thing, but from different years.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the theme is the somewhat the same but the players are apples & oranges.

Last year I was for a freshman qb to start due to the whole year of qb ineptness once past the three SunBelt teams (99th ranked offense even with a VERY weak sos). Yeah, this year Tmart sucked with two bad wheels but even with being healthy only half the year they ranked 44th in offense with a tougher sos. HUGE difference. I know the haters think ranked opponents like Okie Lite & Missou were "nothing" but any other impartial fan would agree they're both a huge, huge step up from SunBelt teams.

I would also add, imo, watching Z. Lee run the option is probably the most painful thing I've seen on a NU offense in over 30 years. I desperately didn't want to see that again.

The other main difference is that other than his glaringly obvious greased lightning speed, I never claimed at all he would be a senior Dan Marino throwing the ball as so very many claim Carnes already is.

Without a shred of doubt, Carnes has a much, much more difficult task assaulting the #1 slot than Tmart did last year.

 
This does sound a lot like last year, on who would you start. I think the proven starter is Martinez. You would have to think he has to be better than last year, [ he was pretty good till the injury] considering the experience he has gained from a full season. If he can stay healthy all season, I would think Carnes will see playing time only if we have a good lead in games where it would be wise to get Taylor out of there and not risk injury. The Wis game will be the one that, decisions will start to be made on who is our best option at qb, if we lose that game because Taylor has a bad game. If Carnes gets a start this year it will be after that game, IMO. As long as Martinez stays healthy, Carnes does mop up duty. Cody will play some, but it looks like Carnes has already impressed the coaches and the fans. Lets hope Taylor has a full season with only the normal aches and pains that comes after each game, and not a serious sidelining one.

GBR!!!

 
CornfedChris said:
1. Still Injured? Check

2. Still throwing off back foot? Check

3. Still Stares down receivers? Check

4. Still Has no progression ability? Check

5. Still has Accuracy issues? Check

6. Still No Pocket presence? Check

7. Still Has no drop back routine? Check

8. Still has Issues getting rid of ball (Instead scampers around trying to run when he has no clue where defenders are, getting thrown to the ground in the process)? Check

9. Still Low Football IQ? Check

10. Still Has trouble breaking down coverages? Check

11. Game management issues. (Here is one thing he's a little better at.)

12. etc...

13. "Will start barring injury throughout 2011?" che.... um maybe not.
Click to expand...
1. Still Injured? Check Yup, it takes a while to recover.

2. Still throwing off back foot? Check Some... yes. That's Beck's job to fix.

3. Still Stares down receivers? Check Uh, try watching the mid season, on from last year.

4. Still Has no progression ability? Check Again, try watching some tape.

5. Still has Accuracy issues? Check It's a given. But, so did EC and TF.

6. Still No Pocket presence? Check That's something for Beck to fix. His presence was much better against OSU and Mizzou.... until he got hurt.

7. Still Has no drop back routine? Check He's 5-7 step drop guy. That's not what our offense is.

8. Still has Issues getting rid of ball (Instead scampers around trying to run when he has no clue where defenders are, getting thrown to the ground in the process)? Check Something he can grow in. See, almost every freshman QB.

9. Still Low Football IQ? Check So now personal opinions based on....... nothing.... count?

10. Still Has trouble breaking down coverages? Check What freshman QB didn't?

11. Game management issues. (Here is one thing he's a little better at.)

12. etc...

 
CornfedChris said:
3. Still Stares down receivers? Check

4. Still Has no progression ability? Check

5. Still has Accuracy issues? Check

6. Still No Pocket presence? Check

7. Still Has no drop back routine? Check

8. Still has Issues getting rid of ball (Instead scampers around trying to run when he has no clue where defenders are, getting thrown to the ground in the process)? Check

9. Still Low Football IQ? Check

10. Still Has trouble breaking down coverages? Check

11. Game management issues. (Here is one thing he's a little better at.)

12. etc...

13. "Will start barring injury throughout 2011?" che.... um maybe not.
Click to expand...
Out of all the numbers I left up there (which is the majority of the ones you posted), how many do you think Carnes has proven he is better than Martinez at?

Your evidence as to why Martinez shouldn't start is fine. Obviously, he has issues. But you have never seen Carnes in a college football game. Nobody has. Whose to say that when the stakes are high and the pressure is on that Carnes won't exhibit several of these same tendencies?

Now, if you're using your above interpretations for reasons as to why Martinez shouldn't start, I can accept that. But if you're using them for reasons as to why Carnes should start over Martinez, then I can't accept that.

 
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