Apsu

2 minutes ago, commando said:

who will run the investigation?   the trump administration?  they are politically motivated and in trumps america your political enemies can't investigate you.  trump and the republicans have proclaimed it so it msut be law.   good luck getting your wish to have biden investigated under these rules. 

How about Mueller.

You should like that, he's good at finding nothing.

2 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Wait, you think linking en.interfax.com.ua helps your story?

Yes.

What Ukrainian source would you go to?

6 minutes ago, commando said:

you are entitled to buy trumps stories if you want to.

As I said in the post you quoted... "Trump and Giuliani aside".

1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

He was MP under Yanukovych as well and led a group in parliament that wanted closer ties with Russia.

 

This has been his schtick for a while now. He started an investigation in parliament into anti Trump election interference in 2017 based off what seems to have been an internet search.

The Ukrainian government has not been clean since, well, forever.

I would not expect a member of the current pro-US parliament to talk openly about Biden at this time without risking their life.

That is why I would like to see an investigation where people are questioned under oath and the actual books are examined.

4 minutes ago, commando said:

interesting that this info arose after trump strong armed ukraine to come up with info against biden.    i am suspicious of it

You should be suspicious of it.

But there is enough people with credentials (Trump and Giuliani aside) making accusations, that I believe that an investigation is warranted.

3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

According to who? You?

It's available from many sources on the internets.

Google can be your friend too.

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/617936.html

Quote

 

Former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden received $900,000 for lobbying activities from Burisma Group, Ukraine's Verkhovna Rada member Andriy Derkach said citing investigation materials.

Derkach publicized documents which, as he said, "describe the mechanism of getting money by Biden Sr." at a press conference at Interfax-Ukraine's press center in Kyiv on Wednesday.

He also publicized sums that were transferred to Burisma Group representatives, in particular Hunter Biden, a son of the former U.S. vice president.

 

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

Still no evidence, huh?

Just the quote by the Ukrainian MP.

On 10/2/2019 at 1:54 PM, Danny Bateman said:

I think you may be right. We've seen this "I hate both sides and Trump is awful but all my complaints are somehow about the Democrats" shtick before.

 

If they're not here in bad faith to push an agenda of almost exclusively Republican talking points, they're certainly not the most discerning individual.

Many progressives see Trump as a symptom to the problem, and the real problem is the DNC. The Democrats should be the party of the people, but they are not. Their establishment talks the talk, but they have become even more pro-war than and as corrupt as the Republicans. Impeaching Trump and Pence will do nothing to solve the problem, it will just recreate the situation that created Trump. Most of the 2020 Dem candidates are now stepping back from Single Payer M4A.

With the Democrats in power, there will some minor incremental improvements in some areas, but overall things will get worse. Look at Obama's foreign policy record. Our allies loved the guy and for some reason he was given a Nobel Peace Prize, but he escalated Afghanistan, started drone killings in Pakistan, reshuffled the troops in Iraq (he ended nothing), started wars in Libya, Syria, Yemen and Ukraine, and allowed a right wing School of the Americas coup in Honduras which has heightened the refugee crisis at our border.

So yes, I am more critical of Democrats, because I expect more from the party that should represent the left. There is not much to gain by criticizing Trump, because no sane person should have positive expectations of the Republicans. If the DNC did not cheat in 2016, we would not have a President Trump. And it appears that the DNC is hell bent on cheating again in 2020.

If this is bad faith discussion to you, then you can "Vote Blue No Matter Who" and hope for change you can believe in. But you will probably be disappointed again despite no more Trump. And after a few more years of incremental circling around the toilet, you will get another Bush, Trump, or even worse.

And now you can believe Nancy Pelosi, John Brennan, Hillary Clinton, Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, John Bolton and even Pat Robertson, that despite being wrong about everything in the past, bipartisan support for continuing our war in Syria is a good thing.

Lastly; the latest "Republican talking point" has Joe Biden receiving $900,000 in lobbying fees from Burisma.

Quote

Ukrainian MP Andriy Derkach revealed on Wednesday that former Vice President Joe Biden received $900,000 from Burisma Group for lobbying activities.

8 minutes ago, knapplc said:

This has been my theory since about two pages into this thread, which is when I first paid any attention to them.

 

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that for the last, say, seven or eight years we've had a rather steady diet of people come into P&R and do exactly what Apsu is doing. Circular logic, nothing concrete, just trying to confuse debates. Won't be pinned down, won't provide facts, just keeps hammering the same talking points the GOP pushes.

 

I know for a fact that one of our not-so-dearly departed former members was a prominent member of the Nebraska GOP. I don't think any of this is a coincidence.

You are absolutely incorrect.

So many people like yourself are locked into the mostly left / mostly right agenda, that you can't comprehend that some people despise both sides. It is possible to hate Trump and believe that Biden is also corrupt without being a troll.

c

39 minutes ago, QMany said:

Discredit or undermining Mueller's Report is a very nice way of putting it. He is asking foreign governments to help him attack our American intelligence community for his personal reasons.

Nothing can discredit that community more than they did to themselves with the Iraq misinformation.

A big nothing burger, but it did give us a new cold war.

47 minutes ago, commando said:

 like him or not...you are still repeating trumps talking points.   grats.

I had called CNN and MSNBC fake news long before he did, so did I retroactively repeat his talking points?

7 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

What are the chances Apsu is a troll here to confuse and spread conspiracy theories on behalf of Trump. Account created June 2nd. Who would know this??

 You won't find out, because you are blocked.

31 minutes ago, commando said:

for someone who hates trump...you sure do like his talking points.

I have called Trump an orange anal wart at least a half dozen times, described him as corruption incarnate, and posted in support of the impeachment inquiry. I guess that wasn't strong enough to be on record as someone who does not support him.

Regarding Russiagate...
 

Quote

 

1) Hillary lost because she was a s#!tty candidate who ran a terrible campaign. Everyone knows that the DNC (legally) rigged the primary so she would win, they have admitted it in court. The DNC refuses to admit how terrible she was and how rigged the super delegate process is, so they blamed Russia instead. And the neoliberal base bought it. Progressives believe that the primary was stolen from Sanders , and want to see real reform. Instead we got token reform, and the DNC and alligned media are up to their old tricks again.

 

2) Progressives are generally anti-war, and neoliberals are pro-war. The Democrats have surpassed the Republicans as the party of war. back in 2014 Glenn Greenwald wrote that many neoconservatives started crossing party lines to the Democrats once it had been predetermined that Hillary Clinton would be the nominee. She pushed for no-fly zones in Syria and Ukraine (gauranteed to start hot wars) and wanted to further arm Daesh in Syria. She lost, but Russiagate did give the arms industry the cold war that they wanted.

 

6 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

How can you say this about Biden and conversely call the Russia investigation a nothing burger?

 

You're betraying your biases here, friend. You're all over the place ITT.

One last comment, since it is not specifically about Ukraine. It is about the difference between a progressive and a neoliberal, and why progressives know that Russiagate was a load of crap.

1) Hillary lost because she was a s#!tty candidate who ran a terrible campaign. Everyone knows that the DNC (legally) rigged the primary so she would win, they have admitted it in court. The DNC refuses to admit how terrible she was and how rigged the super delegate process is, so they blamed Russia instead. And the neoliberal base bought it. Progressives believe that the primary was stolen from Sanders , and want to see real reform. Instead we got token reform, and the DNC and alligned media are up to their old tricks again.

2) Progressives are generally anti-war, and neoliberals are pro-war. The Democrats have surpassed the Republicans as the party of war. back in 2014 Glenn Greenwald wrote that many neoconservatives started crossing party lines to the Democrats once it had been predetermined that Hillary Clinton would be the nominee. She pushed for no-fly zones in Syria and Ukraine (gauranteed to start hot wars) and wanted to further arm Daesh in Syria. She lost, but Russiagate did give the arms industry the cold war that they wanted.

11 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

John Solomons reporting on this matter has been discredited and that is the 'source' for the information you posted.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/how-a-conservative-columnist-helped-push-a-flawed-ukraine-narrative/2019/09/26/1654026e-dee7-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html

We need an investigation where people answer questions under oath, and the accounting books can be reviewed.

Or we can keep throwing s#!t at each other from people with vested interests.

Note: I am done commenting on this topic.

6 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Except if you bothered to read the report, or read the reports on the report it wasn't. Kushner and Jr. we're basically all but charged with conspiracy. The only reason they weren't is because the special counsel didn't think they could put a dollar amount on it to meet the legal definition. Russia had a highly coordinate effort to influence the election, and there are multiple ongoing cases that were redacted in the report. Trump himself would likely be found guilty of obstruction if Barr wasn't shielding him.

 

But yeah, a nothing burger. For someone who claims to be about the truth you sure don't seem to actually care about it.

It was a nothing burger, but the Democrats did get the cold war they wanted.

Either they were charged, or they weren't. This isn't horseshoes where close to the stake matters.

1 hour ago, knapplc said:

It's just that, consistently, there are people who come here and cannot or will not do that. And when they prove they are not interested in honest discussion, I feel like they've been given more than enough chance to do otherwise.

I said that there was smoke (see above), and where there is smoke there is often fire.

My statement was that based on the above, there should be an investigation.

4 hours ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

And yet he calls the Russian investigation a witch hunt. You’d think if he believes the Biden conspiracy theory he’d be able to stretch his imagination at least as much for the other. 

Two plus years... and it was a big fat nothingburger.

Quote

 

Some hard questions should be answered by Biden as he runs for president in 2020. Was it appropriate for your son and his firm to cash in on Ukraine while you served as point man for Ukraine policy? What work was performed for the money Hunter Biden’s firm received? Did you know about the Burisma probe? And when it was publicly announced that your son worked for Burisma, should you have recused yourself from leveraging a U.S. policy to pressure the prosecutor who very publicly pursued Burisma?

 

Joe Biden and his son Hunter may have leveraged the [2014] Maidan coup and war in East Ukraine to strike lucrative oil fracking deals in East Ukraine, along with a John Kerry family friend. Limassol, Cyprus based energy firm Burisma Holdings, collected large energy contracts in the East of Ukraine, with Hunter Biden, Devon Archer and oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskyi, closely tied to the energy production company, which pushed for fracking exploration on land owned by East Ukrainian residents.

 

11 hours ago, mrandyk said:

Do you frequent this website? Because you shouldn't.

No, but I had seen the Hillary comeback story elsewhere.

1 minute ago, ZRod said:

I have to believe these were off the cuff, sarcastic, comments like shooting someone on 5th Ave. 

So in other words... a routine communication.

1 hour ago, Nebfanatic said:

Source?

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/04/ukrainian-prosecutors-why-doesnt-the-u-s-dept-of-justice-want-our-evidence-on-democrats.html

1 hour ago, knapplc said:

Just like he knows Shapiro is on YouTube but claims not to know who he is.

 

It's another attempt to distract from Trump's scandals.

1) I honestly did not know who Ben Shapiro was.

2) Trump is an orange anal wart, he needs to be sent away.

24 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

Yeah it's so weird...instead of actually researching they just take whatever news says to them.  It's so ignorant.

They watch One America News.