Beck Vs Watson

[Landlord]

All I'm saying is that I don't think you can say either way, definitively, how hypothetically good he was. He completed like 75% of his passes against non-con his junior year, seems pretty accurate to me. Was also the son of two professional athletes wasn't he? Ran a 4.6 40...but just had bad luck with injuries that totally shaped the outcome of his athletic career. I'm not saying he WOULD HAVE been a fantastic player, only that I don't think it's fair to say that he was a lousy player. Because of that elbow, we don't know the player he truly was...an injury like that would turn Zac Taylor, Tommie Frazier, Turner Gill or anyone else that we consider great into "lousy players" if they went through it.

:blink:

You cannot be serious. Show me anywhere, ever, where I've said that.

Let me rephrase. I don't think it's fair to say he was average, that he "not sucked", that he was failed by his genetics or that he was incapable of being hyper-accurate.

 

[knapplc]

I've said he's not an NFL quarterback. I've shown that his stats in the only year he started were, by any stretch of the imagination, pedestrian. It's pretty easy to look at the prototypical NFL quarterback and see a certain height that is considered "necessary," or, failing that, a certain level of hyper-accuracy - neither of which we've ever seen from Zac Lee.

We don't know that he's not hyper-accurate in the same way that we don't know that unicorns don't exist. We've never seen proof of it - but that doesn't mean that it's real.

Let's rephrase, since that's de riguer all of a sudden - show me any proof, at all, that Zac Lee was an NFL-caliber quarterback. Anything. At all.

PS - Zac, if you ever read this, I'm sorry. It hurts to have this discussion. You've always been my boy.

 

[zoogs]

Well, this is getting a little out of my depth, since all I can rely on are the posted opinions of other folk about Lee. I'm no talent evaluator myself.

Is it possible that the people who saw Zac throw in practice in North Stadium fell in love with him and judged his abilities beyond reality? Yeah, I am sure this happens all the time. They also might've been spot on about his throwing ability, before he wrecked his arm. I mean, remember also who he was being compared to. Beau Davis, Brian Hildebrand, Sam Keller, Zac Taylor, Ganz, etc, etc. Of that list only Keller offered a downfield arm.

Since I'm not the original source of any of these arguments re: Lee, I can't really go toe-to-toe at this level and say, "Hey, remember those days in practice?". Maybe one of those people can chime in here.

I agree with you that because Lee had about a two-game window before he got hurt, there isn't much visible track record to refer to. So as I said initially, it's hard to really know. Well, impossible, really.

Although it seems that the bulk of your angle here, knapp, is "I've met the guy, he's not his listed 6'1." Which may be true without discounting his arm. Or I mean, I dunno, have you had your height measured lately? Maybe you're a towering stud and you just haven't realized.

 

[knapplc]

No, his height is only part of the story. The other part of the story is that we have no in-game evidence to show that Lee was ever going to be a star. He did well against the Sun Belt. He did mediocre against everyone else. Yes, he was hurt. But he never had that "Hey, wow!" moment.

And I was able to watch Zac in practice more than once. He did fine. But he didn't knock anyone's socks off.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

As I remember the myth, Zac Lee looked like a worthy successor to Joe Ganz, even if he was a notch below. That was based on his high school ball, his dad's NFL pedigree and his reputation for giving good practice. He was a passer who could run a little, and that was the transitional offense we had back then.

There was never a time on the actual playing field when a healthy Zac Lee looked like a better-than-average NCAA quarterback. The word was that the Zac Lee from practice didn't hold up under game day pressure as well. Realizing his limitations, Watson scaled back the offense and put Zac in caretaker mode, which seemed to fit him better.

In 2010 when the still-healthy Taylor Martinez wasn't able to get Nebraska going against Texas in our most important game ever, Bo and/or Watson sent Lee in, and employing the caretaker offense Lee was able to drive the Huskers down and score a field goal. When Taylor got injured two games later, we were told Zac Lee was banged up, too. Lee admitted to only part of the injury and claimed he was ready to go in and do whatever he could. Meanwhile, Taylor Martinez is visibly hobbled, making a bad injury worse, and teams no longer concerned with his breakaway speed are able to fluster him, taking a confident freshman and turning him skittish. A couple of those games it actually looked cruel to ask Taylor to keep playing on a serious injury that was getting worse, when his limited abilities weren't returning a dividend. Forgetting Cody Green - which was apparently easy to do - people were asking "how bad IS Zac Lee injured?" And as I recall Lee replied as diplomatically as he could that he felt good enough to play, but he respected the coaches' decision. The doghouse rumors I heard came from local insiders without agendas: Bo simply didn't want Zac Lee playing at any cost.

I loved the 2010 Taylor, and didn't really want to see Zac Lee back in the game, but I think the decision not to rest Taylor hurt Taylor and hurt the team, all the way into the next season.

 

[junior4949]

Watson couldn't develop QBs but Beck can? Martinez's development came at the hands of an outsider that isn't even affiliated with UNL, so I'm not sure how anyone can claim Beck developed Martinez. Then, we have to look deeper. Beck has done an amazing job at developing Turner and Carnes now hasn't he? I'd be willing to bet both were just as polished if not more so than Cody Green who Watson gets heat for not developing. I'm not a Watson apologist either, but he takes a lot of crap that he really doesn't deserve. A lot of coordinators take crap they don't necessarily deserve. How great has Texas been since firing their OC a few years back? Look at all the crap Monte Kiffin is taking this year.

 

[Blackshirt96]

I feel like you could turn this whole thread into a than you "Thank Rich Fischer" thread. The ex golf pro has made the most progress with a group of players then I have seen is a long time. They don't drop the ball much, run good routes & block very well. Those were 3 thinks we did very poolry under Watson/Gill.

 

[Mierin]

Watson couldn't develop QBs but Beck can? Martinez's development came at the hands of an outsider that isn't even affiliated with UNL, so I'm not sure how anyone can claim Beck developed Martinez.

Martinez got help from a quarterback coach during the offseason when Beck wasn't allowed to have contact with him. It's a big stretch to go from "Martinez got good outside help during the offseason" to "Martinez learned everything he knows from an outsider and nothing from Beck." To assume Beck had no involvement in his development is silly.

 

[Scratchtown]

Should have just hired Scott Frost.

 

[Saint Boseph]

Beck, and it isn't even close. Count me as the happiest Husker around the day Watson was let go. Couldn't stand the guy's inability to develop a QB. His game plan never changed, his offenses never evolved or improved. The OP was right about in game adjustments, they were non existent for Watson. Beck will find something that works, and stick with it. Watson never found anything that really worked for a long period of time, and he still stuck with it. I was only amazed that we stuck with Watson for so long. We threw away some great defenses and a Conference Championship or two on the fact that our offense couldn't produce even a mere 20 or 17 point game. You can say what you want about Watson's numbers, some years they were somewhat impressive, but I'll take results. The results say Nebraska has a top 5 rushing team in the country, and a very high scoring average. Two things that win football games....running the ball well, and scoring points. By points, I mean touchdowns, not Watson and his Field Goal offense.

Wait...so you're saying he was unable to develop a quarterback, even though the only quarterback he had years to develop was Joe Ganz who rewrote the record books?

So you're saying his offenses never evolved even though we went from pure west coats to west coast with spread elements to a zone read spread attack?

so you're saying that Watson was awful because he couldn't get the numbers, then you're saying that forget the numbers (since they seem to be able to favor Watson), you want results. Which is it?

Here's those 20 or 17 point games you were talking about:

Western Michigan - 47

San Jose State - 35

New Mexico State - 38

Virginia Tech - 30

Missouri - 17

Texas Tech - 31

Iowa State - 35

Baylor - 32

Oklahoma - 28

Kansas - 45

Kansas State - 56

Colorado - 40

Clemson - 26

Florida Atlantic - 49

Arkansas State - 38

Louisiana-Lafayette - 56

Missouri - 27

Baylor - 20

Kansas - 31

Kansas State - 17

Colorado - 28

Arizona - 33

Western Kentucky - 49

Idaho - 38

Washington - 56

SDSU - 17

Kansas State - 48

Oklahoma State - 51

Missouri - 31

Iowa State - 31

Kansas - 20

Colorado - 45

Oklahoma - 20

For the record, I'm no Shawn Watson apologist (since people will think so). I love Beck and think he's doing a much better job; I just think your arguments are lousy, and Watson wasn't the JV third-stringer you make him out to be.

^^This is spot on. I'm no Watson apologist either. I am satisfied with Beck right now, but don't underestimate the fact that Beck has way more weapons than Watson ever did. Yeah Watson probably should have left after 2010 but I couldn't believe the vitriol being thrown Watson's way after that season. The guy was a class A gentleman and I loved hearing his interviews. Just one of those good guys you root for to do good (like Doc Sadler) but just ultimately didn't produce enough results. He's no slouch as an OC by any means. Him and Bridgewater are doing well at Louisville.

 

[Landlord]

As I remember the myth, Zac Lee looked like a worthy successor to Joe Ganz, even if he was a notch below. That was based on his high school ball, his dad's NFL pedigree and his reputation for giving good practice. He was a passer who could run a little, and that was the transitional offense we had back then. There was never a time on the actual playing field when a healthy Zac Lee looked like a better-than-average NCAA quarterback. The word was that the Zac Lee from practice didn't hold up under game day pressure as well. Realizing his limitations, Watson scaled back the offense and put Zac in caretaker mode, which seemed to fit him better. In 2010 when the still-healthy Taylor Martinez wasn't able to get Nebraska going against Texas in our most important game ever, Bo and/or Watson sent Lee in, and employing the caretaker offense Lee was able to drive the Huskers down and score a field goal. When Taylor got injured two games later, we were told Zac Lee was banged up, too. Lee admitted to only part of the injury and claimed he was ready to go in and do whatever he could. Meanwhile, Taylor Martinez is visibly hobbled, making a bad injury worse, and teams no longer concerned with his breakaway speed are able to fluster him, taking a confident freshman and turning him skittish. A couple of those games it actually looked cruel to ask Taylor to keep playing on a serious injury that was getting worse, when his limited abilities weren't returning a dividend. Forgetting Cody Green - which was apparently easy to do - people were asking "how bad IS Zac Lee injured?" And as I recall Lee replied as diplomatically as he could that he felt good enough to play, but he respected the coaches' decision. The doghouse rumors I heard came from local insiders without agendas: Bo simply didn't want Zac Lee playing at any cost. I loved the 2010 Taylor, and didn't really want to see Zac Lee back in the game, but I think the decision not to rest Taylor hurt Taylor and hurt the team, all the way into the next season.

A few points of distinction...

1. Zac looked quite better-than-average in his first two games of 2009.

2. Watson only scaled back the offense at Bo's command begrudgingly, and it wasn't even close to only because of Zac.

3. The dude had a torn labrum.

4. From what I heard of "insider" reports, he was reinjured in 2010, and shouldn't have even been suited up week to week.

 

[HuskerNationNick]

A few points of distinction...

1. Zac looked quite better-than-average in his first two games of 2009.

2. Watson only scaled back the offense at Bo's command begrudgingly, and it wasn't even close to only because of Zac.

3. The dude had a torn labrum.

4. From what I heard of "insider" reports, he was reinjured in 2010, and shouldn't have even been suited up week to week.

I heard that as well, that he shouldn't even be seeing the field with his injury, and when he was in, he did quite well. Over performed for his injury if you ask me. To this day, I still think we should have started Lee against Texas. I stated this way before the game to my girlfriend. I have always like Lee, and what he was capable of. Just sad he didn't have the career he could have had.

 

[The Dude]

So we all agree Beck is a huge upgrade over Watson?

 

['SkersRule]

Watson couldn't develop QBs but Beck can? Martinez's development came at the hands of an outsider that isn't even affiliated with UNL, so I'm not sure how anyone can claim Beck developed Martinez.

Martinez got help from a quarterback coach during the offseason when Beck wasn't allowed to have contact with him. It's a big stretch to go from "Martinez got good outside help during the offseason" to "Martinez learned everything he knows from an outsider and nothing from Beck." To assume Beck had no involvement in his development is silly.

The last thing the "I hate Taylor Martinez" crowd needs is for you to bring relevant facts into the discussion.