Children and immigration reform

walksalone said:
BigRedBuster said:
This entire issue is a human tragedy. It's much more than just "those horrible illegals crossing the border without permission".

I had read an article about how horrible conditions are with violence in countries like Honduras. Interestingly, shortly after that, I was at a restaurant and my waiter ended up being from Honduras. He was around 20 and claims his family came here when he was very young. He told me how horrible it is down there for his relatives still there. Basically, the country is ran by two gangs. Let's say the US is ran by the Crips and Bloods. You wear the wrong color? You're dead. You do slightly the wrong thing and piss someone off??? You're dead.

LINK

Most of these kids coming across aren't Mexican. They are from countries further south where conditions are so bad families are willing to send their children north hoping to actually save their lives. This is exacerbated by false information being filtered down there by human traffickers on how easy the trip is and how wonderful life is once the kids are here.

For a long time, I have been an advocate of putting more military on the Mexican border to ensure the building civil war in Mexico doesn't spill over the border more than it already has. However, with these kids, it is an almost guaranteed death sentence if we either send them back or block them from coming across once they get to the border and leave them in the hands of the drug cartels.

We must start with a major information campaign in the countries these kids are coming from. Families have to have correct information as to what they are sending their kids into. Helping countries like Honduras get control of the violence in their countries might help. Heck, forget about violence in Syria...let's concentrate on something closer to home.

What to do with kids once they are here? We have to speed up the process they go through to figure out who they are and where they are going. If they have family in the US, we must quickly unite them. If they don't, then we must do something with them that is humane and help them get a better start on life. Very small children? Adopt them out to families wanting to adopt. A large number of couples go to countries like Russia, Indonesia, China...etc. to adopt kids. Have them adopt these kids. Older kids? Put them into something like a foster home.

None of this is a perfect fix. I'm sure someone can pick apart problems with my ideas. However, herding them into what are basically concentration camps long term is both wrong and is going to cause more problems down the road.

Sending them back for many is a death sentence.
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Very good post, first and foremost...

.But what about the kids that are already here? I'm sick of us having to take care of everyone else, when we can't even take care of our own? Sorry if that makes me sound cold and callous, but that's it. The kids in the inner cities, reservations, they're just as f*cked as the kids coming across the border, but they've taken a back seat to those who are being sent here.
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Walks....

I understand what you are saying. I do feel sorry for kids who grow up in that cesspool of many inner cities. They have major issues that they face.

The reason why this is being debated right now is because these kids are flooding across the border and they are (because of nothing better to do with them right now) they are being sent to glorified concentration camps to be taken care of. That is something that absolutely can not be a long term solution. It obviously is a very temporary thing. The laws also say (correct me if I'm wrong) but mot should be deported. However, to me, that is morally wrong if we are sending these kids back to a death sentence. They are, right now, totally alone in the world through no fault of their own other than trying to survive.

Now, this would be similar to if kids from inner city Detroit all of a sudden started flooding out of the city looking for a better life and willing to do what it takes to get to it. I think Americans would have the same attitude that they do with these central American kids. If sending them back to the city is a death sentence, then there would be a movement to not send them back.

I am interested in your opinions of what to do with inner cities. It is a major problem. However, I believe the problem lies in the same issues as to why these kids are leaving Honduras. It's the drug industry that is destroying their lives. Stop that and a lot of these problems go away. Problem is, we have been trying to do that for decades and have failed miserably.

 
BigRedBuster said:
This entire issue is a human tragedy. It's much more than just "those horrible illegals crossing the border without permission".

I had read an article about how horrible conditions are with violence in countries like Honduras. Interestingly, shortly after that, I was at a restaurant and my waiter ended up being from Honduras. He was around 20 and claims his family came here when he was very young. He told me how horrible it is down there for his relatives still there. Basically, the country is ran by two gangs. Let's say the US is ran by the Crips and Bloods. You wear the wrong color? You're dead. You do slightly the wrong thing and piss someone off??? You're dead.

LINK

Most of these kids coming across aren't Mexican. They are from countries further south where conditions are so bad families are willing to send their children north hoping to actually save their lives. This is exacerbated by false information being filtered down there by human traffickers on how easy the trip is and how wonderful life is once the kids are here.

For a long time, I have been an advocate of putting more military on the Mexican border to ensure the building civil war in Mexico doesn't spill over the border more than it already has. However, with these kids, it is an almost guaranteed death sentence if we either send them back or block them from coming across once they get to the border and leave them in the hands of the drug cartels.

We must start with a major information campaign in the countries these kids are coming from. Families have to have correct information as to what they are sending their kids into. Helping countries like Honduras get control of the violence in their countries might help. Heck, forget about violence in Syria...let's concentrate on something closer to home.

What to do with kids once they are here? We have to speed up the process they go through to figure out who they are and where they are going. If they have family in the US, we must quickly unite them. If they don't, then we must do something with them that is humane and help them get a better start on life. Very small children? Adopt them out to families wanting to adopt. A large number of couples go to countries like Russia, Indonesia, China...etc. to adopt kids. Have them adopt these kids. Older kids? Put them into something like a foster home.

None of this is a perfect fix. I'm sure someone can pick apart problems with my ideas. However, herding them into what are basically concentration camps long term is both wrong and is going to cause more problems down the road.

Sending them back for many is a death sentence.
Click to expand...
Love this. +1

One of my girlfriend's best friends is an illegal immigrant from Mexico. She is deaf in one ear from when a grenade went off next to her head when she was young. She was recently able to alter her status somehow (I believe thanks to Obama), but she has always worked, always paid taxes, and even went to school on her own dime with no possibility of receiving any form of aid.

I think our nation has a responsibility here. I would like to see the statistics to be sure, but I would be willing to wager 90 cents out of ever drug dollar is made by drugs that are shipped to and used in the United States. Assuming we can erase that as a factor, we are still Americans, and if that means a damn thing in the world, this is our moment. The short answer to the crisis is this: we do whatever it takes, spend however much money, to protect these people. f#*k the politics. If we have 4 trillion dollars to flush down an Iraqi toilet, we can set up something for refugee children.

A brief aside on the drug issue: if anyone can explain to me in clear, cogent terms how making any drug illegal has ever 1) totally suppressed its use or 2) harmed drug cartels, I'll be willing to hear them out, but I'm doubtful this can be shown. Also, if memory serves we are supposedly called the land of the free. I don't think heroin should be sold on Wal-Mart shelves, but I do believe that if a person has an addiction, we would be better served giving the drug away for free with a clean needle (both morally and economically) than resorting to the failed War on Drugs policies which have squandered 1 trillion dollars of our nation's wealth on these last fifty-sixty years while producing zero net reduction in drug use.

 
Husker_x said:
BigRedBuster said:
This entire issue is a human tragedy. It's much more than just "those horrible illegals crossing the border without permission".

I had read an article about how horrible conditions are with violence in countries like Honduras. Interestingly, shortly after that, I was at a restaurant and my waiter ended up being from Honduras. He was around 20 and claims his family came here when he was very young. He told me how horrible it is down there for his relatives still there. Basically, the country is ran by two gangs. Let's say the US is ran by the Crips and Bloods. You wear the wrong color? You're dead. You do slightly the wrong thing and piss someone off??? You're dead.

LINK

Most of these kids coming across aren't Mexican. They are from countries further south where conditions are so bad families are willing to send their children north hoping to actually save their lives. This is exacerbated by false information being filtered down there by human traffickers on how easy the trip is and how wonderful life is once the kids are here.

For a long time, I have been an advocate of putting more military on the Mexican border to ensure the building civil war in Mexico doesn't spill over the border more than it already has. However, with these kids, it is an almost guaranteed death sentence if we either send them back or block them from coming across once they get to the border and leave them in the hands of the drug cartels.

We must start with a major information campaign in the countries these kids are coming from. Families have to have correct information as to what they are sending their kids into. Helping countries like Honduras get control of the violence in their countries might help. Heck, forget about violence in Syria...let's concentrate on something closer to home.

What to do with kids once they are here? We have to speed up the process they go through to figure out who they are and where they are going. If they have family in the US, we must quickly unite them. If they don't, then we must do something with them that is humane and help them get a better start on life. Very small children? Adopt them out to families wanting to adopt. A large number of couples go to countries like Russia, Indonesia, China...etc. to adopt kids. Have them adopt these kids. Older kids? Put them into something like a foster home.

None of this is a perfect fix. I'm sure someone can pick apart problems with my ideas. However, herding them into what are basically concentration camps long term is both wrong and is going to cause more problems down the road.

Sending them back for many is a death sentence.
Click to expand...
Love this. +1

One of my girlfriend's best friends is an illegal immigrant from Mexico. She is deaf in one ear from when a grenade went off next to her head when she was young. She was recently able to alter her status somehow (I believe thanks to Obama), but she has always worked, always paid taxes, and even went to school on her own dime with no possibility of receiving any form of aid.

I think our nation has a responsibility here. I would like to see the statistics to be sure, but I would be willing to wager 90 cents out of ever drug dollar is made by drugs that are shipped to and used in the United States. Assuming we can erase that as a factor, we are still Americans, and if that means a damn thing in the world, this is our moment. The short answer to the crisis is this: we do whatever it takes, spend however much money, to protect these people. f#*k the politics. If we have 4 trillion dollars to flush down an Iraqi toilet, we can set up something for refugee children.

A brief aside on the drug issue: if anyone can explain to me in clear, cogent terms how making any drug illegal has ever 1) totally suppressed its use or 2) harmed drug cartels, I'll be willing to hear them out, but I'm doubtful this can be shown. Also, if memory serves we are supposedly called the land of the free. I don't think heroin should be sold on Wal-Mart shelves, but I do believe that if a person has an addiction, we would be better served giving the drug away for free with a clean needle (both morally and economically) than resorting to the failed War on Drugs policies which have squandered 1 trillion dollars of our nation's wealth on these last fifty-sixty years while producing zero net reduction in drug use.
Click to expand...
very fair assessment. I read the attached article and I find it amazing that any of these kids made it here. What they have gone through to get here is unbelievable. You know, we fight wars off in Iraq yet we have "terrorist" organizations just to the south - the drug cartels who are murdering, terrorizing innocents. As you say, Husker X, the war on drug hasn't accomplished much - and the more libertarian view of liberalizing our drug laws may be the only realistic path forward. Take the power away from the cartels. If we want to fight a real war, then send our troops into Mexico and root out the cartels in a "surge" (where did we hear that phrase before) and tell the Mexican govt to cooperate or get out of the way as this is in our vital national interests. In the meantime, we have to take care of these kids. If parents in Central Amer put them on trains, buses, I wonder how many would take the kids back? Most likely the only 'solution' for these kids' future is here in the USA. I do think we need to build a fence and placing more troops on the boarder to keep the cartels from using innocents as a diversion or as carriers. Comprehensive immigration reform, will need to also involve our relationships with the countries to the south - incentives, etc to stop or to manage the flow (of migrant workers) coming to the USA.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/23/how-mexico-s-cartels-are-behind-the-border-kid-crisis.html

 
BigRedBuster said:
Walks....

I understand what you are saying. I do feel sorry for kids who grow up in that cesspool of many inner cities. They have major issues that they face.

The reason why this is being debated right now is because these kids are flooding across the border and they are (because of nothing better to do with them right now) they are being sent to glorified concentration camps to be taken care of. That is something that absolutely can not be a long term solution. It obviously is a very temporary thing. The laws also say (correct me if I'm wrong) but mot should be deported. However, to me, that is morally wrong if we are sending these kids back to a death sentence. They are, right now, totally alone in the world through no fault of their own other than trying to survive.

Now, this would be similar to if kids from inner city Detroit all of a sudden started flooding out of the city looking for a better life and willing to do what it takes to get to it. I think Americans would have the same attitude that they do with these central American kids. If sending them back to the city is a death sentence, then there would be a movement to not send them back.

I am interested in your opinions of what to do with inner cities. It is a major problem. However, I believe the problem lies in the same issues as to why these kids are leaving Honduras. It's the drug industry that is destroying their lives. Stop that and a lot of these problems go away. Problem is, we have been trying to do that for decades and have failed miserably.
Click to expand...
I think this is something that should have been handled better years ago. They should have been more concerned about our borders and the streams of people crossing into this country illegally. They either need to just let the kids cross, which would set a horrible precedent, or let the world know that we are closing our borders completely, and even though that's virtually impossible to do, make an attempt to enforce it.

First thing we need to do is stop giving money to other countries, and worry about our own. I guess the only real thing I can think of is something that will keep kids off of the streets and away from influences that will either get them killed or put in jail. Because in the inner cities, today's middle schooler is tomorrow's gang banger.

 
walksalone said:
BigRedBuster said:
Walks....

I understand what you are saying. I do feel sorry for kids who grow up in that cesspool of many inner cities. They have major issues that they face.

The reason why this is being debated right now is because these kids are flooding across the border and they are (because of nothing better to do with them right now) they are being sent to glorified concentration camps to be taken care of. That is something that absolutely can not be a long term solution. It obviously is a very temporary thing. The laws also say (correct me if I'm wrong) but mot should be deported. However, to me, that is morally wrong if we are sending these kids back to a death sentence. They are, right now, totally alone in the world through no fault of their own other than trying to survive.

Now, this would be similar to if kids from inner city Detroit all of a sudden started flooding out of the city looking for a better life and willing to do what it takes to get to it. I think Americans would have the same attitude that they do with these central American kids. If sending them back to the city is a death sentence, then there would be a movement to not send them back.

I am interested in your opinions of what to do with inner cities. It is a major problem. However, I believe the problem lies in the same issues as to why these kids are leaving Honduras. It's the drug industry that is destroying their lives. Stop that and a lot of these problems go away. Problem is, we have been trying to do that for decades and have failed miserably.
Click to expand...
I think this is something that should have been handled better years ago. They should have been more concerned about our borders and the streams of people crossing into this country illegally. They either need to just let the kids cross, which would set a horrible precedent, or let the world know that we are closing our borders completely, and even though that's virtually impossible to do, make an attempt to enforce it.

First thing we need to do is stop giving money to other countries, and worry about our own. I guess the only real thing I can think of is something that will keep kids off of the streets and away from influences that will either get them killed or put in jail. Because in the inner cities, today's middle schooler is tomorrow's gang banger.
Click to expand...
Like what?

 
Of course we need to give money to other countries. It's in our national character for one. It's part and parcel of being a modern, humane Western country for two. And a lot of people will die of starvation, thirst, and disease if we don't.

 
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Anti-government-citizen-militia-groups-want-to-5604303.php

Davis, who lives near San Antonio, said the militia group is in preliminary stages of recruiting and training volunteers and will move to Laredo "in a few weeks" when they have "enough trained manpower" but declined to estimate a number.

The group will secure the border in a "legal and lawful manner," Davis said. However, a 21-minute YouTube video of Davis, which was first reported by the McAllen Monitor, suggests otherwise.

"How?" Davis asked on the video. "You see an illegal. You point your gun dead at him, right between his eyes, and you say, 'Get back across the border or you will be shot.'"

Davis said he removed the video Monday because it was taken out of context "by a newspaper that supports amnesty."
Click to expand...
 
Junior said:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Anti-government-citizen-militia-groups-want-to-5604303.php

Davis, who lives near San Antonio, said the militia group is in preliminary stages of recruiting and training volunteers and will move to Laredo "in a few weeks" when they have "enough trained manpower" but declined to estimate a number.

The group will secure the border in a "legal and lawful manner," Davis said. However, a 21-minute YouTube video of Davis, which was first reported by the McAllen Monitor, suggests otherwise.

"How?" Davis asked on the video. "You see an illegal. You point your gun dead at him, right between his eyes, and you say, 'Get back across the border or you will be shot.'"

Davis said he removed the video Monday because it was taken out of context "by a newspaper that supports amnesty."
Click to expand...
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Despicable. I want to see what happens when a group of the migrants has the audacity to keep on walking. Last I checked, shooting them is still murder.

 
People would really benefit educating themselves on the countries/governments most of these migrants are seeking refuge from. Maybe then they would understand and allow these people entrance into a country where they don't have to live in constant fear. Instead, they are escaping from a country where they lived in fear to a country who is sending the message "go home or you'll be shot" because people fear these migrants are "bringing diseases" (http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2014/07/11/3456878/are-central-american-child-refugees-bringing-in-diseases/) even though that is unlikely (http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20140712-young-migrants-unlikely-to-bring-diseases-to-u.s.-experts-say.ece) and will "take our jobs" (http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-aliens-taking-u-s-jobs) even though that isn't entirely true, and really the only native group that faces a significant threat from immigrants are poor and less-educated (and probably the same people making a big todo about this issue) people (http://cis.org/illegalImmigration-employment)

 
BigRedBuster said:
walksalone said:
BigRedBuster said:
Walks....

I understand what you are saying. I do feel sorry for kids who grow up in that cesspool of many inner cities. They have major issues that they face.

The reason why this is being debated right now is because these kids are flooding across the border and they are (because of nothing better to do with them right now) they are being sent to glorified concentration camps to be taken care of. That is something that absolutely can not be a long term solution. It obviously is a very temporary thing. The laws also say (correct me if I'm wrong) but mot should be deported. However, to me, that is morally wrong if we are sending these kids back to a death sentence. They are, right now, totally alone in the world through no fault of their own other than trying to survive.

Now, this would be similar to if kids from inner city Detroit all of a sudden started flooding out of the city looking for a better life and willing to do what it takes to get to it. I think Americans would have the same attitude that they do with these central American kids. If sending them back to the city is a death sentence, then there would be a movement to not send them back.

I am interested in your opinions of what to do with inner cities. It is a major problem. However, I believe the problem lies in the same issues as to why these kids are leaving Honduras. It's the drug industry that is destroying their lives. Stop that and a lot of these problems go away. Problem is, we have been trying to do that for decades and have failed miserably.
Click to expand...
I think this is something that should have been handled better years ago. They should have been more concerned about our borders and the streams of people crossing into this country illegally. They either need to just let the kids cross, which would set a horrible precedent, or let the world know that we are closing our borders completely, and even though that's virtually impossible to do, make an attempt to enforce it.

First thing we need to do is stop giving money to other countries, and worry about our own. I guess the only real thing I can think of is something that will keep kids off of the streets and away from influences that will either get them killed or put in jail. Because in the inner cities, today's middle schooler is tomorrow's gang banger.
Click to expand...
Like what?
Click to expand...
After school programs for starters. Maybe a music program. Anything that keeps kids from those elements that will lead them down the wrong path.

 
Embrace Obama's Border Security Bill say Christopher Ruddy - the editor of Newsmax

A major conservative opinion driver agreeing wt and supporting Obama on this issue:

http://www.newsmax.com/Ruddy/immigration-border-obama-trafficking/2014/07/14/id/582638/

The new Obama law changes the existing William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, a 2008 statute that says minors who are not from Mexico or Canada are entitled to legal proceedings before they are deported.

Surprisingly, Obama has agreed this is not a good idea and wants to scrap it. He wants speedy deportations.

He is also asking for $400 million to secure the border and pay for additional border agents, as many have been moved to detention centers and other cities to deal with the humanitarian crisis.

Senate Democrats are not so happy with Obama’s bill, which will increase deportations and end the crisis. Congressional Republicans don’t like its $3.7 billion price tab.

What should they do? Compromise.


 
Last edited by a moderator:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Matthew 19:14 - Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

I love how we've inscribed these words on the Statue of Liberty, and how the Conservatives are all about Jesus, except when any of that becomes in any way inconvenient for them.

"Deeply held beliefs" indeed.
default_rolleyes.gif


 
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