Coaching or Talent - which is more responsible

Nebraska had a travel roster of 79 players. Of that, there were 24 walkons, and 9 true freshman. Let that sink in a bit. Years of crappy recruiting has left Riley and staff in quit a hole talent wise. That is nearly 2 full classes of missing talent. Callahan at least left us some talent to work with, 408 not only stole from the university , while pretending to lead the program, but was derelict while doing it. We are in nearly the same shape as when we came out of the Solich years. Riley has a long hard road ahead, he may work miracles, but if not, he damn sure needs our patience.
"We lost, because of Pelini's recruiting" is a gross oversimplification of this post.
I was more alluding to the overall thread. Posters have compared our on hand talent to 2004. You couldn't find a writer in the state who would agree with that.
2015 Nebraska more resembles 2004 Nebraska than 2008 Nebraska. While the cupboard is not bare, it is very thin in spots. Unnecessarily, and that's a Pelini problem.
2008 vs 2015. Who are you picking? Me:

QB - 2015

RB - push

OL - 2015

WR - 2015

TE - 2015

DL - 2008 (because of Suh, and depth. Our ends were just ok)

LB (injuries go push)

CB - 2008 by a mile

S - 2015 (Gerry is better than Asante or O'hanlon)
Armstrong over Ganz? 2008

Lucky and Helu are a push with Newby and Cross? 2008

OL is a push

WR 2015

TE is 2008

DL is 2008

LB push

CB 2008

S 2015
QB - By years end, Armstrong will be much, much better than Ganz.

RB - Lucky didn't do much as a RB, and Hely didn't flourish until we changed offenses.

OL - Statistically, this OL is better at running and pass pro.

TE - Cethan Carter alone is better than any TE we had in 2008. Our best in '08 was... Dreu Young?
According to recruiting rankings 2004-2007 was better than 2012-2014. So 2008 had more talent than 2015.
Correct. That D was stacked. Offense struggled for the 1st half of the year, before finding a niche. Still, as I said above, both teams are much, much more talented than 2004.
So if the 2008 team has more talent based on recruiting rankings than the 2015 team, how is 2015 more talented?
I never said it was. I said it was much, much better than 2004. I introduced the comparison between 2008 and 2015 to show that it wasn't a landslide that 2008 was better in every category.
2015 Nebraska more resembles 2004 Nebraska than 2008 Nebraska. While the cupboard is not bare, it is very thin in spots. Unnecessarily, and that's a Pelini problem.
2008 vs 2015. Who are you picking? Me:

QB - 2015

RB - push

OL - 2015

WR - 2015

TE - 2015

DL - 2008 (because of Suh, and depth. Our ends were just ok)

LB (injuries go push)

CB - 2008 by a mile

S - 2015 (Gerry is better than Asante or O'hanlon)

We have been discussing talent this entire thread. How were you not at this particular point?

 
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QB - By years end, Armstrong will be much, much better than Ganz.

RB - Lucky didn't do much as a RB, and Hely didn't flourish until we changed offenses.

OL - Statistically, this OL is better at running and pass pro.

TE - Cethan Carter alone is better than any TE we had in 2008. Our best in '08 was... Dreu Young?
Mike McNeill was the TE that year I believe. The 2008 OL has 3 guys that made NFL rosters,
Tommy Armstrong is on pace for 3891 yards. Ganz was 3568 in his one year starting.

Ganz finished 25/11 TD/INT. Armstrong is on 9-4 right now.

Armstrong might be better but I am not sure it will be much, much better
McNeill was the TE in 2008, 2008 McNeill was better than 2015 Cethan Carter, any day.

I do not get the love for Cethan Carter. He has 17 career catches for 232 yards and 1 TD over 17 games. Meh.

 
QB - By years end, Armstrong will be much, much better than Ganz.

RB - Lucky didn't do much as a RB, and Hely didn't flourish until we changed offenses.

OL - Statistically, this OL is better at running and pass pro.

TE - Cethan Carter alone is better than any TE we had in 2008. Our best in '08 was... Dreu Young?
Mike McNeill was the TE that year I believe. The 2008 OL has 3 guys that made NFL rosters,
Tommy Armstrong is on pace for 3891 yards. Ganz was 3568 in his one year starting.

Ganz finished 25/11 TD/INT. Armstrong is on 9-4 right now.

Armstrong might be better but I am not sure it will be much, much better
McNeill was the TE in 2008, 2008 McNeill was better than 2015 Cethan Carter, any day.

I do not get the love for Cethan Carter. He has 17 career catches for 232 yards and 1 TD over 17 games. Meh.
He has Louisiana Speed.

 
QB - By years end, Armstrong will be much, much better than Ganz.

RB - Lucky didn't do much as a RB, and Hely didn't flourish until we changed offenses.

OL - Statistically, this OL is better at running and pass pro.

TE - Cethan Carter alone is better than any TE we had in 2008. Our best in '08 was... Dreu Young?
Mike McNeill was the TE that year I believe. The 2008 OL has 3 guys that made NFL rosters,
Tommy Armstrong is on pace for 3891 yards. Ganz was 3568 in his one year starting.

Ganz finished 25/11 TD/INT. Armstrong is on 9-4 right now.

Armstrong might be better but I am not sure it will be much, much better
McNeill was the TE in 2008, 2008 McNeill was better than 2015 Cethan Carter, any day.

I do not get the love for Cethan Carter. He has 17 career catches for 232 yards and 1 TD over 17 games. Meh.
You're right. I missed him on the Huskermax stats page. I was thinking he was injured in '08 for some reason. He was damn good.

 
We have been discussing talent this entire thread. How were you not at this particular point?
Because if you look at the threaded quotes, it was a progression of that particular discussion? I mentioned the fact that people said we had 2004 talent. I said it was closer to 2008, and offered the comparison to show that they weren't far off.

 
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We have been discussing talent this entire thread. How were you not at this particular point?
Because if you look at the threaded quotes, it was a progression of that particular discussion? I mentioned the fact that people said we had 2004 talent. I said it was closer to 2008, and offered the comparison to show that they weren't far off.
But you went 5-2-2 in favor of 2015 being more talented than 2008

 
We have been discussing talent this entire thread. How were you not at this particular point?
Because if you look at the threaded quotes, it was a progression of that particular discussion? I mentioned the fact that people said we had 2004 talent. I said it was closer to 2008, and offered the comparison to show that they weren't far off.
But you went 5-2-2 in favor of 2015 being more talented than 2008
I forgot about McNeil, so go 4-3-2. Still, that's just a position by position breakdown. Individual spots can be better in 2015 while the overall talent was better in 2015. But it's a tangent.

 
I think there is a bit of a fallacy in trying to compare why rosters from different years/eras are better/worse than one another. Everyone has to keep in mind that not all are rosters are equal, nor are the factors surrounding those rosters. Perhaps no one is outright saying this, but, some are acting like it.

One roster may have more "star" power than another, but, not all stars are created proportionately. Ndamukong Suh was a 'four star recruit,' but he ended up performing like a 5-star "should," and is one of the best defensive tackles to ever play the game. There's been a lot of research to show that stars do mean something, and there's no point trying to disregard them. But, they don't mean everything.

To go a step further, there's a million other variables that create a player. His attitude, his coaching staff, his athleticism, his ability to understand concepts... I could go on and so could many of you. Hell, the transition from 2007-2008 could be argued as a smoother one from 2014-2015. The offensive philosophies stayed relatively similar while the defense had an overhaul. This year, both sides of the football are undergoing overhaul, and we're certainly not built to play offense the way this staff would like us too.

I know this is an interesting debate to hold but I really don't think it's worth going into too deeply. I think there's "talent" on this team, but there's also several players who aren't performing up to expectations or just aren't overly talented. A lot of that, in my opinion, is scheme changes. But, I think it's fair to say this team needs some talent upgrades, needs to play up to their abilities and needs time to transition with the new schemes.

 
Speaking of a talent goldmine that just needed some good coaching, how did Bo's defense fare in 2008?

And the 1 year turnaround to 2009 was actually pretty astonishing. In the long view, with the benefit of hindsight, that probably had a lot to do with the lucky confluence of players like Suh, Hagg, Amukamara, Asante, and O'Hanlon. Without that, Bo's results probably would have been closer to solid for a while until his recruiting, assistant coaching, and everything else caught up to him.

But they got run off the field a couple times in 2008 and finished what, 50th in the country. I guess Bo was not such a good coach? That's kind of the argument being floated around right now.

 
Here's how I would rate them. Line them up, side-by-side and it gets easier.

2008 - 13
2015 - 5
Push - 4


OFFENSE
QB 12 Ganz, Joe - 2008 - QB 4 Armstrong Jr.
I 5 Lucky, Marlon - 2008 - IB 34 Newby, Terrell
LT 65 Smith, Mike - 2008 - LT 71 Lewis, Alex
LG 68 Williams, Keith - 2008 - LG 66 Utter, Dylan
C 67 Hickman, Jacob - 2015 - C 65 Reeves, Ryne
RG 70 Slauson, Matt - 2008 - RG 70 Kondolo, C.
RT 76 Murtha, Lydon - 2008 - RT 68 Gates, Nick
TE 44 McNeill, Mike - 2008 - TE 11 Carter, Cethan
X 87 Swift, Nate - 2015 - WR 1 Westerkamp, J.
Z 17 Peterson, Todd - Push - WR 87 Reilly, Brandon
R 18 Holt, Menelik - Push - WR 13 Hovey, Lane

DEFENSE
LE 98 Potter, Zach - 2008 - DE 90 McMullen, Greg
NT 93 Suh, Ndamukong - 2008 - DT 7 Collins, Maliek
DT 43 Steinkuhler, Ty - 2008 - DT 92 Williams, Kevin
RE 95 Allen, Pierre - 2008 - DE 91 Akinmoladun, F.
RC 5 West, Anthony - 2015 - CB 1B Kalu, Joshua
DB 23 Thorell, Lance - Push - CB 23 Davie, Daniel
MIKE 35 Holt, Matt - 2015 - LB 1A Rose-Ivey, M.
DB 28 Hagg, Eric - 2008 - LB 52 Banderas, Josh
LC 6 Murillo, A. - Push - LB 5 Young, Dedrick
SS 4 Asante, Larry - 2008 - S 28 Cockrell, B.
FS 33 O'Hanlon, Matt - 2015 - S 25 Gerry, Nate

 
So....






Nope. We are in agreement. I think we are as talented right now as we have been in a long time. Maybe since those first years under Bo.

I couldn't make sense of what McKewon was tryng to say either. Regardless, I would be extremey disappointed if we only managed 7 wins with these players and our schedule.



Actually, almost every expert I've heard has said Nebraska has more talent than Wisconsin. Really the question is whether Riley, Langsdorf, and Banker will better utilize that talent to result in playmakers making plays. We've got playmakers on both sides of the ball. Tommy, Pierson-El, Westerkamp are easily on the list offensively. Gerry, Banderas, Collins and Velentine on defense. There's seven right there. Let's hope this staff creates a few more.

What happened?
I know you think you're being really smart, and you're rag tag bunch that +1's every word of your stuff thinks you are clever, but I'll tell you flat out, you only sound like a Bo-Lover who's been waiting to pounce on this stuff. You almost seem happy at the possibility of the team failing just to prove you right.

So what happened, seriously? Let me tell you what happened.

Point number one I've got to make with guys like you, the sky is not falling for me. I've got hope. I like some things I've seen. So when you ask what happened as if this team is a giant failure, I think you're full of it.

We lost on a Hail Mary to what turns out to be a very good BYU team that still even had their Heisman hopeful QB at the helm for most of the game. The game was called a toss-up game by many people all off season, but then when Nebraska loses the toss up, it's Bo Lover marathon here about how terrible we are. Get real. It was one play, a fluke play, that ended up costing us a game we really had won.

Oh, and by the way, that was the first game with an entirely new coaching staff. If you're not smart enough as a football fan to understand the challenges facing a new staff, then I can't help you. If the facts don't smack you upside the head, then you're hopeless. I spent half the off-season trying to explain to you and your posse, the challenges of new staff, new system, and cultural issues left by the former staff. You've clearly ignored those conversations, and at this point, it only shows your ignorance.

We smashed Southern Alabama like we were supposed to. It's never good enough for most of you when we win those games, but boy if we lose them its wah wah wah all the way home. It's a lose lose situation for the Huskers. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

We went to Miami, another toss up game in many eyes all off season. We come out ugly, we fight back and make it a hell of a game and lose in overtime. Why is your world falling all around you after that loss? I don't get it? What do you mean what happened? We went to Miami, battled the elements, got exposed by a QB named Kaaya who is going to expose a lot more defense than ours, which happened to be in only their third game in this system. But a near comeback, a hell of a team effort, and a brilliant game by our QB and instead of talking about any positives, your digging up months old quotes trying to throw sh#t in peoples faces.

The fact that you're a mod on this board demonstrates the direction of this board. Sad.

So what happened? Banderas has been hurt all season. Micheal Rose Ivey has had one game. Dedrick Young is a rising FRESHMAN. Our CB's have never played in a system like this. J. Rose, one of those starting CB's was suspended first game. Our starting DE Gangwish got injured first game. We've been beat up and injured all over the place on defense, plus suspensions. We've got talent, but the inexperience in some spots is evident. Kalu, Cockrell, and Williams have never been tested like this. Valentine was injured last game. There's a few "what happened's" for ya.

Offensively, what is there to whine about? We do have a ton of talent offensively, and even then, our greatest talent got hurt in the offseason. DPE is a game changer. I'd bet everything I own that DPE healthy in BYU or Miami makes atleast one play on special teams or offense that probably changes the outcomes of those games.

And even still, we lost two games by a total of 8 points. Good lord, what the hell are some of you so fragile and negative about? This is football. Those games could've went either way, they just didn't go our way and all of a sudden everybody sucks?

This staff is rebuilding this team, it's gonna take maybe more than three games, and yet the good things about this team are already evident as hell to some of us.

The guys like you, and the handful of others running around this site pissing on everything, has gotten so stale so fast. Ban my a$$ if you don't like what I'm telling you Saunders, because I think you're one of the most subtle sneaky Bo-Lovers on this site. You're good about how you do it, and you think you're sly about it, but I don't think you are at all. And then you go back and quote stuff like this to get a haha moment at the expense of people who are trying to spread some positivity, and really I think you're the one looking foolish.

 
Man... Well. This comment isn't going to be heard, but screw it. Here goes!

A bad coaching staff doesn't help a team comeback from 23 points down in one quarter.

A bad coaching staff allows that 23 point comeback to happen.

 
The guys like you, and the handful of others running around this site pissing on everything, has gotten so stale so fast.
I think you are projecting.

You wanted so badly for the Huskers to be 3-0 so you could rub everybody's face into the dirt who didn't rally around Riley's hire. It was 102% "us or them, no midlle ground" for some. Now Riley is 1-2 and that you feel your own face being ground in the dirt even when nobody has you by the neck. Shakespeare's comment about what a jaundiced eye seeing yellow and all that.

Bo had to go because there was no keeping him. In that time of his prolonged exit, I saw a darker side of Husker fandom that was none too flattering, and i think it is still apparent in posts such as yours, but that might be my own particular shade of yellow that I'm seeing.

Fans aren't "owed" anything. They buy their tickets, paint their faces, put on their jerseys, and they get what they get. Don't like it? Go fishing instead. That's what I suggest. Being a fan for 30 years doesn't mean some cornerback or coach or the administration "owes" you anything except the space in the bleachers your ticket guarantees.

I like posting, bad or good, win or lose, with or without Pelini. I am interested to see what anybody else posts, but I am not emotionally invested in what happens in a game or what is said about it and find it slightly puzzling that people let it dictate their feelings to such an extent.

 
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