Did Bo concentrate too much on scheme?

[NUpolo8]

Sker aint lying, but he seems to be greatly exaggerating the importance of this, cuz frankly I, as well as many others probably, dont (and shouldnt) give a sh#t.

The tension between Osborne and Perlman is hurting the football program.

Both parties (yes, i said BOTH. Take 2 to tango) should let it go then. Get over it.

It's not just Osborne, it's the football program. I've heard (and read) current and former players allude to Harvey's axe grinding.

If the football players are actively worried about the chancellor, then their focus is way off or they're being fed something they shouldn't be by a coach.

You can apply that to guys on the team, not guys that graduated a decade ago.

Not necessarily, we've had coaches with questionable motives for awhile, including. Bo Pelini in 03.

So what about the Osborne guys?

Considering Perlman wasn't an interim chancellor until 2000 and was officially named in 01, I'd say you're alluding to something else.

No... you're saying that the players are being brainwashed (fed information) by coaches with questionable motives, because they worked for Harvey. Hence my asking if players under Osborne were subject to that, since there are those who share the same opinions.

No, I'm saying you're talking out of your a$$ and are wrong. Try to keep up.

You're welcome to have your opinion, sans personal attacks. But off the top of my head, Frazier, Vrzal, Foreman, Moore, and Zatchka (all guys I listen to on podcasts) have said one way or another, that there's some issues with Harvey, his ego, and the football program.

It's so hard to keep up when those guys are grudge holding has beens who need to move on because they're hurting the team and when they're sages with you guys.
Any my opinion remains that Perlman isn't the problem.

 

[Saunders]

Edit: not even worth arguing at this point.

 

[Redux]

Well Im glad this topic turned out such a fun response

 

[darkhorse85]

Sker aint lying, but he seems to be greatly exaggerating the importance of this, cuz frankly I, as well as many others probably, dont (and shouldnt) give a sh#t.

The tension between Osborne and Perlman is hurting the football program.

Both parties (yes, i said BOTH. Take 2 to tango) should let it go then. Get over it.

It's not just Osborne, it's the football program. I've heard (and read) current and former players allude to Harvey's axe grinding.

If the football players are actively worried about the chancellor, then their focus is way off or they're being fed something they shouldn't be by a coach.

You can apply that to guys on the team, not guys that graduated a decade ago.

Not necessarily, we've had coaches with questionable motives for awhile, including. Bo Pelini in 03.

So what about the Osborne guys?

Considering Perlman wasn't an interim chancellor until 2000 and was officially named in 01, I'd say you're alluding to something else.

Yeah but Osborne's guys became Solich's guys while Pearlman was Chancellor. What do you have to say about THAT?!?!

Very VERY few. The 2001 5TH YEAR seniors wouldve been the only Osborne guys to have played during the Perlamn chancelling era.

Who says Dahrran Diedrick didn't have CLOUT?

What about Troy Hassebroek and Ben Zajicek then?

I'm a little slow today thanks to all those MLK barley pops yesterday. Can you guys explain these last two comments? I'm just tryign to catch up with my lurking and it doesn't work so well if I'm not tracking it all. I'll be a fresh lurker tomorrow, I promise.

 

[True2tRA]

Gotta have guys play within the system, period.

When Bo had the horses, his defenses were absolutely SICK. There were games and whole stretches of seasons where his defenses just crushed opponents. His scheme was solid and earned him respect and a pretty penny.

Personally I believe that unless he had the right horses, his scheme could be exposed. Or, if a matchup on a certain player favored the opposition it was exposed. If a player busted a play, it was exposed.

In college ball, a missed assignment will happen quite often; or a player might not have a good matchup. So yeah, Bo's scheme was brilliant and Bo's scheme was suspect. When it was on, it was juice. When it was off--- he gets fired.

He needed the horses and at times he had em and it was fun. But in college you have too much turnover for his scheme.

Any defense with Ndmakong Suh on it is probably going to have success. DT is the best place to have your best player. Once in a lifetime player really. LaVonte David covered up a lot of issues in his own right also. Probably why he broke records.

I'd be willing to bet you a lot of money that Ndamukong Suh and LaVonte David were playing outside the scheme more often than they were playing within it.

Nice making a bet that nobody has the ability to prove either way.

Well I wouldn't say "nobody" could but it would probably be difficult, you're right. Extensive knowledge about the players duties or assignments during games would probably tell you whether they were doing their job or not. As much as I've tried to learn about Bo's schemes, I never really got a good grasp on all of it. Too much to understand and too many variables.

I always thought simply from watching the games that Suh seemed to be willing to break contain more than most guys ever did. He seemed to be willing to get upfield and force pressure which honestly doesn't ever appear to be part of Bo's gameplan.

Same with LaVonte David. He seemed far too aggressive to be playing in Bo's scheme. Chasing the guy with the ball? Who does that? Shedding blocks and blowing up plays. Shooting through gaps instead of "spilling".

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe these were just 2 of the 5 guys that actually ever "got it" and that was how it was supposed to look.

I'm glad that's all you took from my comment though. If all you're going to do is drop in every once in awhile and nitpick my posts, then please, add me to your ignore list. This seems to be the only times you ever drop in on my discussions is to do this crap.

My point really had nothing to do with an actuall bet. Poor choice of words on my part.

 

[admo]

Gotta have guys play within the system, period.

When Bo had the horses, his defenses were absolutely SICK. There were games and whole stretches of seasons where his defenses just crushed opponents. His scheme was solid and earned him respect and a pretty penny.

Personally I believe that unless he had the right horses, his scheme could be exposed. Or, if a matchup on a certain player favored the opposition it was exposed. If a player busted a play, it was exposed.

In college ball, a missed assignment will happen quite often; or a player might not have a good matchup. So yeah, Bo's scheme was brilliant and Bo's scheme was suspect. When it was on, it was juice. When it was off--- he gets fired.

He needed the horses and at times he had em and it was fun. But in college you have too much turnover for his scheme.

Any defense with Ndmakong Suh on it is probably going to have success. DT is the best place to have your best player. Once in a lifetime player really. LaVonte David covered up a lot of issues in his own right also. Probably why he broke records.

I'd be willing to bet you a lot of money that Ndamukong Suh and LaVonte David were playing outside the scheme more often than they were playing within it.

Nice making a bet that nobody has the ability to prove either way.

Well I wouldn't say "nobody" could but it would probably be difficult, you're right. Extensive knowledge about the players duties or assignments during games would probably tell you whether they were doing their job or not. As much as I've tried to learn about Bo's schemes, I never really got a good grasp on all of it. Too much to understand and too many variables.

I always thought simply from watching the games that Suh seemed to be willing to break contain more than most guys ever did. He seemed to be willing to get upfield and force pressure which honestly doesn't ever appear to be part of Bo's gameplan.

Same with LaVonte David. He seemed far too aggressive to be playing in Bo's scheme. Chasing the guy with the ball? Who does that? Shedding blocks and blowing up plays. Shooting through gaps instead of "spilling".

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe these were just 2 of the 5 guys that actually ever "got it" and that was how it was supposed to look.

I'm glad that's all you took from my comment though. If all you're going to do is drop in every once in awhile and nitpick my posts, then please, add me to your ignore list. This seems to be the only times you ever drop in on my discussions is to do this crap.

My point really had nothing to do with an actuall bet. Poor choice of words on my part.

David was capable of hitting guys at LOS or behind it, excelling in one-on-one tackling, running down the ball carriers from sideline to sideline with quickness and power, and a knack for playing with aggressiveness. He was awesome. I think Bo's strategy on defense has a heavy emphasis on protecting against the big pass play while expecting those one on one tackles to happen every time. Instead of NFL talent on the field like David or Suh, we saw a lot of one arm tries and over pursuing. Especially with replacement/new guys. Saw some slow response and hesitation which lead to 5 yard gains before a LB makes a tackle attempt. Didn't see a lot of defenders around the ball much, like swarming and gang tackling. Mostly one on one - get him or whiff. College kids.

Blitzing, QB hurries, knockdowns, sacks and throwing the bones was not the identity of his team. Nor was stopping the run dead in its tracks with a ball hawking front 7.

It was always "don't give up the big pass play", execute the game plan and once the other team is in the read zone, the advantage is that the field shrinks. NFL strategy.

And it seemed to take players 25+ games before they started to really get it. Some sooner, and some later. By the time they did, and things looked good out there, they graduated. New guys come in, and repeat the slow painful strenuous learning process all over again.

 

[Count 'Bility]

Sker aint lying, but he seems to be greatly exaggerating the importance of this, cuz frankly I, as well as many others probably, dont (and shouldnt) give a sh#t.

The tension between Osborne and Perlman is hurting the football program.

Both parties (yes, i said BOTH. Take 2 to tango) should let it go then. Get over it.

It's not just Osborne, it's the football program. I've heard (and read) current and former players allude to Harvey's axe grinding.

If the football players are actively worried about the chancellor, then their focus is way off or they're being fed something they shouldn't be by a coach.

You can apply that to guys on the team, not guys that graduated a decade ago.

Not necessarily, we've had coaches with questionable motives for awhile, including. Bo Pelini in 03.

So what about the Osborne guys?

Considering Perlman wasn't an interim chancellor until 2000 and was officially named in 01, I'd say you're alluding to something else.

Yeah but Osborne's guys became Solich's guys while Pearlman was Chancellor. What do you have to say about THAT?!?!

Very VERY few. The 2001 5TH YEAR seniors wouldve been the only Osborne guys to have played during the Perlamn chancelling era.

Who says Dahrran Diedrick didn't have CLOUT?

What about Troy Hassebroek and Ben Zajicek then?

If you did that off memory, I'm impressed.

Well, I did. And that aint nothin really.

Wasnt too hard though. These guys both have their claim to fame. Hassebroek was also Homecoming king in 2002, and Zajicek was beheaded by Vilma in the 2001 Rose Bowl.

 

[Count 'Bility]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

 

[Saunders]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

 

[Count 'Bility]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

Yeah, that's my point. Agreed. We were much MUCH more aggressive in a pass rush sense then. We didnt worry about the run. But in the BigTen we all a sudden had legit running game as well a legit running qbs to worry about and it to me just became too much to think about.

 

[Saunders]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

Yeah, that's my point. Agreed. We were much MUCH more aggressive in a pass rush sense then. We didnt worry about the run. But in the BigTen we all a sudden had legit running game as well a legit running qbs to worry about and it to me just became too much to think about.

It seemed we didn't even try run blitzing either though. How many times in Big ten play did our opponent convert on 3rd and short, with minimal effort on their part? Line up a yard off the ball, sort of get a push, and keep the ball carrier to 2-3 yards. It's like we just gave it away so the defense could try again to get them in 3rd and long.

 

[Count 'Bility]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

Yeah, that's my point. Agreed. We were much MUCH more aggressive in a pass rush sense then. We didnt worry about the run. But in the BigTen we all a sudden had legit running game as well a legit running qbs to worry about and it to me just became too much to think about.

It seemed we didn't even try run blitzing either though. How many times in Big ten play did our opponent convert on 3rd and short, with minimal effort on their part? Line up a yard off the ball, sort of get a push, and keep the ball carrier to 2-3 yards. It's like we just gave it away so the defense could try again to get them in 3rd and long.

That's the epitimy of bend-dont-break. We'll give the 3rd and short and make you work for another 3 plays, but youre not gettin the big play action or big play over the top.

 

[admo]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

Yeah, that's my point. Agreed. We were much MUCH more aggressive in a pass rush sense then. We didnt worry about the run. But in the BigTen we all a sudden had legit running game as well a legit running qbs to worry about and it to me just became too much to think about.

I agree with you both here. Big 12 was the goblin or peso - you know, the 3-4 defense using like 7 defensive backs in the formation. Speed, alignment, and our powerful d-line contained very well in that conference.

 

[admo]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

Yeah, that's my point. Agreed. We were much MUCH more aggressive in a pass rush sense then. We didnt worry about the run. But in the BigTen we all a sudden had legit running game as well a legit running qbs to worry about and it to me just became too much to think about.

It seemed we didn't even try run blitzing either though. How many times in Big ten play did our opponent convert on 3rd and short, with minimal effort on their part? Line up a yard off the ball, sort of get a push, and keep the ball carrier to 2-3 yards. It's like we just gave it away so the defense could try again to get them in 3rd and long.

That's the epitimy of bend-dont-break. We'll give the 3rd and short and make you work for another 3 plays, but youre not gettin the big play action or big play over the top.

I am anxious to see what this new defense can do. I like our talent a lot. And I feel some confidence in Bray, Hughes & Warren working together with these guys. An aggressive & attacking style defense sounds refreshing. Sure you can't always be awesome every play, and sometimes you'll make a mistake. But so do most teams because defending is tougher these days. Just hope we can take away the running game consistently, force them to pass, and get a sack in or two. Frustrate the QB that he has to make a perfect throw or he will get hit, and there is no running game.

I always felt that was the key to stopping tOSU with Braxton Miller, MSU, and obviously against Wisconsin. MSU had a decent passer, but those others were capable of being woeful at times.

 

[Count 'Bility]

Hey True. I was just apeaking with a friend the other day about Suh and his uncanny feel for the game. The guy just has a knack for knowing if "he can get there". Have you ever seen a dlineman or pass rusher stop and drop into coverage so to speak and read plays as much as Suh did here and even to this day? He just seems to ahve a knack and feel within his first step or two if he's gonna get there or not. And if not, he sits back and reads the ball or laterally runs the run play down. I think that plays a lot into your rogue theory with him. I think if he knew he was gonna get there, by gawd he was abandoning all contain responsibilities to do so.

But also, our pass rush became a lot less aggressive and "care-free" when we joined the big ten. For whatever reason, the balance seemed to completely throw our defense and staff off guard.

Going off of memory, in the B1G, we weren't nearly as aggressive as were in the Big 12. How many times did we corner blitz in the Big 12 vs the Big 10? Seems like we did it 3-4 times a game in the Big 12.

Yeah, that's my point. Agreed. We were much MUCH more aggressive in a pass rush sense then. We didnt worry about the run. But in the BigTen we all a sudden had legit running game as well a legit running qbs to worry about and it to me just became too much to think about.

I agree with you both here. Big 12 was the goblin or peso - you know, the 3-4 defense using like 7 defensive backs in the formation. Speed, alignment, and our powerful d-line contained very well in that conference.

We had 4 down most to all the time. Turner, Allen, Crick, Suh spelled by Meredith and Steinkuhler. Then in 2010 Meredith, Allen, Crick Steinkuhler spelled by Moore and Williams.

What Bo did was basically what McBride did in 1992-93. Give up two linebackers for the sake of speed, and played dime 90% of the time. If I remember right, Kansas St was really the only team that we would base up against, and Dillard in '09 and David in '10 became the only true linebacker on the field most of the time with Prince, Dennard, Gomes, and Hagg. The safeties changed from '09 to '10 with Asante and OHanlon leaving and Smith and Thenarse starting, but losing their jobs to Osborne and Cassidy midseason.